Dualism, the doctrine of a disassociated identity

[dcontroversal]

Hi dcontroversial,

I'm fairly new here so I don't know his general point of view nor yours. I only spoke to what I read. So maybe you know where he's coming from more so than I do.

I have the facts (it's the post I spoke to) and so based on the facts (what the OP wrote) my opinion is still that I think you're missing the point of what he shared only. Like I said, I'm new and maybe I wouldn't agree with everything he believes.

I can't speak to what he believes about we can't sin or what he means because I haven't read enough here on the site.

In my mind, we can't continue in continual sin because with a born again person, God just won't allow it. He'll convict us so that we'll repent. He'll send a loving brother or sister to speak into our lives. He'll have the church remove the sinner and no one is to have fellowship with him/her until they repent and then they can be restored to fellowship. His mercies are new every morning; great is His faithfulness.

No offense taken; you seem to be full of hate. If I thought a person was misunderstanding scripture, I'd be trying to have a civil discussion with him/her, trying to understand their point of view and share scripture. I'd be praying for someone if I thought they were following heresy, and try to win them over to God's point of view. I'd be motivated by love instead of hate. At some point it may be that fellowship needs to be cut off from someone, but if that were to happen, I'd still pray for them so they'd be restored to truth-motivated out of love for their soul.

You'll probably hate me too because I also believe that a person call fall away from the Lord. I could quote some scriptures, but I don't think they would help you. I'll just say that there will be a huge apostasy before the Lord returns. Jesus said it, not me. To apostasize means renunciation from a religion.

No need to respond to my post if you don't want a civil discussion, a discussion in brotherly/sisterly love. So sad, really, when we can't be motivated out of love when we converse in a CHRISTIAN forum.

I wish you well - may we all come to the knowledge of the truth.

Hang around long enough and you will see how deceptive he really is...and no...you do not have all the facts....being emphatic does not equal hate...so..you judged motive based upon mere words........and no where have I implied a life of continual sin!

 

[wanderer6059]

amen but we are not perfect at conversion, our spirit, that inner man is renewed, but not out soul and flesh. that is where the presses of sanctification starts. are walk in this christian life starts with the training of our mind, renewing it and gaining mastery over the flesh. we will grow spiritually in areas yet still be carnal in others.

 

[PeterJens]

a) Satan quotes scripture and every day false teachers like yourself will twist, embellish and take scripture out of context so your statement means nothing
b) Many have proven you are in error dia the truth
c) You trust your works and self righteous deeds and are deceived about your own sin.

If you are gonna quote me, give the whole quote

And still waiting on a simple yes or no..DO YOU SIN?

YES OR NO!

The answer to this question is given by Paul

I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
1 Cor 4:3-5

If you go on to a building site halfway through do you ask, how many snags will you
have at the end? You do not know until you are there.

If you ask how many issues you have at the moment, a list would appear but it
would be different tomorrow.

Everything is always are you walking with Jesus, or alone?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Here is another sign of this disassociated identity doctrine, and that is the way they word things, like catch phrases. When you understand the main error in their thinking, then these little catch phrases make sense in light of their false grace doctrine.

Because they believe they are righteous and perfect spirits, but without any control over or need to stop sinning, they say things like this......

Originally Posted by Grace777x70 “Paul told the Corinthians who they were in Christ ( they were complete in Him..they had His righteousness, holiness, redemption, wisdom..the mind of Christ .etc) before telling them what that life should look like outwardly....they were in divisions..comparing themselves with each other..having sex with prostitutes...with each other...They were still righteous while doing all these things.”

So this thinking that you are still "righteous" while doing abominations and sinful actions makes them say things like this....

Originally Posted by BenFTW
All in all, why do we even want to sin less at all? VVhat gain is there in sinning less? The question, I guess, is what significance is there in us sinning less or even not at all?

Ok, now that understand this twisted reasoning and mentality then you can try to grasp some of their catch phrases, like not being sin conscious, but Christ conscious. And saying things like you need to know or realize your real, or true identity. Notice below....

Originally Posted by Grace777x70 Religion says to change you must see your sin! Jesus says to change you must look away from your sin and see Him!


"Here is how the " fruits " of righteousness is manifested outwardly in a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious.


“One can be self-focused or Christ-focused.”




“Sin to me is not seeing the life of Christ that is in the real us.” “Even if we do sin - we are still "in Christ".



“What the devil wants to do then is to get you to focus on your condition instead of your position in Christ.”


“Jesus proclaims to you what is right with you in spite of what is wrong with you because He has covered you with His perfection.”


“Our body is simply a house for our new man but it still has the flesh/power of sin in it. This is not our identity. ( which is why we will get a new body )”



“We are in the flesh...but the flesh is not the real us..the body is our earth suit if you will...the body itself is not evil..it's the flesh that is in it that also has the power of sin in it....and this "sin" in our flesh will remain until we die physically .

If we don not understand our true identity in Christ..our whole Christian walk will be stunned”

So basically they are saying ignore your sinful condition and your evil conscience concerning sinful thoughts,(that to them is not your real identity) as they attribute that conscious reality as the work of the Devil. Which is why they will call those who reprove their errors in thinking and false doctrine as the works of the Devil.

But this false doctrine which tells them to ignore their sinful actions and evil thoughts will eventually lead to have their conscience seared, and their hearts completely hardened with pride toward the True grace and gospel message in Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 4:2
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

 

[Grace777x70]

Post #124 is complete nonsense... no one is denying what sin is.....what people are saying is that if you keep your eyes on Jesus only and all that He has already done for us in the cross and resurrection and the fact that we died with Christ and have risen with Him and now sit with Him at the right hand of the Father - His life and grace will transform us by the Holy Spirit just like Paul says in 2 Cor. 3:17-18

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

We believe that grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and to live sensibly and godly in this present world like we have said over 100x times. Titus2:11-12

Post #124 is just showing that we have limited knowledge of the work of Christ in the new creation. The blood of Jesus and the gospel of the grace of Christ speaks of better things and the natural mind of man cannot understand spiritual truths as it is foolishness to him.

"Awake to righteousness" that is in us in Christ - and sin not.

See who you really are in Christ in the new creation - created in righteousness and holiness. As we have received Christ our Lord - so we walk in Him. He is our righteousness. This all comes about by grace through faith in Christ alone.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Here is their false grace message in a nutshell. They say while being under the grace of God and in Christ sin still has dominion over you.

The True gospel of grace message says being under grace and in Christ sin shall not have dominion over you.

Big difference between these 2 doctrines.

 

[FlSnookman7]

Not sure where you got the idea sin has dominion over any saved person. Once saved we are a new creation, dead to sin and free from the law.

 

[Grace777x70]

This should help to know the difference between "sin" - the noun used in Romans 6:14 "sin shall not have dominion over you" and "sinning" the verb which is the action of sinning.

In order to understand Romans 6-7 ( and then finally chapter 8 where the Spirit comes in ) we need to understand the difference between "sin" and "sinning".

Not knowing this leads to all kinds of doctrines like this "sinless perfection in the flesh" one that some try to promote. This doctrine will upset the faith of the young Christian and really in the end promote turmoil in their minds and ship-wreck their faith.

This will also create a works-righteousness mindset instead of a faith-righteousness one that is completely fixed on Christ's completed work for the believer.

We will always have the flesh with us and anyone that says they never are "sinning" have a very low opinion of the holiness of God and are only thinking of the "biggie sins" which they don't do.

Malice and slander and things like these ( Gal. 5:21 ) are just as destructive as living a homosexual lifestyle.

There is a difference between sin the noun and sinning the verb.

Set free from sin does not mean set free from sinning entirely the rest of one's life. Sin the noun has been quarantined in the flesh which is why the Holy Spirit circumcised our hearts ( where He lives and is joined as one in the spirit with us) from the body of flesh.

Romans chapter 6 and 7 uses the noun "sin" 48x times ( which speaks of the law of sin that is in our flesh ) and only once as the verb which is the action of "sinning".

Here is what Vine's describes this "law of sin" that is in the flesh - acting through the members of our body when we yield to it.

"a governing principle or power, e.g., Rom. 6:6; "(the body) of sin," here "sin" is spoken of as an organized power, acting through the members of the body, "

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.


The set free from sin ( the noun ) is relating to not having to be subject anymore to the flesh because we have been sealed in our spirit in our inner man in Christ. - the new creation in Him.

The law of sin is in the flesh and will be there until we leave this earth. Romans 7:19-22. which is where we are not "in the flesh" as Paul says in Romans 8:10 : BUT "in the Spirit".

Colossians 2:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Now we are to walk by the Spirit so that we will not fulfill the flesh to do "its" desires. Romans 6:13

As our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ and what He has already done for us - the Holy Spirit transforms us and we live a holier life. This is all God's work but we participate in it with Him. ( sometimes this is also called the saving of the soul which the mind is a part of )

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Not sure where you got the idea sin has dominion over any saved person. Once saved we are a new creation, dead to sin and free from the law.

Have you been reading any of these quotes from your sect members? Clearly those who say they sin every day, and some even make claim to willfully sinning every day, most certainly they are the servants of sin per the words of God, with sin having dominion over them.

Originally Posted by ladylynn
We all "sin willfully" in our hearts and minds every day.

Originally Posted by Grace777x70
Theses sins are no different then one who is practicing homosexuality sins. You and all of us will be blessed to know that if you died tonight - the blood of our Lord Jesus would still be cleansing you of your sin and if you are in fact in Christ - you would be in His presence despite your wilful sinning.

This truth applies to all of us.”

This is the promotion of wilful sin and still be saved. These same persons claim to be righteous and perfect and under grace while doing wilful sinful abominations.

Originally Posted by Grace777x70 “Paul told the Corinthians who they were in Christ ( they were complete in Him..they had His righteousness, holiness, redemption, wisdom..the mind of Christ .etc) before telling them what that life should look like outwardly....they were in divisions..comparing themselves with each other..having sex with prostitutes...with each other...They were still righteouswhile doing all these things.”

 

[Grace777x70]

Those that live in malice and slandering of others in the body of Christ are as guilty of the works in the flesh just like the practicing homosexual. The answer is to preach and teach the grace and love of God which is in the gospel as it is the only thing that has the power for salvation which is found only in Christ Himself. Rom. 1:16-17

I have written about this a few times but we need to look at how Paul dealt with the Christians at Corinth.

Paul told the Corinthians who they were in Christ..then corrected their behavior...he didn't say you were all unsaved now...

Like "sinless in the flesh perfection" people try to make us to believe.

..he told them who they were in Christ..saints..they have His righteousness, holiness..etc.

These are the very same people that were causing divisions and strife amongst each other. Men going to have sex with the temple prostitutes, believers taking each other to court, people getting drunk at Communion..etc.

Paul called them carnal Christians and yet at the same time called them "saints" - that they have the righteousness of God, that they were complete in Him, that they had the mind of Christ, that they were holy...etc...that Christ was confirmed as being in them.

Then Paul goes on to say in verse 8 " who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Paul gives them their true identity in Christ then goes on to describe what this true life in Christ will look like. Paul says later on to "Awake to righteousness and sin not" This is a call to see who you are in Christ and in seeing this - sin will fall off of us like dead leaves off a tree.

As can be seen by the letter Paul said to the 1 Corinthians.

Paul told them who they were in Christ...then corrected their behavior...he didn't say you were all unsaved now or that because they were sinning that they were not born of God like some people try to teach.

( without understanding the new creation in Christ - this "sinning" part will throw people off because they don't understand what is being done by giving in to the flesh and what the new man is Christ really is. )

Paul told them who they were in Christ...Here are 7 things that Paul confirmed as truth in the believers in Corinth before he went on to correct their behavior.


1) The Corinthians have been sanctified in Christ Jesus,

2) The Corinthians were now saints by calling

3) The Corinthians in everything were enriched in Him,

4)The Corinthians had the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in them,

5) The Corinthians had that God will also confirm them to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ

6)The Corinthians had that it was by Gods doing that we are in Christ ( Not our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness and holiness )

7) That because the Corinthians were in Christ - Christ Himself became to them wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption


1 Corinthians 1:1-9 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,

[SUP]5 [/SUP] that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,

[SUP]6 [/SUP] even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,

[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

[SUP]8 [/SUP] who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,


Preach and teach the grace of Christ as it is the only think that teaches us how to live godly in this world. Titus 2:11-12. The word of His grace is the only thing that is able to build us up and that gives us the inheritance that is ours in Christ. Acts 20:32

 

[FlSnookman7]

Isit: You wont believe this but I am truly sorry that you are still enslaved by lies. I honestly pray that one day soon your eyes will be opened to the fact of what Jesus accomplished on the cross. I hear only anger and condemnation from you post after post. I would guess you either attend the church of Christ or are a catholic as both seek to keep their members in line by twisting scripture to keep people relying on the religious institution and not on Jesus.

The gospel Jesus gave paul is one of grace. I pray now that soon you will have your eyes opened to the truth of that gospel. I understand it is a very difficult thing to set aside pride and ego and have faith that we are who God says we are, I too struggled with that for a long time. Once you are able to rely on Jesus righteousness and not self righteousness you will not only stop calling people you do not know names but you will find the peace and joy that only Jesus can give.

Praying for you and wishing you a happy thanksgiving.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Isit: You wont believe this but I am truly sorry that you are still enslaved by lies.

Actually I was anointed by God to preach the true gospel message of Jesus Christ by His Son being revealed in me, and by the Spirit of Truth. What I constantly see from this is cult following is false accusations saying I am teaching lies, and heresy, that I am of the Devil, and am antichrist etc. etc. etc. But yet they never give any proof by the words of God where what I teach is lies, as they falsely accuse.

And they never give any proof from my own quotes and words where I have spoken contrary to the words of God. Basically their only defense against the Truth according to the words of God is to slander and falsely accuse the messenger who brings them, in hopes others will believe their wolf pack tactics of repeating the same lies, slander and false accusations over and over again.

I provide plenty of proof from the words of God that what I teach is true, and I give plenty of proof from your fellow cult members own words by quotes to prove you guys have been deceived and believe is a false gospel message of wilful sin and still be saved.

I even provided proof that you yourself have fallen to the deception of this disassociated identity doctrine in the OP, with your own words here--->>>>

Originally Posted by FlSnookman7 “The new creation that I am, the true identity of my being since I was saved DOES NOT SIN. This flesh and soul may still sin but that is NOT who I am any longer.”

So, at least I provide proof.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

ISIT, I see that you are preaching the good news.
I think what MOST disturbs some people is that you don't cover everything at once (which is impossible).
I think that they think that since God still communes with them, even though they were very imperfect in the beginning and still see many impurities in themselves (which is the work of the Holy Spirit to show us the truth) - but He still communes with them and has not abandoned them, so they do not see what you say as being right. But you have posted elsewhere for me when I brought up that we GROW in faith and love as our minds are more and more renewed to think as God thinks about things. And they think that you are saying that we are not safe as He teaches and purges us. And since the Spirit confirms to their spirit all the time that they are a child of God, they think you are teaching wrong. They don't see where you give any room for the necessary growth. I honestly think that is the biggest push against what is quite clearly the teaching of very good news.

So given that you are a teacher, you have to address their concerns so they will understand and not be fearful, but bold to approach and learn from Him.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

ISIT, I see that you are preaching the good news.
I think what MOST disturbs some people is that you don't cover everything at once (which is impossible).
I think that they think that since God still communes with them, even though they were very imperfect in the beginning and still see many impurities in themselves (which is the work of the Holy Spirit to show us the truth) - but He still communes with them and has not abandoned them, so they do not see what you say as being right. But you have posted elsewhere for me when I brought up that we GROW in faith and love as our minds are more and more renewed to think as God thinks about things. And they think that you are saying that we are not safe as He teaches and purges us. And since the Spirit confirms to their spirit all the time that they are a child of God, they think you are teaching wrong. They don't see where you give any room for the necessary growth. I honestly think that is the biggest push against what is quite clearly the teaching of very good news.

So given that you are a teacher, you have to address their concerns so they will understand and not be fearful, but bold to approach and learn from Him.

In order to commune with God you must be born again of the Holy Spirit and abide in the Light of His Word, for in God there is no darkness at all. But many have been mislead by false doctrines of men that make them believe they are born again even when they are not, with no true change or conversion ever taking place. And these same false doctrines also make them believe they are the righteousness of God in Christ, even when they are still living in sin. Believing in the Truth according to the words of God has the power to save, not believing in the lies of the Devil.

A world that is living in darkness will be offended by the Light of the Truth, and will even resist the Truth and will not come to the Truth because they love the darkness more than they love the Light. Just as the world cannot see and receive the Spirit of Truth because they have been made blind by the spirit of this world, even many who claim to be of the Truth are yet still blind. If what I say is according to the Truth, and they do not see it "as right", then perhaps they are still in darkness believing in false doctrines and many of the lies of the Devil.

Because I speak out against sin many who still do sin will of course be offended in the message. But if they think they can still live in sin and rebellion towards God and His word and still have communion with God, I would say they are deceived in this false teaching. Because it is your sins that will separate you from God's presence, as sin is of the darkness and is not of the Light, as in Christ there is no darkness of sin.

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."

Hebrews 7:26
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

 

[FreeNChrist]

Thank God for the Cross.

 

[Persuaded]

In order to commune with God you must be born again of the Holy Spirit and abide in the Light of His Word, for in God there is no darkness at all. But many have been mislead by false doctrines of men that make them believe they are born again even when they are not, with no true change or conversion ever taking place. And these same false doctrines also make them believe they are the righteousness of God in Christ, even when they are still living in sin. Believing in the Truth according to the words of God has the power to save, not believing in the lies of the Devil.

A world that is living in darkness will be offended by the Light of the Truth, and will even resist the Truth and will not come to the Truth because they love the darkness more than they love the Light. Just as the world cannot see and receive the Spirit of Truth because they have been made blind by the spirit of this world, even many who claim to be of the Truth are yet still blind. If what I say is according to the Truth, and they do not see it "as right", then perhaps they are still in darkness believing in false doctrines and many of the lies of the Devil.

Because I speak out against sin many who still do sin will of course be offended in the message. But if they think they can still live in sin and rebellion towards God and His word and still have communion with God, I would say they are deceived in this false teaching. Because it is your sins that will separate you from God's presence, as sin is of the darkness and is not of the Light, as in Christ there is no darkness of sin.

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."

Hebrews 7:26
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

One again you are judging a person not being born again and living is sin because he honestly admits that he sins from time to time while implying you are sinless.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Have you been reading any of these quotes from your sect members? Clearly those who say they sin every day, and some even make claim to willfully sinning every day, most certainly they are the servants of sin per the words of God, with sin having dominion over them.





This is the promotion of wilful sin and still be saved. These same persons claim to be righteous and perfect and under grace while doing wilful sinful abominations.

We should be growing to spend longer and longer amounts of time walking in the Spirit without leaving off. As He renews our minds, purging from us our impurities, spots and wrinkles, walking more consistently in the Spirit increases. This is called abiding.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

One again you are judging a person

Nope, the words of God will judge those who do not believe in them...

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[JesusRules1]

As far as dualism where they might sin according to the flesh,but their spirit is not sinning so they are alright with God does not make sense,for the Bible tells us to abstain from sins of the flesh for that is what hurts our relationship with God.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It also does not make sense for all spirits go back to God who gave it regardless of how the person acted on earth,which does not matter if they were with God or not,for all people's spirits go back to God,so the spirit is not corrupt no matter how they acted on earth,for if it was corrupt concerning the heathen it would not go back to God.

as 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

It is obvious we have to abstain from sins of the flesh,and all spirits go back to God regardless of how the person acted on earth.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

In order to commune with God you must be born again of the Holy Spirit and abide in the Light of His Word, for in God there is no darkness at all. But many have been mislead by false doctrines of men that make them believe they are born again even when they are not, with no true change or conversion ever taking place. And these same false doctrines also make them believe they are the righteousness of God in Christ, even when they are still living in sin. Believing in the Truth according to the words of God has the power to save, not believing in the lies of the Devil.

A world that is living in darkness will be offended by the Light of the Truth, and will even resist the Truth and will not come to the Truth because they love the darkness more than they love the Light. Just as the world cannot see and receive the Spirit of Truth because they have been made blind by the spirit of this world, even many who claim to be of the Truth are yet still blind. If what I say is according to the Truth, and they do not see it "as right", then perhaps they are still in darkness believing in false doctrines and many of the lies of the Devil.

Because I speak out against sin many who still do sin will of course be offended in the message. But if they think they can still live in sin and rebellion towards God and His word and still have communion with God, I would say they are deceived in this false teaching. Because it is your sins that will separate you from God's presence, as sin is of the darkness and is not of the Light, as in Christ there is no darkness of sin.

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."

Hebrews 7:26
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

I just think...if you are a teacher, you need to find out the fear that is behind someones balking in an area and why a stronghold is not being pulled down but being clung to. We know we have been perfected in love when He casts out those fears in the areas we are struggling in and with, because perfect love casts out fear. But if you want to see irrationality in action, watch a person who has some area still of fear and mistrust as they literally deny a part of the good news and aren't even aware they're doing it. This doesn't mean they aren't a child of God. You can't just immediately say they are snakes. They need our help. Why else has God blessed us in growth and understanding if it's not so that we use what He has gifted to us to build them up?