Israel
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Nope, thats not all it means rogue, that was a poor pot shot post rogue!.
2 Timothy 3:16
Plus I love how the Jewish people realised the frame work of their relationship to God is covenental
Phil
2 Timothy 3:16
Plus I love how the Jewish people realised the frame work of their relationship to God is covenental
Phil
They cook in sulfur stew; to use the words of Keith Green.
Please allow me to give an example: If God saves some and denies grace to others, it is the exact same thing as withholding a Ring Buoy from a drowning man. It matters not how the man got himself in the deep water, it matters whether or not there be a way to rescue him. God can either deny him the Ring Buoy, or God can ask the man if he wants the Ring Buoy. If the man refuses the Ring Buoy and drowns, it's not God's fault. But if God refuses to help the man then God has chosen for him to die.
I personally can't believe that my God would deny any drowning man the possibility of rescue. Nor do I believe - if the man accepts and grabs hold of the Ring Buoy - that he is in any way contributing to his salvation, or somehow diminishing the Sovereignty of God.
Quest
We should be careful as Christians how we word things, because these are what they call "pot shots." Instead of attacking your opponents point of view, you are attacking your opponent, and as Christians we ought not to be doing this.
I think I am good at avoiding this myself, but please let me know if I have made this error at anytime.
Quest
Hi QT, I respect your opinion.
The problems lies in the fact that we are not free to make that choice, I'll try and explain. We are basically slaves to sin, we hate God, we are condemned already and filled with darkness, thats not to say there is no good in man, yet we are enslaved to the dark. something has to happen to change that. someone who is a slave to darkness and hates God, hates the light and loves darkness will not shout out to God, something has to happen, God Himself has to soften the heart of that man give him a new heart.
So the anaology of the sinking man doesn't really work, as the man drowning has a choice he is not a slave to the water nor is he a slave to the ring that could save him. yet we know that any man/woman drowning will always choose the ring that will save them... now just out of plain experience will tell you, and if your honest with yourself, will know that not all men will call out to the one who can save them (Jesus).. something has to happen to change that.. something in you has to change before you can call out in Faith.. God says in Jeremiah He will change their hearts from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh.
the heart needs regenerated, Titus 3:5, John 3:8.
I think we have to remember that all are condemned, Jesus says this himself..you are condemned already. it is only by grace that God saves any. No man, not one is good.. no man deserves God's grace, the wages of sin are death, but yet while we where still sinners Christ died for us...
It is only by grace that any are saved, I think this gets confused. we seem to think that we all deserve something, the only thing we deserve is death, and it is only by God's grace that any are saved.
I can personally testify that if God had not chose me..I certainly and most definatly would not have chosen Him.... He softened my heart.. I did not choose Him. I couldn't I was dead to sin already.
In Love
Phil
The problems lies in the fact that we are not free to make that choice, I'll try and explain. We are basically slaves to sin, we hate God, we are condemned already and filled with darkness, thats not to say there is no good in man, yet we are enslaved to the dark. something has to happen to change that. someone who is a slave to darkness and hates God, hates the light and loves darkness will not shout out to God, something has to happen, God Himself has to soften the heart of that man give him a new heart.
So the anaology of the sinking man doesn't really work, as the man drowning has a choice he is not a slave to the water nor is he a slave to the ring that could save him. yet we know that any man/woman drowning will always choose the ring that will save them... now just out of plain experience will tell you, and if your honest with yourself, will know that not all men will call out to the one who can save them (Jesus).. something has to happen to change that.. something in you has to change before you can call out in Faith.. God says in Jeremiah He will change their hearts from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh.
the heart needs regenerated, Titus 3:5, John 3:8.
I think we have to remember that all are condemned, Jesus says this himself..you are condemned already. it is only by grace that God saves any. No man, not one is good.. no man deserves God's grace, the wages of sin are death, but yet while we where still sinners Christ died for us...
It is only by grace that any are saved, I think this gets confused. we seem to think that we all deserve something, the only thing we deserve is death, and it is only by God's grace that any are saved.
I can personally testify that if God had not chose me..I certainly and most definatly would not have chosen Him.... He softened my heart.. I did not choose Him. I couldn't I was dead to sin already.
In Love
Phil
I can't say I respect your viewpoint, but you are a brother in Christ so I love ya anyway. I do respect your right to have that viewpoint though.
If God doesn't offer salvation, the result is that He condemns the man. That's the point I am making. The reason I am making this point is because you said something like: "God doesn't predestine men to hell." Wesley was saying that not offering a man salvation is the equivalent of predestining the man to hell, because God would understand the consequences of His decision.
Anyway, I hope you understand. I'm not going to push it any further.
Quest
If God doesn't offer salvation, the result is that He condemns the man. That's the point I am making. The reason I am making this point is because you said something like: "God doesn't predestine men to hell." Wesley was saying that not offering a man salvation is the equivalent of predestining the man to hell, because God would understand the consequences of His decision.
Anyway, I hope you understand. I'm not going to push it any further.
Quest
Yep, this is what I mean. If God predestines men to be saved He also predestines men to fry, bake, boil or broil (depending on your particular theological view. I think Keith Green believed in boil).
Also, I apologize if those exact words didn't come out of your mouth Phil. Maybe I just interpreted them from Shwagga's comment.
Quest
Also, I apologize if those exact words didn't come out of your mouth Phil. Maybe I just interpreted them from Shwagga's comment.
Quest
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S
Yes, the consistency within Calvinism I find is in double predestination, or hyper-Calvinist, they are very consistent with what they believe. However I think they are way off the mark, but they are at least consistent, they will admit God ordains everything to happen and ordains, from what you eat for breakfast to your salvation. What I mean by consistency is, if someone believes God preordained all things to happen before the foundation of the world, that means the sinner is only doing God's will, they are ONLY doing what God predestined them to do. There is no "other" lifestyle for them, because God ordained them to live that way.
It is very twisted and I do not agree by any means to any type of Calvinism, but it's at least consistent in terms of God's "secret will", and Calvinistic predestination. As Calvin said they are "doomed from the womb", which is an accurate description of hyper-Calvinism.
It is very twisted and I do not agree by any means to any type of Calvinism, but it's at least consistent in terms of God's "secret will", and Calvinistic predestination. As Calvin said they are "doomed from the womb", which is an accurate description of hyper-Calvinism.
I disagree with your above statement... the point is.. if you go to hell who is to blame for that? I would certainly sat yourself.
This is the point people find difficult, its actually very easy... its is only by God's unmerited mercy and grace that any at all are saved. I am sure you will agree with this? all men deserve death.
Anyhow I dont think we will agree on this point... and shwagga hasnt got a clue what he is talking about, his posts have shown that concerning Calvinism that is).
But I take my hat of to you for debating a usually heightened topic in a civilized and informed manner.
Phil
S
Phil you are missing my point, you say there is no one to blame except yourself because you sinned, I agree. But do they have the ability to repent? Do they have the ability to believe in Jesus? No they don't and this is why you won't answer any of my objections because you believe God ordained them to live the lifestyle they are living. So on Judgment Day, they can walk up to God and say I did EXACTLY what you ordained me to do.
Edit: and EVEN if they DID have the ability to believe and repent it would not matter, because "JESUS DID NOT DIE FOR THEM"! (limited atonement)
Edit: and EVEN if they DID have the ability to believe and repent it would not matter, because "JESUS DID NOT DIE FOR THEM"! (limited atonement)
S
The atonement was available to everyone who was willing to participate by human responsibility. That is how God said it up, where He requires human responsibility.
Now, are you a 4 pt. Calvinist? That would just continue to make you less consistent, mainly why would Jesus die for people who He doesn't WANT to save?
Now, are you a 4 pt. Calvinist? That would just continue to make you less consistent, mainly why would Jesus die for people who He doesn't WANT to save?
I will ask again, who was the covenant for in the OT, and what happened to the gentiles????
Now you have shown me you don't really know what you talking about. I think you have been reading to many websites shwagga. yep, I have responsibility aswel. we all do
I have to laugh at guys like you who think reformed theology is TULIP I think you need to learn abit more shwagga.
Phil
Now you have shown me you don't really know what you talking about. I think you have been reading to many websites shwagga. yep, I have responsibility aswel. we all do
I have to laugh at guys like you who think reformed theology is TULIP I think you need to learn abit more shwagga.
Phil
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