GREASY GRACE?

[AbigailZeke]

Jesus died nearly 2000 years ago and he is not dying again. there is pretty clear scripture about that actually. if you do know of the future present and past sins forgiven, please do share that one. because Myself i kinda like to stick with what the scripture says. and it does say " propititation of sins that are past" im just hazy on why we omit Jesus doctrine about forgiveness of our current and future sin. that also is really straight forward.

Well, I will start with, Hebrews 10.

1 The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would not the offerings have ceased? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all and would no longer feel the guilt of their sins.

See, Jesus' sacrifice has cleansed us once and for all.

 

[Cee]

Yes I see it as a two fold reality.

1. You are free because you are freed by the Son.
2. The truth sets you free.

I am free, but in order to know I'm free I need to know the truth.

The Spirit of Truth I'm sure we both agree is Holy Spirit? And Holy Spirit declares what Jesus declares.

Please note this:

john 14:15-17 "If ye love me, keep my commandments.16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;17Even the SPIRIT OF TRUTH; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

The Comforter/Spirit of truth abides with us forever. And we shall know Him, the Truth, as He is in us.

Okay so they know the Spirit of Truth because Christ is in front of them and they are unified. But "shall be in you" points to the new creation reality that is coming after Christ sends Him.

At it's core we are once again at a focal point difference, I believe believers will follow Jesus and non-believers will not.

Please note:

66After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

Once we truly know who Christ is there is no other place we desire to go.

As for the disciples who turned away?

John 2:19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.[SUP]d[/SUP] 21I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth.

1. They left because they were not of us (never of us).
2. If they were of them, they would have continued.
3. Those who are of them are anointed by the Holy One (Spirit of Truth)
4. These people know the truth (Spirit of Truth).
5. Those who know Him are of those who continue.

And He abides with us forever.

So what does the Spirit of Truth do?

1 Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

He brings understanding for the things that God has given us in Christ. Please note the "freely" part. This points to the cross. This points to the sacrifice of Christ. But we understand the "truth" by the Spirit of the Truth. A lot of people know the truth, but it's the Spirit who makes it understandable and understanding sets us free because whom the Son sets free is free.

C.

 

[Magenta]

Gimme cooookieeee.

 

[Miri]

okay magenta have you ever read the sacrifice of atonement law in Moses?

the lamb was brought to the priest, and the sins of the worshipper were transferred by Faith into the Lamb of atonement. Then the Lamb was slain for the persons sin. in this way the worshipper went away forgiven and clean before God. not because of anything apart from " God said if they did that, they were forgiven" they believed God, obeyed Gods commandment and were forgiven. forgiveness was in the first covenant, the diffrence is Jesus blood REMOVES OUR SIN. it is different than the mosaic Law of atonement because the animals blood didnt purify the nature of the sinner. they were forgiven, but not made righteous. thats what that single scripture in context explains.

notice they went away unchanged and remained a "stiff necked rebellious people" JESUS BLOOD TAKES SINNERS AND MAKES THEM OBEDIENT CHILDREN OF GOD EAGER TO DO THE WORKS COMMANDED BY GOD. Moses sacrificial system didnt offer that because God never said it in the Law. Jesus came to take those sins from us, to free us from them and creat ne beings filled with the nature of Jesus, who Love the idea of doing the things God commands.

Thats not quite correct, if the blood of Jesus makes us all obedient children, then what was the
passover lamb for.

It temporarily took away the wrath of God so that the 10th plague did not strike the
first born of the Israelites. It did not make them obedient, they did lots of things
wrong after. But they did have to believe and receive the wisdom to stay in doors and put the
blood on the door frame etc.The lamb sacrifices of the OT did not make people obedient, they
just atoned for that individual's sin until the next time. In other words the temporary blood
sacrifices of the OT were a temporary fix to a global problem - the fall of man.
They enabled fallen human beings to have a relationship with a holy God.

Then we zoom to the NT and Jesus the true Passover lamb atoned for the sin of the whole
world, past, present and future. This was a perfect sacrifice, there was no more need for
temporary imperfect sacrifices which only lasted a few hours.

Magenta is right the blood of bulls in the OT covered sin for a short time, but it did not
fully pay the price for sin. That price was paid for by Jesus. While we were in sin
Christ died for us! He did it without us asking, he did it without expecting gratitude, he
did it without expecting payment.

Hallelujah what a Saviour!

That free gift is available to all who will believe and receive and put there trust in Jesus.
But we don't become instantly obedient over night.

Does that mean we can do what we want once we have received Jesus as Saviour.

Absolutely not, but then if we truely accept Jesus the Holy Spirit takes up residence
inside of us and awakens the conscience. A true Christian is all too well aware of when
they do something wrong. The good news is the law of sin and death has been paid by Jesus.


Romans 8:1-3 NKJV
[1] There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not
walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life
in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3] For what the law could
not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness
of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,



Note it says no condemnation for those who walk according to the spirit.
That is important, it is the Holy Spirit who tells us when we do something wrong. It is
the Holy Spirit who pricks our conscience. All we have to do is say sorry Lord and move on.
If takes a life time of refining and growing in spiritual maturity, but praise God He travels
with us on that journey all the way. At times we might even rebel a bit but deep down
we know we need to say sorry and get back on track. (Parable of prodigal son for example).
Forgiveness of sin leading to eternal death was won on the cross. Sanctification takes a lifetime
of growth and experience, overcoming habits, mind sets, ingrained wordly attitudes, imposed
wrong family traits and values. Some people find it easier going than others and it is
something we should strive for, not because our good works saves, but because we want to
walk in close relationship with Jesus.

For people who say I can do as I please when I want after saying they have accepted Jesus
as Lord, I would say that they don't know Jesus and haven't been saved. But for souls who
are all too keenly aware of sin and strife to do the right thing looking to Jesus. God bless them
in their relationship with God, they will over come because they are already saved by the
blood of Jesus and they are part of the flock.


John 10:14-18 NKJV
[14] I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. [15] As the
Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. [16] And
other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear
My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. [17] "Therefore My Father loves Me,
because I lay down My life that I may take it again. [18] No one takes it from Me, but I lay
it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command
I have received from My Father."

 

[Cee]

Jesus died nearly 2000 years ago and he is not dying again. there is pretty clear scripture about that actually. if you do know of the future present and past sins forgiven, please do share that one. because Myself i kinda like to stick with what the scripture says. and it does say " propititation of sins that are past" im just hazy on why we omit Jesus doctrine about forgiveness of our current and future sin. that also is really straight forward.

Great question:

Here's one way I can answer it...

2 Co 5:14For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. 16From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.[SUP]b[/SUP] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, in Christ God was reconciling[SUP]c[/SUP] the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

0. All died, but all live in Christ (if they are in Him).
1. Paul doesn't know anyone according to the flesh (not even himself).
2. Our ministry is showing them God isn't counting trespasses against the world (or us).
3. Being reconciled: becoming the righteousness of God in Christ.

 

[followjesus]

I would like to ask you a hypothetical question. Say a person is ten years old and he gets saved. He's a pretty good guy. He was abused as a child and abuses his wife. He is diagnosed at the age of 25 with bipolar disorder an later with paranoid schizophrenia. He does some things that are unspeakable. Has he lost his salvation? Or is there a proviso for one who is mentally ill? Do you think such a one is condemned, although he once came to Christ as a boy?

lol first, no one is accountable for sin until they understand right and wrong. " He who knows the good he ought to do, and doesnt do it, sins" second each person is accountable for what they hear, that boy would have his own standard of accountability when he came to Christ as soon as we receive the spirit, there is no hiding anything from God is the thing. if i know im doing wrong, im sinning same with anyone else believer or not. also, you guys dont accept the forgivness taught by Jesus Christ who is the mediator of the covenant He died to bring to us.

forgive and you will be forgiven. " By the measure you use, it will be measured to you" a merciful man, will receive mercy AFTER THEY ARE IN CHRIST, beforehand Christ will accept the very worst of us, in Christ we abide in His doctrine, thats what keeps us in Him. john 15. to Keep the words of Jesus, doesnt mean one mistake or sin and your condemned at ALL. there is forgiveness taught by the Lord who preached the gospel of the Kingdom of God. Jesus is FULL of Grace, but grace does not lead us to look away from His teachings and commands, His grace is found in His doctrine.

if my brother sins and repents i take grace777 name and put that into effect. that teaching about 7times 77 times....that is a teaching meant to be applied by US to others. and that teaching is what keeps us perfect in Christ. the parable of the unforgiven debtor is very clear.

A man owes an unpayable amount to a certain Lord, He asks the Lord for time to pay. The Lord has compassion on the man and cancels His entire debt all He had owed the Lord is now forgiven completely. The man goes away with great Joy being free of debt. But on His way, He sees a man who owes Him a little bit of money and cant pay. So the man who was Just forgiven His great debt attacks the man because He cant pay Him back.

Well the Lord hears of the mans offense and is enraged because He Just forgave that guys massive debt, and the man leaves and refueses to forgive the others small debt. So the Lord calls Him in Berades Him for His actions and re instates the debt and throws the man in prison to be tortured. Jesus concludes this parable by saying " This is How my Father will treat all of you unless you forgive your brother"


My point is really simple, Jesus is Our Lord, He is the One God sent to teach us all things of Heaven and the Kingdom of Heaven. Why should I learn Jesus doctrine authorized above any other By God, tetified to by the entire Bible as the Only Lord and savior.....and then deny that it applies to chrtistianity? where is the basis for such a thing? if Jesus taught something, it is valid forever. He said it was, and His words are the Words of God in all authority. it would be foolish for a person to accept Jesus words, then deny them later thinking " well those dont apply theyre just my Lords words, not for me" i cannot ever do that and I will always tell Christians the same thing. Go to Jesus, Learn His words and keep them alive in you. this directly relates to the holy spirit Jesus words......


obedience is not like moses, Jesus taught Grace and truth, not Law. the Law ended with moses death, and was in authority until Jesus came as the mediator of the new covenant. 2 different things. One is Judaism ( those who trust in Moses) and Christianity ( those who trust in Christ) Obeying Jesus is a life long venture, we dont perfectly obey one day. he is gentle and patient, But He must be held as the Lord and His words Have to be the words we cherish, because Hos words are those of He who suffred so much.

His words are not what they seem, there is abounding Grace in them, and there is also Life that brings Life through righteousness. thats my firm and immovable belief. I just believe in Jesus because thats what Gods word says to do. His words are good enough for Me and they are life changing in every way when Faith is present.

 

[followjesus]

Great question:

Here's one way I can answer it...

2 Co 5:14For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. 16From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.[SUP]b[/SUP] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, in Christ God was reconciling[SUP]c[/SUP] the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

0. All died, but all live in Christ (if they are in Him).
1. Paul doesn't know anyone according to the flesh (not even himself).
2. Our ministry is showing them God isn't counting trespasses against the world (or us).
3. Being reconciled: becoming the righteousness of God in Christ.

good stuff honestly cee. really good stuff.

Lets consider what you are saying and add the first covenant, v the new. the flesh covenant focused on actions. and the spirit covenant that cleanses the heart, which is where actions begin.

we have 2 mediators written in the word of God. Moses to the hebrews led from egypt. and Jesus to the world led from sin.

The first covenant Law was sealed Here

deuteronomy 31:24-26 "And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were FINISHED, 25That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 26Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a WITNESS AGAINST THEE."

from this point on, nothing is to be added to the mosaic Law. it is put into effect when moses dies, and is the authority until the new mediator comes. Jesus. Now, a mediator in this reference is the one who is speaking between 2 parties God, and man. Moses first and Jesus Now and forever.

My issue with being Labeled as a "woprk for salvation" person is this, Jesus taught what He taught. from the beginning He says " I must preach the gospel of the Kingdom for this is why i was sent." He then begins teaching His disciples many things. Judgement diffrent from moses, righteousness, different from moses, Belief, different from Moses ect. He says many times I am speaking the words of God to you, listen to me. obey me hear my words and put them into practice. im fine with grace teachings, im not agreeable to those grace teachings that lead christians to believe Jesus Christ isnt for them, meaning His words arent for them. based simply on the fact that the bible is a testimony that Jesus is the one to hear and obey. the Christ.

People forget this "God said Let there be light, and light came forth" Jesus is the only One in scripture who is made equal to God and his word the annointed word of God from before Creation. Knowing this " if Jesus says it, it simply IS as He said it" because His words are not His own, butthey belong to the Father who sent Him. and simply because He is the only one called by the name of God. His words are made equal also by paul saying " He is the express image of God, sustaining all things by His powerful word"

Thois is my contention with false Grace teachings, and true Grace. Grace has to in every way agree with He who Gave it. and part of Jesus teaching, has condition and warning against Hearing and not accepting His words. to teach Grace is great, to teach Grace means Jesus doesnt apply is destructive and herecy. we all trulky do need to understand the first covenants purpose and the new covenants mediator. and as paul and Jesus, ans peter all write, " what the prophets and moses said of the Christ is of immense value.

No one who searches the prophets messianic writings about Jesus will not grasp the value of His words or misunderstand who we are to hear and obey above all others. There is much more than the Lamb who died to forgive our past, there is also the teacher that teaches Gods eternal Kingdom

 

[Cee]

Thank you - Let me address what you wrote:

First - I agree we need to follow Jesus' teachings.

Here is your contention:

"Thois is my contention with false Grace teachings, and true Grace. Grace has to in every way agree with He who Gave it. and part of Jesus teaching, has condition and warning against Hearing and not accepting His words."

Grace has to agree with Him who gave it - agreed.

About this statement:

Jesus has condition and warning against "hearing and not accepting His words".

I believe this is the Scripture you are referencing...

John 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

Well then who judges the one who doesn't keep Jesus' words?

Let's look at the verses before this one:

44And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.

Please note: Jesus' warning against not keeping His words is not believing in Him.

But what about working for eternal life?

Let's look at the what Jesus says about working in comparison to eternal life:

27Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”

Please note we are to work for His food which endures to eternal life.

They ask about this food:

28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”

His answer:

29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

1. Jesus says believing in Him is the work of God
2. Jesus says this is to get food that endures for eternal life
3. They wanted to know what to do, but Jesus told them Who to believe.

But there's one more command:

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

They had to FIRST know the love of God (believe in Him)....

John 3:16“For God so loved the world,[SUP]i[/SUP] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

1. First the disciples needed to know the love of God
2. Jesus says the love of God sent Him
3. Believing in Him is believing the One sent
4. Those who believe are not condemned
5. Those who do not believe are condemned already.
6. Jesus didn't judge people, they judged themselves by not believing.

Once the disciples were saved (and believed) they were forgiven... and by this forgiveness.... they loved.

Luke 7:47Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.

When we are forgiven much, we will love much.

And if we love Him, we will love one another, fulfilling His command and thus even the Law.

C.

 

[followjesus]

Sure, he can take us off the Earth, but that doesn't mean we are condemned- just not fruitful. Just like those Corinthians who died.

so in john 15 for God to cut out the uinfruitful branch and throw it into the fire to be burned ? that equates to him killing us on earth but were still saved? where ie that one found? to me its a very common misteaching that ive never really came across in scripture. esopecially when a person considers Jesus telling of His return, ( id say He Knows better than any other since He is the one returning and spoke Gods own Word. matthew chapter 25:31-46......i think the thing is to reconcile all the scriptures concerning a subject, and learn what is there, rather than omitting what doesnt agree to my own thinking or pre concieved doctrine.

My own belief though. Jesus teaches clearly concerning Gods Kingdom. if we first Believe His word, the rest is Gravy and all reconciles in Him. But ireally am not looking for arguments and am not condemning any of you folks. i figure its a bible discussion forum, im just not willng to ever omit JESUS and His word, because He says not to so many times, and also He suffered so much so that I can be called a child of God......because of this i will live with all i have to obey His word. and honestly it has changed so many things in my Life, im addicted now and cant ever go back to the bondage i used to know. I havesinned much in my past, and i am fully aware of the price paid for my forgiveness.

the "works on the cross" to me mean something different , His suffering is very real to me as if i witnessed His sacrifice firsthand, its as if i was standing at a distance Hearing His excruciating cries as He suffered in my place. because of the works of the cross, im commited to the one who willingly took my place even as far as believing His words and following after him in all ways i can muster. rather than freedom and rest, i find peace and joy in laying down the me that was lost and chasing afterthe image of JESUS. Ill never be finished, in my weary hour or in my waking moment i hear His words maybe im a nut lol idk but my mind is gone and the gospel is in its place.

I appreciate the convo, God bless. ( fyi my heart is always what people get so please dont consider this boasting or anything its just who i am now and makes me less than any other)

 

[88]

God only knows the heart of a person-----a sick person in that case is probably not responsible for their actions----still a child of God....Grace & Peace

 

[Grandpa]

good stuff honestly cee. really good stuff.

Lets consider what you are saying and add the first covenant, v the new. the flesh covenant focused on actions. and the spirit covenant that cleanses the heart, which is where actions begin.

we have 2 mediators written in the word of God. Moses to the hebrews led from egypt. and Jesus to the world led from sin.

The first covenant Law was sealed Here

deuteronomy 31:24-26 "And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were FINISHED, 25That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 26Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a WITNESS AGAINST THEE."

from this point on, nothing is to be added to the mosaic Law. it is put into effect when moses dies, and is the authority until the new mediator comes. Jesus. Now, a mediator in this reference is the one who is speaking between 2 parties God, and man. Moses first and Jesus Now and forever.

My issue with being Labeled as a "woprk for salvation" person is this, Jesus taught what He taught. from the beginning He says " I must preach the gospel of the Kingdom for this is why i was sent." He then begins teaching His disciples many things. Judgement diffrent from moses, righteousness, different from moses, Belief, different from Moses ect. He says many times I am speaking the words of God to you, listen to me. obey me hear my words and put them into practice. im fine with grace teachings, im not agreeable to those grace teachings that lead christians to believe Jesus Christ isnt for them, meaning His words arent for them. based simply on the fact that the bible is a testimony that Jesus is the one to hear and obey. the Christ.

People forget this "God said Let there be light, and light came forth" Jesus is the only One in scripture who is made equal to God and his word the annointed word of God from before Creation. Knowing this " if Jesus says it, it simply IS as He said it" because His words are not His own, butthey belong to the Father who sent Him. and simply because He is the only one called by the name of God. His words are made equal also by paul saying " He is the express image of God, sustaining all things by His powerful word"

Thois is my contention with false Grace teachings, and true Grace. Grace has to in every way agree with He who Gave it. and part of Jesus teaching, has condition and warning against Hearing and not accepting His words. to teach Grace is great, to teach Grace means Jesus doesnt apply is destructive and herecy. we all trulky do need to understand the first covenants purpose and the new covenants mediator. and as paul and Jesus, ans peter all write, " what the prophets and moses said of the Christ is of immense value.

No one who searches the prophets messianic writings about Jesus will not grasp the value of His words or misunderstand who we are to hear and obey above all others. There is much more than the Lamb who died to forgive our past, there is also the teacher that teaches Gods eternal Kingdom

The whole point of the first covenant, as you call it, is to show beyond a doubt that men cannot work to attain their salvation or righteousness. Their works cannot keep them saved nor keep them righteous.

The Lord Jesus, as our Saviour, is necessary to us because we cannot do it nor continue in it without Him.

All of your work of trying to be saved and keep your salvation should have brought you to the conclusion that you need help. Once you ask for help you know where that help comes from. Once you understand the scope and magnitude of the 'help' given you know to abide right there.

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

[/FONT]This rest is really important. Without receiving it you will constantly be thinking you will lose your salvation if you don't do enough work. You will constantly be pointing to the work that men must do.

Galatians 3:23 [FONT=&quot]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

That was all the work required in the first covenant.

Galatians 3:24-25
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Do you see? We aren't justified by our obedience to commandments. We aren't saved or kept saved by our obedience to commandments.

We are saved, and kept saved, by coming to Christ. By receiving His Rest. His Help.

This Rest and this Help is the essence of where our obedience and everything required for Salvation and Spiritual Blessing comes from. The Lord Jesus Christ. He gives this as a gift.

But if you have concluded that your best work is good enough for God then you have no reason to seek help.

Your best is not good enough. If it were, there would be no need for the New Covenant.

The Lord Jesus Christ is Grace. There is no way to teach Grace and teach Jesus doesn't apply, simultaneously. [/FONT]

 

[followjesus]

Thank you - Let me address what you wrote:

First - I agree we need to follow Jesus' teachings.

Here is your contention:

"Thois is my contention with false Grace teachings, and true Grace. Grace has to in every way agree with He who Gave it. and part of Jesus teaching, has condition and warning against Hearing and not accepting His words."

Grace has to agree with Him who gave it - agreed.

About this statement:

Jesus has condition and warning against "hearing and not accepting His words".

I believe this is the Scripture you are referencing...

John 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

Well then who judges the one who doesn't keep Jesus' words?

Let's look at the verses before this one:

44And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.

Please note: Jesus' warning against not keeping His words is not believing in Him.

But what about working for eternal life?

Let's look at the what Jesus says about working in comparison to eternal life:

27Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”

Please note we are to work for His food which endures to eternal life.

They ask about this food:

28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”

His answer:

29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

1. Jesus says believing in Him is the work of God
2. Jesus says this is to get food that endures for eternal life
3. They wanted to know what to do, but Jesus told them Who to believe.

But there's one more command:

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

They had to FIRST know the love of God (believe in Him)....

John 3:16“For God so loved the world,[SUP]i[/SUP] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

1. First the disciples needed to know the love of God
2. Jesus says the love of God sent Him
3. Believing in Him is believing the One sent
4. Those who believe are not condemned
5. Those who do not believe are condemned already.
6. Jesus didn't judge people, they judged themselves by not believing.

Once the disciples were saved (and believed) they were forgiven... and by this forgiveness.... they loved.

Luke 7:47Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.

When we are forgiven much, we will love much.

And if we love Him, we will love one another, fulfilling His command and thus even the Law.

C.

I appreciate the time you took on this one let me address some things

John 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

Well then who judges the one who doesn't keep Jesus' words?

Let's look at the verses before this one:

44And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.

I would understand it this way cee Believing in Jesus, includes believing His words as He stated His words.

im not sure why you stopped with the first verse, went back when He said this

John 12:47-50 "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that rejecteth me, and RECEIVETH NOT MY WORDS, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM in the last day. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I SHOULD SAY, and what I SHOULD SPEAK. 50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak."

Now take a look at dueteronomy 18:15-19 "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." ( acts 3, and acts 7 confirm this is Jesus)

do you see How moses wrote of Jesus and that Jesus is that promised prophet that v 19 states those who will not accept His words God will require it of Him? the Law of moses is filled with things just Like this that harmonize with the 4 gospels, and with pauls epistles and peters epistles, Jesus , peter and paul all speak of what is written in the prophets about the Christ to come. Paul actually says " I have spoken nothing but what the prophets and moses said would happen...

The prophets wrote so very much concerning Jesus, His death and resurrection, The authority of His word forever, immutable, unchangable, they wrote Much about the gentiles fully included in the new covenant which the Christ would bring, all the way up to malichi the last prophetic book in the bible where chapter 3 points to john the baptist and Jesus who would bring the covenant. The prophets and Law are all a foreshadow of Jesus the Christ.

I do disagree with some things in your post, which i feel is fine with you and is also with me. I think rather than decyphering we Just accept.

to reject His words, is to reject Gods commandment Given through Jesus those Given through Jesus are eternal and all authority, which is why rejecting His words ( teachings, principles, commands) are the Judge, thoise accepted are Life, those rejected are Judgement. to me its pretty simple on that one, But i am not confined to a few of pauls epistles for knowledge of Jesus, im coming from the prophets Long beforehand, the apostles after, and most importantly Jesus Own Words which are the very words God sent of the Kingdom of God.

as many grace teachers say " Jesus taught Law and only some of His words are meant for the church." this is absolutely not true. and is the very issue, really the ONLY issue I have with extreme Grace, because it leads to ommission of the truth that is only in Jesus. Jesus did not teach the Law of moses. Jesus brought the ministry ofthe new covenant promised for ages before by the prophets.

Jesus said these things

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

Luke 4:43 "And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent."

Matthew 4:23 "And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people."

Mark 1:14-15 "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15And saying, The TIME IS FULFILLED, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

there are others saying this also from the 4 gospels. I believe fully God Gave enough Grace that all can be saved. But Faith in Jesus is required, we have to accept the gospel that Jesus brought because the bible is testifying from start to finish, that Jesus is the One to hear and obey. Im thankful for Gods grace But when grace changes the gospel Given By Jesus, its not Gods grace.


i have a question for you off this topic.

hypothetically, say tomorrow you went and stole something, would you be guilty of sin ?

 

[followjesus]

The whole point of the first covenant, as you call it, is to show beyond a doubt that men cannot work to attain their salvation or righteousness. Their works cannot keep them saved nor keep them righteous.

The Lord Jesus, as our Saviour, is necessary to us because we cannot do it nor continue in it without Him.

All of your work of trying to be saved and keep your salvation should have brought you to the conclusion that you need help. Once you ask for help you know where that help comes from. Once you understand the scope and magnitude of the 'help' given you know to abide right there.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

This rest is really important. Without receiving it you will constantly be thinking you will lose your salvation if you don't do enough work. You will constantly be pointing to the work that men must do.

Galatians 3:23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

That was all the work required in the first covenant.

Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Do you see? We aren't justified by our obedience to commandments. We aren't saved or kept saved by our obedience to commandments.

We are saved, and kept saved, by coming to Christ. By receiving His Rest. His Help.

This Rest and this Help is the essence of where our obedience and everything required for Salvation and Spiritual Blessing comes from. The Lord Jesus Christ. He gives this as a gift.

But if you have concluded that your best work is good enough for God then you have no reason to seek help.

Your best is not good enough. If it were, there would be no need for the New Covenant.

The Lord Jesus Christ is Grace. There is no way to teach Grace and teach Jesus doesn't apply, simultaneously.

im not looking to argue with you anymore man.

if you dont see this

Paul acts 26:22-23 "Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

this peter acts 3:17-23 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’[SUP]a

[/SUP]and above all this

Luke 24:25-27 "Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."

if this doesnt tell you something different about the Law of moses, and the prophets concerning Jesus its because you are sticking way to close to paul, if you would Go to the Light of JESUS, you will grasp the gospel far more and understand paul. do you understand how many messianic prophecies are in the old testament? and also look here

john 5:46-47 "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

the Law of moses is all about Jesus Christ and the true Gospel of the Kingdom of God which began here with the mediator

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

Luke 4:43 "And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent."

Matthew 4:23 "And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people."

Mark 1:14-15 "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15And saying, The TIME IS FULFILLED, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Paul is a good guy, great apostle But He is a servant of the Lord. theres far more knowledge available in Gods word. that being said, im done arguing with the gracers. dont you guys also get tired of constantly the same argument? I would hope you all understand what i believe and where i stand firmly, i will not ever omit the words of Jesus Christ, or any of the massive amounts of truth available in Gods word. There is a covenant through Moses, and One through Jesus, paul was pointing people to Jesus Christ and the gospel, that was His soul purpose, to go testify to the Jews and also gentiles that Jesus is the Christ, and to repent and place faith in Jesus including every single teaching and command He gave, along with His death, resurrection and ascention. thats the gospel<<<<

and no, Jesus isnt grace, Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ the LORD who gives many commandments and brought much Judgement. the only one is Jesus.

 

[followjesus]

Well, I will start with, Hebrews 10.

1 The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would not the offerings have ceased? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all and would no longer feel the guilt of their sins.

See, Jesus' sacrifice has cleansed us once and for all.

though you will most likely ignore this take a look a little further in Hebrews 10 just after your post stopped

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

a scripture here or there doesnt tell the whole story is the thing you folks have to accept. though you are actually "cleansed" By Jesus words ( as much as gracers hate that part) but anyways Heres more for you to omit and explain how it doesnt apply to the church because of romans 8:1........

john 15:3-11 "You are already clean because of the WORD I HAVE SPOKEN to you. 4REMAIN in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and MY WORDS REMAIN IN YOU, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10IF YOU KEEP MY COMMANDS, you will REMAIN in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I HAVE TOLD YOU THIS so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete."

But these are only the words of the One who died for you.....The Lord, Son of God. Buit i guess if its not in "glorious grace" its not worthy to accept........

 

[Grandpa]

im not looking to argue with you anymore man.

if you dont see this

Paul acts 26:22-23 "Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

this peter acts 3:17-23 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’[SUP]a

[/SUP]and above all this

Luke 24:25-27 "Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."

if this doesnt tell you something different about the Law of moses, and the prophets concerning Jesus its because you are sticking way to close to paul, if you would Go to the Light of JESUS, you will grasp the gospel far more and understand paul. do you understand how many messianic prophecies are in the old testament? and also look here

john 5:46-47 "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

the Law of moses is all about Jesus Christ and the true Gospel of the Kingdom of God which began here with the mediator

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

Luke 4:43 "And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent."

Matthew 4:23 "And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people."

Mark 1:14-15 "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15And saying, The TIME IS FULFILLED, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Paul is a good guy, great apostle But He is a servant of the Lord. theres far more knowledge available in Gods word. that being said, im done arguing with the gracers. dont you guys also get tired of constantly the same argument? I would hope you all understand what i believe and where i stand firmly, i will not ever omit the words of Jesus Christ, or any of the massive amounts of truth available in Gods word. There is a covenant through Moses, and One through Jesus, paul was pointing people to Jesus Christ and the gospel, that was His soul purpose, to go testify to the Jews and also gentiles that Jesus is the Christ, and to repent and place faith in Jesus including every single teaching and command He gave, along with His death, resurrection and ascention. thats the gospel<<<<

and no, Jesus isnt grace, Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ the LORD who gives many commandments and brought much Judgement. the only one is Jesus.

When the Lord says come to me and I will give you rest do you think He really meant come to me and I will give you additional commands and work on top of the commands and work you are already supposed to be doing? Plus I will give you a bunch of warnings so if you don't do all of it, you are condemned?

Galatians 3:3 [FONT=&quot]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


[/FONT]I was wondering if you could receive any of this. The Lord says you must come to Him as a child. If you already know it all you can't exactly come to Him as a child. And if you don't believe that He has Power I suppose there is no reason in your mind to receive His Rest.

I wish there was something I could say to help you in some way.

Matthew 5:48 [FONT=&quot]Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.[/FONT]

 

[AbigailZeke]

though you will most likely ignore this take a look a little further in Hebrews 10 just after your post stopped

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

a scripture here or there doesnt tell the whole story is the thing you folks have to accept. though you are actually "cleansed" By Jesus words ( as much as gracers hate that part) but anyways Heres more for you to omit and explain how it doesnt apply to the church because of romans 8:1........

john 15:3-11 "You are already clean because of the WORD I HAVE SPOKEN to you.4REMAIN in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and MY WORDS REMAIN IN YOU, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10IF YOU KEEP MY COMMANDS, you will REMAIN in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I HAVE TOLD YOU THIS so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete."

But these are only the words of the One who died for you.....The Lord, Son of God. Buit i guess if its not in "glorious grace" its not worthy to accept........

Let's not get derailed. I thought your argument was that Jesus only forgave us our past sins. Scripture has proven that wrong, has it not?

Now, to discuss hyper grace and osas is for another day.

 

[John146]

though you will most likely ignore this take a look a little further in Hebrews 10 just after your post stopped

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

a scripture here or there doesnt tell the whole story is the thing you folks have to accept. though you are actually "cleansed" By Jesus words ( as much as gracers hate that part) but anyways Heres more for you to omit and explain how it doesnt apply to the church because of romans 8:1........

john 15:3-11 "You are already clean because of the WORD I HAVE SPOKEN to you.4REMAIN in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and MY WORDS REMAIN IN YOU, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10IF YOU KEEP MY COMMANDS, you will REMAIN in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I HAVE TOLD YOU THIS so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete."

But these are only the words of the One who died for you.....The Lord, Son of God. Buit i guess if its not in "glorious grace" its not worthy to accept........

Hebrews? I wonder who that's written to? Hmmmmm....

I wonder why it's after Paul's epistles to the church?

 

[followjesus]

Thank you - Let me address what you wrote:

First - I agree we need to follow Jesus' teachings.

Here is your contention:

"Thois is my contention with false Grace teachings, and true Grace. Grace has to in every way agree with He who Gave it. and part of Jesus teaching, has condition and warning against Hearing and not accepting His words."

Grace has to agree with Him who gave it - agreed.

About this statement:

Jesus has condition and warning against "hearing and not accepting His words".

I believe this is the Scripture you are referencing...

John 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

Well then who judges the one who doesn't keep Jesus' words?

Let's look at the verses before this one:

44And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.

Please note: Jesus' warning against not keeping His words is not believing in Him.

But what about working for eternal life?

Let's look at the what Jesus says about working in comparison to eternal life:

27Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”

Please note we are to work for His food which endures to eternal life.

They ask about this food:

28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”

His answer:

29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

1. Jesus says believing in Him is the work of God
2. Jesus says this is to get food that endures for eternal life
3. They wanted to know what to do, but Jesus told them Who to believe.

But there's one more command:

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

They had to FIRST know the love of God (believe in Him)....

John 3:16“For God so loved the world,[SUP]i[/SUP] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

1. First the disciples needed to know the love of God
2. Jesus says the love of God sent Him
3. Believing in Him is believing the One sent
4. Those who believe are not condemned
5. Those who do not believe are condemned already.
6. Jesus didn't judge people, they judged themselves by not believing.

Once the disciples were saved (and believed) they were forgiven... and by this forgiveness.... they loved.

Luke 7:47Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.

When we are forgiven much, we will love much.

And if we love Him, we will love one another, fulfilling His command and thus even the Law.

C.

Love. what is Love really?

1 john 3:16-24 "THIS IS HOW WE KNOW WHAT LOVE IS: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18Dear children, let us not love with WORDS OR SPEECH, BUT WITH ACTIONS AND IN TRUTH..19This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."


Love as He commanded us

"turn the other cheek
care for the needy"
be faithful to our spouse"
dont lust after the neighbors wife or any woman oir possession"
rid ourselves of Greed, malice, envy, gossip, slander
the teachings of Jesus are Gods Love taught to us. they are " lay down self for the sake of Jesus.

this is my point with His teachings. if we envy it wont lead to loving actions, lust same, greedy, same Jesus gosepl is the circumcision of the heart promised again " By moses" in His writings, and spoken of By paul in His. the gospel cleanses the heart through faith in the Word of God spoken By the Christ. the spirit of truth constantly reminds us of Jesus words, because those words teach us to Love as He did, one another and therefore God the Father in response to Jesus

 

[followjesus]

Let's not get derailed. I thought your argument was that Jesus only forgave us our past sins. Scripture has proven that wrong, has it not?

Now, to discuss hyper grace and osas is for another day.

right lol


so "sinning after receiveing the truth isnt future sin thats not forgiven then? if future was already forgiven How then do you reconcile the rest of hebrews 10? why is the person who sins, not still forgiven since Jesus was crucified and were forgiven forever regardless of our sin????????


its really okay friend, you dont even have to respond. i was Just having a decent discussion last night wuth cee and galtea....im not looking to argue with the grace mob honestly. Just will always believe Jesus above the others because i find understanding in the Light of Jesus, maybe it works different for you guys, thats between you and your savior have a good day and a merry CHRISTmas

 

[Galatea]

so in john 15 for God to cut out the uinfruitful branch and throw it into the fire to be burned ? that equates to him killing us on earth but were still saved? where ie that one found? to me its a very common misteaching that ive never really came across in scripture. esopecially when a person considers Jesus telling of His return, ( id say He Knows better than any other since He is the one returning and spoke Gods own Word. matthew chapter 25:31-46......i think the thing is to reconcile all the scriptures concerning a subject, and learn what is there, rather than omitting what doesnt agree to my own thinking or pre concieved doctrine.

My own belief though. Jesus teaches clearly concerning Gods Kingdom. if we first Believe His word, the rest is Gravy and all reconciles in Him. But ireally am not looking for arguments and am not condemning any of you folks. i figure its a bible discussion forum, im just not willng to ever omit JESUS and His word, because He says not to so many times, and also He suffered so much so that I can be called a child of God......because of this i will live with all i have to obey His word. and honestly it has changed so many things in my Life, im addicted now and cant ever go back to the bondage i used to know. I havesinned much in my past, and i am fully aware of the price paid for my forgiveness.

the "works on the cross" to me mean something different , His suffering is very real to me as if i witnessed His sacrifice firsthand, its as if i was standing at a distance Hearing His excruciating cries as He suffered in my place. because of the works of the cross, im commited to the one who willingly took my place even as far as believing His words and following after him in all ways i can muster. rather than freedom and rest, i find peace and joy in laying down the me that was lost and chasing afterthe image of JESUS. Ill never be finished, in my weary hour or in my waking moment i hear His words maybe im a nut lol idk but my mind is gone and the gospel is in its place.

I appreciate the convo, God bless. ( fyi my heart is always what people get so please dont consider this boasting or anything its just who i am now and makes me less than any other)

I understand your beliefs. The thing I think all of us as Christians can agree about is that Christ has done so much for us, and has loved us with this great love- that we should walk worthy of the Lord. I heard a wise man say that if we can fellowship around the person of Jesus, then we can have communion one with another. For the same Lord has saved us. I think the problem is we as OSAS believers think that people who believe you can lose your salvation are not resting in Christ, not really accessing His love. It is total and complete- 100% unconditional. We rely on Him to keep us saved because we know how weak we are. That isn't a license to sin, just the opposite. It makes it that much more terrible when we DO sin against such great love and forgiveness.

I think too, that people who believe you can lose your salvation believe those of us who are secure are misusing the Lord, not valuing His sacrifice adequately because it seems we are lax and lazy Christians. I can not completely deny this in my own life. I am not what I want to be. Hence the verse in my signature. I would leave the conversation with this verse:

I John 3:11 "For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another."

We can disagree about doctrine, but we are siblings in the Lord. God bless you. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.