Women Pastors? Help me.

[Spurgeoncy]

Acts 18:26
And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

 

[p_rehbein]

Too, too funny...........of course we SHOULD NOT show Scripture where God USED WOMEN to achieve His will........that would kinda take the air outta your arguments wouldn't it? Too, too funny

Your example of David is inane in this argument.........but, I suppose it serves to confuse the issue for some, and that serves your purpose does it not? To confuse and confound?

Two types of believers.........AS DEFINED by Paul himself...........the Carnal and the Spiritual...........and this argument is best defined in that way........those viewing it from the perspective of the Carnal believer are on your side of the argument, and those viewing it from the perspective of the Spiritual believer are on my side of the argument........but, sadly, those on your side are blind to this............sooooooooooo

Galatians 3:25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 .) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 .) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 .) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 .) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Deal with Deborah HAVING GOD GIVEN AUTHORITY, with Priscilla INSTRUCTING men, and the woman at the well TAKING the Gospel of Christ to an entire City........and then mayhaps you got an argument. Until then, you are simply viewing all of this through the eyes of a Carnal believer in my opinion.

David a man after God's own heart committed ADULTRY and MURDERED a man... do we use the fact that he was a man of of God to PROVE that it's perfectly fine with God for a Christian to fornicate and commit murder?

Don't drag Deborah into this, stick with the plain and simple verses that CLEARLY prohibit a woman from teaching and usurping authority over the man. Deborah being a judge does absolutely nothing to CONTRADICT Paul's teaching.

 

[Dino246]

I didn't even want to get involved in this thread because I care about people on the other side of this argument, but the blatant DISREGARD of scripture brought me in to it.

I understand your concern, but I must ask two things: did you read Angela's exegesis of this passage, and if you did, can you counter it? If not, why do you write this?

Someone wise once wrote, in regard to to biblical interpretation, "If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense" (or something very similar). Many people take these verses without question. Many don't, because to us, the plain sense doesn't make sense (in light of other passages... or the lack thereof). So we question the plain sense, and look further, finding that the plain sense is most likely incorrect, and that there is really no prohibition against women in ministry.

 

[p_rehbein]

Paul was addressing the Congregation at Corinth. Specifically in this Epistle. Try learning about the History of these folks, then apply Paul's teachings to them. Made perfect sense for him to say what he said/teach what he taught. It was not uncommon for the men of Corinth to have more than one wife..........that also is relevant to other teachings of his. They (the women) were not always educated, or may have never read the Scriptures............so, anything they might say was NOT edifying for the Congregation, or useful. It was usually a cause for confusion.

Learn the History of the people Paul was speaking to.........that really, really helps with Context........

Do the WOMEN in the Church YOU attend.........KEEP SILENCE? I bet they don't............

And, oh my goodness........is PAUL SAYING they should OBEY THE LAW? What happened to GRACE? uhoh........

Explain this one:

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 KJV
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. [34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

[KJV1611]

Too, too funny...........of course we SHOULD NOT show Scripture where God USED WOMEN to achieve His will........that would kinda take the air outta your arguments wouldn't it? Too, too funny

Your example of David is inane in this argument.........but, I suppose it serves to confuse the issue for some, and that serves your purpose does it not? To confuse and confound?

Two types of believers.........AS DEFINED by Paul himself...........the Carnal and the Spiritual...........and this argument is best defined in that way........those viewing it from the perspective of the Carnal believer are on your side of the argument, and those viewing it from the perspective of the Spiritual believer are on my side of the argument........but, sadly, those on your side are blind to this............sooooooooooo

Galatians 3:25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 .) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 .) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 .) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 .) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Deal with Deborah HAVING GOD GIVEN AUTHORITY, with Priscilla INSTRUCTING men, and the woman at the well TAKING the Gospel of Christ to an entire City........and then mayhaps you got an argument. Until then, you are simply viewing all of this through the eyes of a Carnal believer in my opinion.

Before you try understanding those MINUTE OBSCURE examples, deal with the IN YOUR FACE facts presented in easy to understand language. Refute those verses first, then move on to Deborah... they DON"T contradict.

 

[HisHolly]

I said long ago in another thread on this topic.. chapter 7 starts a Responsa... Folks would write to Rabbi for answers.. Angela almost got it in her last section... She was right that he was quoting someone... That's how a Responsa works..

 

[StanJ]

Explain this one:
1 Corinthians 14:33-35 KJV
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. [34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Already did, in post 455. Do you know what Biblical hermeneutics is?

 

[Magenta]

Too, too funny...........of course we SHOULD NOT show Scripture where God USED WOMEN to achieve His will........that would kinda take the air outta your arguments wouldn't it? Too, too funny

Your example of David is inane in this argument.........but, I suppose it serves to confuse the issue for some, and that serves your purpose does it not? To confuse and confound?

Two types of believers.........AS DEFINED by Paul himself...........the Carnal and the Spiritual...........and this argument is best defined in that way........those viewing it from the perspective of the Carnal believer are on your side of the argument, and those viewing it from the perspective of the Spiritual believer are on my side of the argument........but, sadly, those on your side are blind to this............sooooooooooo

Galatians 3:25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 .) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 .) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 .) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 .) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Deal with Deborah HAVING GOD GIVEN AUTHORITY, with Priscilla INSTRUCTING men, and the woman at the well TAKING the Gospel of Christ to an entire City........and then mayhaps you got an argument. Until then, you are simply viewing all of this through the eyes of a Carnal believer in my opinion.

Let us not forget Mary Magdalene, whom Jesus chose as the first witness to the gospel of the living risen Lord. He thought she was good enough to carry the message.

Early Christian writers also called Mary Magdalene an apostle to the apostles

 

[KJV1611]

I understand your concern, but I must ask two things: did you read Angela's exegesis of this passage, and if you did, can you counter it? If not, why do you write this?

Someone wise once wrote, in regard to to biblical interpretation, "If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense" (or something very similar). Many people take these verses without question. Many don't, because to us, the plain sense doesn't make sense (in light of other passages... or the lack thereof). So we question the plain sense, and look further, finding that the plain sense is most likely incorrect, and that there is really no prohibition against women in ministry.

Here is what I read:

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12

The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena in Greek. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia. (The word used in Matt 28:18)

Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.

The word is authentein, (αύθεμτείν) in Greek. According to every scholarly source I have read, authentein means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat." So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's anointing, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.

The best translation, which takes into account the infinitive status of authentein "to domineer' as opposed to turning into a noun, and having to add an extraneous verb like "exercise," for the verse to make sense. Authentein is not a substantive, and there is no justification for adding a verb that is not even in the verse.

"I do not allow a woman to teach, or to domineer over a man, rather, she is to remain silent." 1 Tim. 2:12 (my translation!)

Angela said "So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's anointing, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man. "

Angela makes this statement and then follows with this one.

"I do not allow a woman to teach, or to domineer over a man, rather, she is to remain silent." 1 Tim. 2:12 (my translation!)

Domineering over a man in no way shape or form means "to be without God's annointing" does it? Besides that, EVERY MAJOR TRANSLATION says exactly the same thing - a woman is not to have authority over the man. Let's be serious, did all the translating comittees of ALL the major translations GET IT WRONG?

 

[StanJ]

Before you try understanding those MINUTE OBSCURE examples, deal with the IN YOUR FACE facts presented in easy to understand language. Refute those verses first, then move on to Deborah... they DON"T contradict.

How exactly do you think that 400 year old Elizabethan English is easy to understand by people of today? Even you seem to have a problem understanding it?

 

[StanJ]

Let's be serious, did all the translating comittees of ALL the major translations GET IT WRONG?

No, but people such as yourself don't read it in its proper context and more Modern English translations will help those who don't, well at least some of those who don't. The context is not the corporate Church setting, the context is the family setting.

 

[KJV1611]

Already did, in post 455. Do you know what Biblical hermeneutics is?

IMHO, verses 34 - 35 is Paul quoting what had been submitted to him previously before writing this letter to the Corinthians and as such is why it is set apart by itself in most translations.
Verse 36 is Paul refuting this idea and going on to set the standard for corporate worship in the church.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 KJV
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
[34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
[35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
[36] What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

Where in the bible do you find that Paul is quoting ANYTHING previously submitted to him? Where is that in the bible?

 

[KJV1611]

How exactly do you think that 400 year old Elizabethan English is easy to understand by people of today? Even you seem to have a problem understanding it?

Read the verses in any translation, they all say the same thing.

 

[HisHolly]

#506.. he says now in regards to what you wrote.. Jews have for thousands of years done Responsa... Look it up

Where in the bible do you find that Paul is quoting ANYTHING previously submitted to him? Where is that in the bible?

 

[KJV1611]

No, but people such as yourself don't read it in its proper context and more Modern English translations will help those who don't, well at least some of those who don't. The context is not the corporate Church setting, the context is the family setting.

Why don't you give a verse rebuttal AGAINST what Paul said, explain verse by verse how Paul is WRONG.

 

[KJV1611]

Do you guys not realize that the WOMAN is the church and the man is CHRIST? Should any of us usurp the power of Christ? God asks us to do ONE THING - believe GOD... that's it! If you're trying to change the BIBLE because you don't like what it says, you are not doing the one thing he asks us to do.

 

[Angela53510]

Those verses are PLAIN and SIMPLE, why are you arguing AGAINST the word of God?

Did you read nothing I wrote about the exegetics of the Greek?

Oh right, I forgot, only the KJV is inspired, not the original autographs!

(Just joking, I know those have not yet been found! Let us say, then, the earliest extant manuscripts in the original languages!)

 

[KJV1611]

Did you read nothing I wrote about the exegetics of the Greek?

Oh right, I forgot, only the KJV is inspired, not the original autographs!

(Just joking, I know those have not yet been found! Let us say, then, the earliest extant manuscripts in the original languages!)

I read your exegeitcs of the Greek and I made comments on it in post 509.

 

[proverbs35]

This Holy Word of God revealed that both Deborah and Priscilla had authority over man/men......so, not sure your argument holds water..........but, then........ Should I believe the Holy Word of God or some Denominations interpretation?

This very often gets overlooked, dismissed, discounted and swept under the rug. Queen Esther had some authority over men:

• Then Esther sent this reply to Mordecai: 16“Go, gather together ALL THE JEWS who are in Susa, and fast for me. Do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. Es 4:15-16

Queen Esther ordered (some translations say commanded) ALL the Jews in Susa to fast. ALL the Jews included the men - not just women.

• Mordecai then went away and did everything as Esther had ordered him. Es 4:17

Queen Esther (a woman) gave Mordecai (a man) an order.

• Esther appointed Mordecai over Haman’s estate. Es 8:2

• So Queen Esther, daughter of Abihail, along with Mordecai the Jew, wrote with full authority to confirm this second letter concerning Purim. 30And Mordecai sent letters to all the Jews in the 127 provinces of Xerxes’ kingdom—words of goodwill and assurance— 31to establish these days of Purim at their designated times, as Mordecai the Jew and Queen Esther had decreed for them, and as they had established for themselves and their descendants in regard to their times of fasting and lamentation Es 9:29-31

Although she didn't do it by herself, Queen Esther wrote with FULL AUTHORITY a second letter for the Jewish men and women concerning Purim in 127 provinces of Xerxes’ kingdom.

• 32 ESTHER’S DECREE confirmed these regulations about Purim, and it was written down in the records. Es 9:32.

Queen Esther (a woman) wrote law for the Jews about Purim. Queen Esther was a lawmaker. Modern Jews still celebrate Purim.

 

[samuel23]

1Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak, but to be under obedience, for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1Tim 2:11 let the woman learn in silence with all subjection, but I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority over the man but to be in subjection. John 8:47 he that is of God hears God's words, you therefore hear not, because you are not of God.