Don't choke the BABY! Let new Christians drink their milk before you force feed them

[royalscot]

Stephen, Gb, and royalscot y'all are being disrespectful.

If you don't get a response from me on this thread, it's because i have temporary put u 3 on ignore.

Only have limited time to read and respond and I don't feel like watching a fight.

Can't really stop you from reengaging in your favorite bashing of your made up strawmen, but serious I was hoping to talk to some mature folks.

that was not my intention , for you to feel disrespected.

my intention was to let you know under the yolk of the jewish law. you need to be jewish.
by bring this law in to christian teaching, you disrespect what jesus christ has already done for a believer.

the history of jewish people, breaks forward into christian teaching.
because they rejected a saviour, the law has no value in grace a gift. (to keep it short)

if people are not clear in that point, then condemnation. is all they will find. being cut of from wrong or misunderstanding to scripture.
if a christian falls back like the jewish in gal 5 v1-5.

Galatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

so the milk drinkers need this in there understanding, to maintain a christian belief, ie what jesus has already done for you. and how he saved you.

if the fall into condemnation again.

they can boot it in to obliviate.

with romans 5 and romans 8 v1.

 

[PeterJens]

Pauls writings. Paul has a way of writing that is contextual, based on an assumption
of the area he is addressing so it should not be taken too far.

So Paul will say, a man living with his fathers wife is blatant sin, and should be repented
of.

He then says everything is lawful, but not everything is helpful. He is addressing the
ceremonial law, and how we integrate with the world.
He is also addressing the moral law, which dictates that which causes harm and is banned or
excluded from behaviour between people, and God.

But as far as cermonial law, law of symbols and celebrations, law of sabbaths and seasons
we can choose how and when we celebrate, for these were all symbols and celebrations of
Christ who has now come.

Judging. Paul calls Corinth to judge disputes between members, to resolve differences, to
not go to court, because Christ expects the church to be able to judge angels.
He calls them to judge people who claim to be believers yet live sinfully and like the world.
That they should be excluded and treated as unbelievers.

Now Paul also says he cannot be judged, and he does not judge himself. Now he is talking
about motivations for doing things, why he preaches or seeks God, or encourages his brothers
and sisters. These are things of personality, and style, of force and humblness etc.

Now it is possible to tie oneself in knots and say Paul is saying everything is ok, or Paul believes
in the moral law, and the letter, and conforming to a style or way of living. Now in part they
would all be true, but you would miss the nuance if you do not delve deeper and walk with
Jesus.

So for me is the measure of spirituality you have is to hold both of these balances together
in your mind and heart.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Haha peter!
We were talking about the Holy Spirit.
Good post though...

 

[Ariel82]

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

1 Peter 3:21
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Acts 10:48
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Acts 22:16
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

Colossians 2:12
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Galatians 3:27
27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Luke 3:16
16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 16:16
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Luke 3:21-22
21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

Mark 1:4-5
4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Acts 8:36-38
36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized? ” 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Acts 16:31-33
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized.

Acts 2:38-41
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

John 1:29-33
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

Matthew 3:11-17
11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” 13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented. 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Romans 6:1-18
1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness

Reading these scriptures, baptism indicates the point in a believers life when we die to the flesh and are buried with Christ, washed clean through His blood shed for the remission of sins. It is when the Holy Spirit descends upon us like a fire to burn up the hay and stubble of our lives.

Like stunned said, it can happen differently for each believer. For John Wesley it happened at aldergate when he felt a warmth in his heart. It is interesting to see the difference between his sermons before and after. Before he taught a more legalistic gospel and after he spoke more of grace and mercy.

Grace, you made some excellent points about how it might be referring to the Jewish cleansing rituals. I agree that the water baptisms might refer to those ceremonies.

I agree there is only one baptism that truly matter. Only one baptism is able to save people and make them children of God, the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

However why are people in Acts baptised by water?

Why was Jesus baptized by water?

Why did Jesus wait until he was thirty to be baptized by his cousin John? Why did unborn John recognize Jesus as Messiah, but full grown need the sign of a dove a lighting upon Jesus and a voice from heaven saying "This is my beloved son"?

Trying to fix a bottle but still wondering about those things.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes but some might think to be saved despite of them in that they don't really need to repent or strive to avoid them.

They would be foolish works then not dead works, And if people who are Gods children think it is ok to sin, I would question if they were gods children.

They are dead works....bible doesn't say folks do them to be saved but that folks need to repent of dead works.

A "dead" work by definition means a work that has no power. Power to do what?

We repent of sin, because sin is evil and separated us from God.

We repent of dead works (especially the jews had to do this) because works can not save, even thought we (or they) thought they could.

if you do not repent of them, how cna you come to grace?

 

[Ariel82]

I see there is a fear from both Willie-T and Royalscot that we would try and force fed the law to new baby Christians, instead of the pure milk of the gospel.

You misunderstand our intent for studying Jewish beliefs.

In Romans 3, Paul writes "What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God."

It's says the Jewish people were entrusted with God's prophecies. We can examine the rituals and practices as a shadow of what God has created in is through the new covenant.

I ask: if someone denies they are a sinner, what need do they have for a savior?

Therefore the word REPENT must include admitting that they are sinners, that they can not save themselves through their own effort. Therefore they must have faith towards God that He sent Jesus Christ to die upon the cross for the remission of their sins.

We have now moved on to the subject of baptisms.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We have to have humble and contrite hearts to repent of anything God tells us are sins.

I Agree, And I think we learn all the time new sins we did not know were sin.

 

[PeterJens]

The danger to new believers is the difference between temptation, and desire and sin itself.
It takes time to work through temptation and desire, but not sin itself.

If you do not start talking about emotions and the heart, forgiveness and honesty, this is where
legalism comes in. The appearance matters more than learning who we are, and facing hard out of
control reactions.

Yesterday I learnt something, I had not thought of before. When you hurt you foot, the pain
makes you change the way you walk, so you start walking oddly. This causes other problems
that compound. But when the pain goes away, you have to actively learn how to walk properly.
It takes concentration and effort, to reprogram you muscle memory.

Spiritually we are the same. We come to Christ and the pain is washed away, the guilt and trouble,
the need to hide and deny, to appear one thing, while inside being another. But our spiritual
muscle memory is still in knots, avoiding stuff because of pain and trouble, which now can be straightened
out and taught appropriate responses.

So young christians often fail, and think it is because of who they are, rather than how they have
learnt to react from the past. This discourages many, and makes them give up hope.

We need training in righteousness, to listen to our next step, to know how to be and reach out,
to be Gods light in the dark world, to be overcomers and not victims, to show the cross and its
healing and not behave as if death has become the victor and all is just make believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Discerning good and evil is classified as meat....not milk.

Your water is salty.

I think that would be milk. If someone can not determine right from wrong, How could they repent?

 

[Ariel82]

I think that would be milk. If someone can not determine right from wrong, How could they repent?

The Holy Spirit teaches them discernment.

For repentance they need only know of one sin they are unable to wash clean without God and have faith towards God that He will cleanse them.

 

[Demi777]

I think that the milk are the basics of the gospel..my explaination for that is that milk has the main ingredients that allow the babe to grow and be strong and mature into being able to eat solid food. In the time of milk thr body starts growing etc.
Then onto the basics of the milk you start building up ( physically muscles and stuff) that werent there before. Which is where specific studies start building up that and u start to be able to understand more and "eat" more difficult and hard food with time...thats how I find it

 

[royalscot]

They would be foolish works then not dead works, And if people who are Gods children think it is ok to sin, I would question if they were gods children.



A "dead" work by definition means a work that has no power. Power to do what?

We repent of sin, because sin is evil and separated us from God.

We repent of dead works (especially the jews had to do this) because works can not save, even thought we (or they) thought they could.

if you do not repent of them, how cna you come to grace?

who appointed you judge and ware did you get your law from. have already been posted , authenticate or debunk these posts.

take that up with act 10, and acts 15. can you underline in your next quote the part Cornelius repented before getting the holy spirit.

did he get the same guarantee , that the jewish converts got.
Romans 4
16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring---not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,Romans 4

,22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.2 Corinthians 5




14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

tell me what law saved you.
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."Acts 15

the apostle are christian apostle not jewish rabbis.

 

[royalscot]

I see there is a fear from both Willie-T and Royalscot that we would try and force fed the law to new baby Christians, instead of the pure milk of the gospel.

You misunderstand our intent for studying Jewish beliefs.

In Romans 3, Paul writes "What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God."

It's says the Jewish people were entrusted with God's prophecies. We can examine the rituals and practices as a shadow of what God has created in is through the new covenant.

I ask: if someone denies they are a sinner, what need do they have for a savior?

Therefore the word REPENT must include admitting that they are sinners, that they can not save themselves through their own effort. Therefore they must have faith towards God that He sent Jesus Christ to die upon the cross for the remission of their sins.

We have now moved on to the subject of baptisms.

acts 2 was for jewish converts . etc
have fun with condemnation. we are gentile believers, and now the jews and gentile converts believers are call christian believer.
so your outside of the meaning of scripture, and that would me you a false teacher. or a liar .

when did i ask your opinion, debunk or authenticate (have fun with the debunk part.)

what been said to you.

when did cornelious repent.

 

[PeterJens]

milk of the gospel -

Paul rebukes corinth for loyalties to individuals rather than the truth itself.
He equate loyalty to a person as something from this world, rather than loyalty
to Christ is what matters.

If one is putting Christ first, the preacher matters less than the aspect of walking
with Jesus they are highlighting.

 

[royalscot]

The Holy Spirit teaches them discernment.

For repentance they need only know of one sin they are unable to wash clean without God and have faith towards God that He will cleanse them.

yes he dose, you have to know what to decern.
thats why he asking you, when did he give gentile or jews converts a jewish law, if you stay in an western world or nation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see there is a fear from both Willie-T and Royalscot that we would try and force fed the law to new baby Christians, instead of the pure milk of the gospel.

You misunderstand our intent for studying Jewish beliefs.

In Romans 3, Paul writes "What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God."

It's says the Jewish people were entrusted with God's prophecies. We can examine the rituals and practices as a shadow of what God has created in is through the new covenant.

I ask: if someone denies they are a sinner, what need do they have for a savior?

Therefore the word REPENT must include admitting that they are sinners, that they can not save themselves through their own effort. Therefore they must have faith towards God that He sent Jesus Christ to die upon the cross for the remission of their sins.

We have now moved on to the subject of baptisms.

sorry I am a late comer since i left Friday.

The law is something God wrote on our hearts. As paul said, A gentile who was not given the law by NATURE do those things contained in the law. WHile those given the law were not doing the things in the law.

And as romans 1 says, Even the non believer of the word knows what he is doing is sin, and worthy of judgment, Yet he does them anyway, and brings other people along with him to sin.

I believe a babe needs to learn what Jesus did for them, and be assured of what happened (like say eph 1 - 3) or thhe gospels. before you take them to the law. Which no one but Christ has been able to fulfill.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

when you want to read what I said again, and try to understand, then come back with maybe a question, or anything other than a slam. I will be happy to listen to your question and respond.

Nothing I see in this post directly relates to anything I said.

who appointed you judge and ware did you get your law from. have already been posted , authenticate or debunk these posts.

take that up with act 10, and acts 15. can you underline in your next quote the part Cornelius repented before getting the holy spirit.

did he get the same guarantee , that the jewish converts got.
Romans 4
16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring---not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,Romans 4

,22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.2 Corinthians 5




14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

tell me what law saved you.
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."Acts 15

the apostle are christian apostle not jewish rabbis.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Holy Spirit teaches them discernment.

For repentance they need only know of one sin they are unable to wash clean without God and have faith towards God that He will cleanse them.

Only one?

I think they have to admit and acknowledge that ALL sin is unable to be washed by man, or cleaned, and they need God to save them, because they can not save themselves..

when we repent, we repent of known and unknown sins, and admit to God, there is alot I need to learn. I acknowledge I have sinned, I am sinning, and I will sin against you. For this reason, I can't save myself. I NEED YOU TO SAVE ME..

For all have sinned and fall short

 

[Ariel82]

sorry I am a late comer since i left Friday.

The law is something God wrote on our hearts. As paul said, A gentile who was not given the law by NATURE do those things contained in the law. WHile those given the law were not doing the things in the law.

And as romans 1 says, Even the non believer of the word knows what he is doing is sin, and worthy of judgment, Yet he does them anyway, and brings other people along with him to sin.

I believe a babe needs to learn what Jesus did for them, and be assured of what happened (like say eph 1 - 3) or thhe gospels. before you take them to the law. Which no one but Christ has been able to fulfill.

It's alright. I will wait for you to catch up in your reading.

True babes in Christ need to have faith towards God.

My previous comments mainly concern the fact that many deny that the law was placed in their heart and thus convicts them as sinners in need of a savior.

Do they need the full law explained? No God has placed in their hearts what is right and wrong if they are honest with themselves. However the lack of common sense shows the lack of honesty of many people.

Proverbs 2:7-9New Living Translation (NLT)

7 He grants a treasure of common sense to the honest.
He is a shield to those who walk with integrity.
8 He guards the paths of the just
and protects those who are faithful to him.
9 Then you will understand what is right, just, and fair,
and you will find the right way to go.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Baptisms.

We need to go back to their time period. Letter written to the jews. The jews had all kinds of ceremonial washing translated baptisms.

The doctrines of baptisms or washings, would be the teaching of what each one meants, From the ceremonial washings of the temple. and priests, to the baptisms of john, and Jesus, to Christan baptism, to baptism of God.

Since today we mostly think of just 2 baptisms. It is easier, all we have to do is differentiate between the 2 nd what they mean. and the purpose.