ONE BAPTISM - Ephesians 4:5

mailmandan · Jan 25, 2017

We are not drinking your Campbellite kool aid.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 19:2 - Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

*In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - this is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

So once again *and please pay close attention* - In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

mailmandan · Jan 26, 2017

plaintalk said:

As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - Through the washing of regeneration (dia loutrou palingenesia). Late and common word with the Stoics (Dibelius) and in the Mystery-religions (Angus), also in the papyri and Philo. Only twice in the N.T. (Matthew 19:28 with which compare apokatastasia in Acts 3:21, and here in personal sense of new birth). For loutron, see Ephesians 5:26, here as there the laver or the bath. Probably in both cases there is a reference to baptism, but, as in Romans 6:3-6 , the immersion is the picture or the symbol of the new birth, not the means of securing it. Paul has put the objective symbol before the reality. The Holy Spirit does the renewing, man submits to the baptism after the new birth to picture it forth to men. A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

*The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used is used metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing, Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration."

Titus 3:5 does not refer to baptismal regeneration but to "spiritual cleansing." This is a reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; John 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). The natural man cannot understand because he is spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).

plaintalk · Jan 26, 2017

Mailmandan writes: Thread- one baptism, post # 361
“We are not drinking your Campbellite kool aid.”

“John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.” mailmandan

Response:
Yes, we receive the Holy Spirit when we believe. The question is, “when do we receive the Holy Spirit when we believe? Is He received in that first moment of faith or is He received when our faith is perfected or completed by the obedience of faith (faith working with works of faith so as to complete faith)? (James 2: 20-24)

Acts 2: 38, 39- Everyone who believes is promised the gift of the Holy Spirit, to receive the Holy Spirit as a gift (Acts 10: 44- 47), when they repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin.

Acts 5: 32- we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit when by faith we obey.

Galatians 4: 6- because we are sons, God pours forth the Holy Spirit in our heart. God gives the Spirit to His children. This prompts us to ask, “when and how do we become children of God?” For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27)

Well how about that first moment of meaningful faith? What actually happens? But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1: 12, 13) They are given the right to become children of God and they are begotten by God. We receive faith not by the exercise of our will, not by choosing to believe, but as a gift from God, by the grace of God. He opens the heart to respond in faith, hope and love. Faith is a work of God. We are saved by faith, given the right to become children of God by faith and given the Spirit by faith, just not at the first moment of faith. We are saved when faith is completed by obedience.

If this is your first drink of biblical kool aid, please drink deeply.
God bless.

mailmandan · Jan 26, 2017

plaintalk said:

That first moment when we believe.

In that first moment of faith. Faith made perfect by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that we finally receive the Holy Spirit after we accomplish a check list of works or that we are saved by works.

We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit when we believes in Him/believe in the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18). In regards to Acts 2:38 (your pet verse) go back and read post #361.

We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit when we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16). Choosing to believe the gospel by placing our faith (belief, trust, reliance) exclusively in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is the acts of obedience that saves and causes us to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Are you ready to believe the gospel?

Stop right there and you have it right. For you are all sons of God THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS. Period. Also, in John 1:12, we read - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.

Notice in Galatians 3:27, that those who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Now for the word "enduo" (put on). This word also appears in Romans 13:14 where we read, "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill it’s lusts." This exhortation is not to a sinner, telling him to be baptized to "put on" Christ, but it is written to Christians. Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if we must "put on" Christ to be saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also “put on” Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Romans 13:14). Right? Let’s be consistent. *Now go back and read post #161 where I previously explained this to you in more depth.

Faith is only as good or meaningful as the OBJECT that we place it in. Faith in Christ saves from the very first moment. Faith in "water and works" cannot save.

False. That is salvation by works. Given the "right to become children of God" means that we "actually do become children of God" at the very moment that we believe in His name. Are you ready to BELIEVE?

I was not born again yesterday. I am well aware of the false teachings of Campbellism. I want no part of your unbiblical Campbellite kool aid that is laced with spiritual cianide/salvation by works. I traded in the poison kool aid of Catholicism and Campbellism for living water many years ago. Praise God!

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."

John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."

Revelation 22:17 - And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Are you thirsty and ready to drink? Please drink deeply.

plaintalk · Jan 27, 2017

mailmandan writes: Thread- one baptism, post # 361

Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Response:
All mankind, who believe and obey the gospel, receive the Spirit of God (Acts 2: 17) and we are all without distinction purified by faith. Cornelius and his household were purified by faith as we all are, only the order of events were changed.
Acts 2: 38, 39- we all receive forgiveness of sins by faith through repentance and baptism in the name of Christ.
Acts 10: 43- those that believe receive forgiveness of sins
Acts 3: 19- our sins are blotted out through repentance.
Acts 22: 16- Paul’s sins were washed away at his baptism.
Romans 6: 7- we are freed from sin when we die to the old self when baptized into Christ and His death.
Romans 6: 17, 18- we are freed from sin when we obey that form of teaching.
Ephesians 1: 3- all spiritual blessings, including redemption, are in Christ and we are baptized into Christ.
Ephesians 1: 7- redemption, the forgiveness if sin is in Christ and we are baptized into Christ.
Ephesians 5: 26- we are cleansed by the washing of water by the word.
Colossians 1: 14- redemption, the forgiveness of sin, is in Christ and we are baptized into Christ.
Hebrews 9: 14- the blood of Christ cleanses our conscience.
Hebrews 10: 22- as our hearts are sprinkled clean, our bodies are washed with pure water.
1 Peter 1: 2- we are sprinkled with the blood of Christ when we obey.
1 Peter 1: 22- we are purified by obedience.
1 John 3: 3- we are purified by hope.

Faith is our introduction into the grace of God (Rom. 5: 2) and it is impossible to be pleasing to God without it (Heb. 11: 6),therefore the Scriptures affirm that we are forgiven and purified by faith, however there is more to purification than faith. Abraham’s faith was authenticated before God when he obeyed (Gen. 22: 12, 18; Heb. 11: 8) When we obey our Lord we are sprinkled with the blood of Christ (1Peter 1: 2) The ultimate reality is the washing by the blood of Christ.

Faith, hope and love now abide (1 Cor. 13: 13), that is they co-exist; faith is our introduction to the grace of God, but it is not the end-all, both hope and love also provide access to grace, faith is not alone, in fact it is not the greatest virtue, that distinction belongs to love (1 Cor. 13: 13) Faith without love is meaningless (1 Cor. 13: 2); faith is perfected or completed by the obedience of faith (faith working with works of faith which God has given) (James 2: 20- 24) Faith alone, without works of faith is dead and useless. (James 2: 17, 20) but this is precisely the type of faith that is advocated by so many.
God bless.

plaintalk · Jan 27, 2017

Mailmandan writes: Thread- one baptism, post # 361
“Acts 19:2 - Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
Response:
You keep making the same assumption, that the Holy Spirit is received at the moment of faith. The Lord, has told us once, that should be enough, that we all receive the Holy Spirit when we repent and are baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of our sins. That promise is for everyone. (Acts 2: 38, 39)

The Lord has also told us what happens at the moment of faith. But as many as received Him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born (begotten) not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1: 12, 13) But you seem disinclined to hear also.

The Lord has also told us how we come to faith and it is not as you write, obeying the gospel by choosing to believe. The first requirement in coming after Jesus is to deny ourselves. (Matt. 16: 24) God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. (James 4: 6) He opens the heart of the humble to respond to the message in faith, hope and love. (Acts 16: 14; 1 Cor. 13; 13) Faith is a work of God. (John 6: 29) We receive faith as a gift (Rom. 12: 3), by the grace of God (Acts 18: 27) But here again, you seem disinclined to hear.

But getting back to Acts 19: 2. Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They responded that they did not know if He even existed. They were asked, “Into what were you baptized?” They replied into John’s baptism. They were told that John baptized with a baptism of repentance and that he told them to believe in Jesus who was coming after him. Upon hearing that, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and after that they received the Spirit when hands were laid on them. You might want to take this one off your proof list as it conforms to Acts 2: 38, 39.
God bless.

mailmandan · Jan 27, 2017

plaintalk said:

All mankind, who obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel, receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:8,9; Ephesians 1:13). Not to be confused with Acts 2:17. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We "obey the gospel" by "choosing to believe the gospel." Paul did not say believe and obey the gospel as if they are two separate acts of obedience (Romans 1:16; 10:16).

The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) as the Savior of all who BELIEVE/trust in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Are you ready to repent and BELIEVE the gospel?

Nothing was changed. You are simply trying to force Acts 10:43-47; 11:17 to "conform" to your biased church doctrine.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

Those that believe BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47).

Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ, but it does not literally wash away our sins, contrary to your conclusion. In Acts 10:43, receiving remission of sins is connected with "believes in Him" and not with baptism (Acts 10:43-47). *Hermeneutics. Go back and read post #315.

Sorry, water baptism is the PICTURE, but not the reality of dying to the old self and rising with Him in newness of life. We obey the gospel/obey that form of teaching from the heart when we choose to believe the gospel:

*Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

*Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness.. *Unto righteousness = saved.

*Compare 1 Peter 1:22 - "purified your souls in obeying the truth" with Acts 15:9 - "purified their hearts by faith."

Go back and read post #325 in regards to Hebrews 10:22 and 1 Peter 1:2.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1). Go back and read post #268.

Amen! But then you pervert the gospel by "adding" works to salvation through faith in Christ. Jesus is not enough for you so you turn to supplements.

Hearts are purified by faith. Not by works. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith when he BELIEVED God in Genesis 15:6 (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before Genesis 22.

Paul uses hyperbole (obvious and intentional exaggeration) about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love. Paul is not exaggerating about the importance of love though. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith plus love. Love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do. We won't need faith and hope in heaven. In 1 Corinthians 13:13, Paul is not teaching that even if our faith is genuine that our faith cannot save us without producing "enough" love. Paul is stressing the importance of love, not teaching that faith is insufficient to save us without our best efforts to love. All genuine BELIEVERS love Christ. Why? Because we have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

As I already explained, but the truth continues to go right over your head:

Faith perfected or completed by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works many years later. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

Faith that TRUSTS IN CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION saves (Ephesians 2:8,9) and not an empty profession of faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14). That type of faith does not save because it's a dead faith and not genuine living faith in Christ. Empty profession of faith/dead faith is NOT precisely the type of faith that is advocated by genuine believers. LEARN THE DIFFERENCE.

mailmandan · Jan 27, 2017

plaintalk said:

You keep making the assumption, that the Holy Spirit is received at baptism. Your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 does not trump (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). The Holy Spirit is received at the moment of faith and those who have genuinely exercised faith in Christ understand this.

What other requirements do you see attached to BELIEVE IN HIS NAME? We become children of God the moment that we BELIEVE IN HIS NAME. Believing in "water and works" is not believing in His name.

Yes He did and yes it is "obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel" (Romans 1:16; 10:16). When will you BELIEVE?

It's you who twists the Scriptures and is disinclined to hear. Rejecting Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation is neither denying yourself or being humble. It's tragic that human PRIDE will not allow you to come to Christ. Your hands are full of your works and you will not let go in order to take hold of Christ thorough FAITH.

Paul asked them in verse 2 if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet believers. They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (which was not the case in Acts 2 and Acts 10, so this does not conform to your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38, 39). It did signify their inclusion into the church. Apostles were also present when the Samaritans (chapter 8) were included. God's purpose was to emphasize unity in the church.

stonesoffire · Jan 27, 2017

Ive only read the OP, just skimmed over some other posts. Later, hopefully can read the whole..

But, I did look at the scripture..

~Eph 4:5　 OneG1520 Lord,G2962 oneG3391 faith,G4102 oneG1520 baptism,G908　

Notice there are two greek words for one? One Lord...we know He is triune. So from that I would say there are more than one baptisms. Plus there is a Hebrew word for one which is echad. It means one that is unified...El Eloah Elohim. Could the greek then be comparable to echad?

john832 · Jan 27, 2017

mailmandan said:

A line from Amazing Grace but unfortunately, unscriptural...

Repentance and baptism are required...

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

mailmandan · Jan 28, 2017

john832 said:

Not unscriptural at all. (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; etc..).

Repentance is required, YET repentance "precedes" saving belief in Christ. Repent "change your mind" (new direction of this change of mind) saving belief/faith in Christ. Campbellites reverse the order of repentance/belief/faith. To the contrary we find:

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

In regards to belief/faith, Campbellites often fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing on Jesus Christ for eternal life, and most cannot distinguish between mere intellectual belief or assent from a personal faith that is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Repentance on the other hand is understood as moral "self-reformation." They will cite that "even the devils believe" (from James 2:19) in their sermons and will contend that even the "faith of devils" is the same as any other faith except that the faith of devils lacks any moral or religious good works. This also explains why Campbellites have so much faith in "water and works."

Water baptism is not absolutely required for salvation and FOLLOWS repentance/belief/salvation (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18). The Bible NOWHERE says water baptized or condemned, but it says believe or condemned (John 3:18).

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - this is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

FranC · Jan 28, 2017

mailmandan said:

Not unscriptural at all. (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; etc..).

Repentance is required, YET repentance "precedes" saving belief in Christ. Repent "change your mind" (new direction of this change of mind) saving belief/faith in Christ. Campbellites reverse the order of repentance/belief/faith. To the contrary we find:

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

In regards to belief/faith, Campbellites often fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing on Jesus Christ for eternal life, and most cannot distinguish between mere intellectual belief or assent from a personal faith that is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Repentance on the other hand is understood as moral "self-reformation." They will cite that "even the devils believe" (from James 2:19) in their sermons and will contend that even the "faith of devils" is the same as any other faith except that the faith of devils lacks any moral or religious good works. This also explains why Campbellites have so much faith in "water and works."

Water baptism is not absolutely required for salvation and FOLLOWS repentance/belief/salvation (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18). The Bible NOWHERE says water baptized or condemned, but it says believe or condemned (John 3:18).

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - this is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Hi Mailmandan,
I'm only here to encourage you.
You're doing really well with Plaintalk and John832.

I find it interesting that one picks out the verses that agree with HIM, and they do not bother to read the New Testament as a whole book.

Fran

FranC · Jan 28, 2017

john832 said:

Hi John832
I arrive here late and maybe this has been asked already...
A simple question:

I am a sinner and repent and accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, let's say from an altar call at a church.
On my way home I get hit by a car and die.

What happens to me? Where do I go?

Fran

FranC · Jan 28, 2017

plaintalk said:

Mailmandan writes: Thread- one baptism, post # 361
“Acts 19:2 - Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
Response:
You keep making the same assumption, that the Holy Spirit is received at the moment of faith. The Lord, has told us once, that should be enough, that we all receive the Holy Spirit when we repent and are baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of our sins. That promise is for everyone. (Acts 2: 38, 39)

The Lord has also told us what happens at the moment of faith. But as many as received Him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born (begotten) not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1: 12, 13) But you seem disinclined to hear also.

The Lord has also told us how we come to faith and it is not as you write, obeying the gospel by choosing to believe. The first requirement in coming after Jesus is to deny ourselves. (Matt. 16: 24) God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. (James 4: 6) He opens the heart of the humble to respond to the message in faith, hope and love. (Acts 16: 14; 1 Cor. 13; 13) Faith is a work of God. (John 6: 29) We receive faith as a gift (Rom. 12: 3), by the grace of God (Acts 18: 27) But here again, you seem disinclined to hear.

But getting back to Acts 19: 2. Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They responded that they did not know if He even existed. They were asked, “Into what were you baptized?” They replied into John’s baptism. They were told that John baptized with a baptism of repentance and that he told them to believe in Jesus who was coming after him. Upon hearing that, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and after that they received the Spirit when hands were laid on them. You might want to take this one off your proof list as it conforms to Acts 2: 38, 39.
God bless.

Hi Plaintalk,
Please answer the same question I asked John832:

A simple question:

I am a sinner and repent and accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, let's say from an altar call at a church.
On my way home I get hit by a car and die.

What happens to me? Where do I go?

Fran

mailmandan · Jan 28, 2017

FranC said:

Amen! Thank you for your encouraging words!

plaintalk · Jan 28, 2017

Fran C Thread –one baptism, post# 373
Hi John832
I arrive here late and maybe this has been asked already...
A simple question:

I am a sinner and repent and accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, let's say from an altar call at a church.
On my way home I get hit by a car and die.

What happens to me? Where do I go?

Fran
Response:
Fran- As far as I know, no one has made me Judge over anyone. I suppose you will go to a mortuary or a funeral home. If you are asking about your eternal destiny, I suggest you talk to the Judge. While He was here on earth He said. “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.” (Mark 16: 16) There are many who say that this doesn’t mean that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation because He didn’t condemn those who are not baptized like he did condemn those who don’t believe. I have always considered that argument to lack substance for several reasons. First, it seems superfluous, if you don’t believe, you will not be baptized and if you are baptized, it would have no value as it would not be of faith. Second, if Jesus was saying “He that has believed and has obeyed by being baptized shall be saved,” there is ample reason to be concerned because the scriptures say – but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. (Rom. 2: 8) Another verse you might want to consider- dealing out retribution to those that do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,- (2 Thess. 1: 8, 9)

On Pentecost, when the 3,000 asked “Brethren, what shall we do,” Peter didn’t say “Well, there is nothing you can do to contribute to your salvation”; he said, “Repent and let each of you be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2: 38) Now a lot of folks have problems with this verse because they point out that in the Greek “Repent” is in the second person pleural and “let each of you be baptized” is in the third person singular. I hope on judgment day that they don’t forget their Greek grammars. However don’t bring Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics by Daniel B. Wallace, who is sympathetic to that view, but doesn’t think much of that argument, pgs. 370.

Sorry, I could not give a more definitive answer but judging is well beyond my pay level.
God bless.

FranC · Jan 28, 2017

plaintalk said:

Wow Plaintalk,

I think your pay level has just been increased!!

For someone who cannot judge anyone, you've done a really good job of judging me.
Here are a couple of things you just said to ME.

but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. (Rom. 2: 8) Another verse you might want to consider- dealing out retribution to those that do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,- (2 Thess. 1: 8,

Sounds like serious stuff. Selfish, ambitious, do not obey the truth, unrighteous, don't know God, etc. etc. Uffa. Sounds like I'm headed straight for hell.Lucky for me, YOU are not my judge.

I don't know Mr. Wallace. I do know someone who teaches koine Greek, but let's leave everyone out of this since Greek interests me even less than it interests you.

Seems like you feel that if one is not baptized he is not going to heaven. I'll also leave aside the thief who was crucified with Christ, I'll bet this thread has gone through that.

Let me ask you this since you like Acts:

What's the difference between Mathew 28:19 when Jesus instructs the Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and Acts 2:38, which you even brought up, when Peter said to be baptized in the name of Jesus?

BTW, I talk to the Judge a lot, and He doesn't tell me the same things you do. So who do you suppose I should listen to??

Fran

plaintalk · Jan 28, 2017

mailmandan writes: Thread- one baptism, post #362
The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used is used metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing, Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration."

Titus 3:5 does not refer to baptismal regeneration but to "spiritual cleansing." This is a reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; John 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). The natural man cannot understand because he is spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).
Response:
the Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich Greek-English lexicon has "the washing in water" Eph. 5: 26, "the bath that brings about regeneration" Titus 3: 5, there is no 'spiritual cleansing' other than the washing in the blood of Christ. We are released from our sins by the blood of Christ. (Rev. 1: 5) The "spiritual washing" is in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7: 14) God bless.

mailmandan · Jan 28, 2017

plaintalk said:

Amen! I agree with the Strong's Greek Concordance!

Amen!

Plain ordinary H20 has no power to bring about regeneration. Period.

As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - Through the washing of regeneration (dia loutrou palingenesia). Late and common word with the Stoics (Dibelius) and in the Mystery-religions (Angus), also in the papyri and Philo. Only twice in the N.T. ( Matthew 19:28 with which compare apokatastasia in Acts 3:2 , and here in personal sense of new birth). For loutron, see Ephesians 5:26, here as there the laver or the bath. Probably in both cases there is a reference to baptism, but, as in Romans 6:3-6 , the immersion is the picture or the symbol of the new birth, not the means of securing it. And renewing of the Holy Spirit (kai anakainwsew pneumato agiou). "And renewal by the Holy Spirit" (subjective genitive). For the late word anakainwsi, see Romans 12:2. Here, as often, Paul has put the objective symbol before the reality. The Holy Spirit does the renewing, man submits to the baptism after the new birth to picture it forth to men.

Holman's Bible Dictionary gives a nice summary of the relationship between baptism and regeneration - Some churches hold that the experience of regeneration is brought about by the act of baptism. The view which advocates this teaching is known as baptismal regeneration. The Scriptures do not present baptism as the means of regeneration but as the sign of regeneration. Peter's discussion of baptism in 1 Peter 3:21 pictures the experience of baptism as the symbol of a conscientious response to God. In other texts (Acts 2:38; Colossians 2:12; Titus 3:5) we can understand the meaning of the biblical writer by distinguishing between regeneration as an inward change and baptism as the outward sign of that change. The actual change of regeneration is an instantaneous experience brought about by the Holy Spirit. Baptism becomes a means of demonstrating publicly and outwardly the nature of this change."

There is no spiritual cleansing by plain ordinary H20, but by living water (John 3:5; 4:10,14; 7:37-39).

In regards to the blood of Christ, "through His blood" (Colossians 1:14) is a reference, not limited to the fluid as if the blood has saving properties in it's chemistry and we literally contact it in the waters of baptism, but is an expression pointing to the totality of Christ's atoning work as a sacrifice for sin. The word "cross" is used similarly to refer to the whole atoning work of Christ on the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18; Galatians 6:12,14; Ephesians 2:16).

plaintalk · Jan 30, 2017

Fran: Let me ask if you believe that Jesus said, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved?" (Mark 16: 16) I do believe that statement. If you don't believe He said that or if you believe He has told you something contrary, I can understand where you are coming from. If not, the question for all of us is, "How can we call Him, Lord, Lord and not obey?" IMO, obedience from a heart that loves the Lord, is the test or proof of our faith. I don't condemn you or anyone, that is not my job; IMO the work of a follower of Christ is to share the good news. Today is the day of salvation.

IMO, the Father, the Son and the Spirit have one name, YHWH.

Repentance in the name of Christ and baptism in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sin, began to be preached in Jerusalem on the first Pentecost after the resurrection. The thief was dead and with the Lord at that time, I believe. While Jesus was on the earth He had the authority to forgive sin.

Yes, I do like Acts; I believe that the Lord laid down the model of salvation for all men unto the end. The promise is to all that God shall call to Himself. The order of events is for all.

The point I was trying to make in quoting those Scriptures, and apparently failed, is that obedience to the truth and obeying the gospel, are part of God's plan of salvation by grace through faith. While faith is our introduction to the grace of God, it is not the end-all; hope and love now abide with faith, love being the greatest; the Lord has revealed that faith without love is meaningless (1 Cor. 13: 2) and that our faith is completed by the obedience of faith (James 2: 20-24) not by works of the law nor by works of righteousness.
God bless.

ONE BAPTISM - Ephesians 4:5

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