Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

[MattTooFor]

Until you come to the understanding that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, you will not understand end-time events and neither will your daughter

Hmmm. I didn't previously notice this post.

Anyway...your statement above is a bare-naked assertion. I'm not interested in your assertions. I'm interested in the Scriptures. Jesus told Peter, James and John to live with an expectation of encountering the abomination of desolation and a subsequent "great tribulation". Jesus did NOT say it only applied to some future generation. That is pure malarkey. A false claim.

The text states clearly...Jesus states clearly..."when you see wars"..."when they deliver you to tribulation"..."they will kill you". Your claim that these words didn't apply to Peter, James and John...pure falsehood.

Jesus' one caveat was that He Himself did not know 'the day or hour". In other words, these events COULD transpire during that very first generation of the Christian era OR it could be a generation 2000 years later. But the fact remained, Peter, James and John needed to live with the expectation...that they might live through these events.

And THUS we see the absolute death-blow to PreTribulation Rapture doctrine.

It would be highly interesting if a modern-day pre-trib proponent could time-travel back to Peter's time, let's say 10 or 20 years into his earthly ministry:

Hal Lindsey: Hey Peter, are you still living with an expectation of possibly having to go through the great tribulation?"

Peter: Uh...yes. I was never told anything different. When should I start having beliefs that CONTRADICT Jesus' teaching?

Hal Lindsey: Oh man, you need to get up to speed on PreTrib doctrine, baby.

Peter: So you're saying there were teachings that came along later which CONTRADICT what Jesus told me, James, John and Andrew? Hal, baby (since we're calling each other "baby") how can you propose CONTRADICTING what Jesus has taught us?

Hal, I am living exactly as Jesus told me, with an expectation of great tribulation. Who are you or Tim Lahaye or John Walvoord or John MacArthur or David Jeremiah...to tell me to contradict that teaching?

it is all directed to that generation of Israel whom God will be dealing with in fulfillment of that last seven years

No, it was "directed" to Peter, James and John...believers, Christians, Jesus-followers. The very text of the Olivet Discourse specifies that it is directed to "disciples"...i.e. followers of Jesus.

It is conceded even by diehard pre-tribbers that Gentile believers will be all over planet earth in innumerable numbers at the time of the abomination. Granted, such a scenario is inexplicable, given the alleged "pre-trib rapture" just a couple of years earlier (other than purely concocted doctrines about the "144,000 evangelists").

Nevertheless, gentile believers are on the scene...and when they would see this "abomination" they would need to run for the hills just as urgently as any Jews living in and around Jerusalem at that time.

By claiming that those who are gathered by the angels in Matt.24:31 as being the church, you ignore other scriptures which says that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

No. Believers are "gathered" at the time of the cosmic signs...which in turn announce the commencing of God's wrath. Believers do NOT experience God's wrath. But they DO experience the wrath of the world and the Devil.

will be those great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. who will have made it through that last seven years and specifically through the last 3 1/2 years, which Jesus referred to as "the great tribulation."

You make too many "announcements", my man. You're simply announcing your various conclusions! You have announced your conclusion that the "great tribulation" lasts exactly 3 1/2 years, 1260 days.

Let me answer your announcement with some actual argumentation! -- It can NOT last exactly 1260 days...because then they would know the exact day of the Lord's return. Secondly, Jesus says the "gathering is announced by great cosmic disturbances and He quotes OT passages which, in turn, explain that these cosmic signs announce the beginning of the Day of the Lord...a phase which MUST fit into the remainder of the 1260 days...however much time that might be.

If you are receiving clothing and following the Lord out of heaven, you would have had to already be in heaven. Those riding on white horses are also positively identified as the believers in Christ that will have previously been gathered referred to as the Lord's "called, chosen and faithful followers

Exactly!! In the pre-wrath model...the saints/elect/ekklesia are "gathered" at the time of the cosmic signs...they are taken to be with the Lord...the wrath of God is then unleashed upon the earth...and when the Lord returns to earth to establish His earthly kingdom at the end of the 1260 days, we accompany Him.

Those who had extra oil (were ready) when the bridegroom appeared, those five went into the wedding feast

That's right! After the rapture...a rapture which occurs exactly as Jesus explained to Peter, James and John:

At the time of great cosmic disturbances deep inside the second half of the 70th Week. That isn't my assumption. That is point-blank exactly what Jesus said to the disciples. It befalls you to explain why Jesus' words were NOT true for His listeners that day. That is an insurmountable task.

 

[88]

[h=3]Biblical Evidence for the Imminence of the Rapture - Pre-Trib [/h]

 

[88]

Biblical Evidence for the Imminence of the Rapture - Pre-Trib

****I like and believe in the Rapture----but ready for Tribulation in case...

[h=3]The Thomas Ice Collection - Rapture Ready[/h]

 

[RickyZ]

Hello Rickyz and Mattoofor,

What you do not understand, and I'll speak for myself is that, though I believe that the gathering of the church will take place prior to the 1st seal being opened, my faith is not based on the timing of the gathering of the church, but on Christ's shed blood. Therefore, if for some reason I misinterpreted scripture and observed some political ruler establishing a seven year covenant with Israel, then since I have done much study on end-time events, I would know him as the antichrist immediately. And I would begin to pray that God would strengthen me to keep the testimony of Christ and the word of God and to resist the antichrist and his mark system and all that was about to come upon the earth, even unto death.

I don't know why you people think that if the gathering of the church doesn't take place at the time we believe, that our faith somehow falls to pieces. What a weak faith that would be! That's just a false assumption on your part. For I would certainly recognize the antichrist and the other end-time events by what is written in scripture.



If you truly believe that the wrath of God only consists of the bowl judgments, then you seriously haven't done enough study on the subject of end-time events. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all referred to as wrath, as follows:

6th Seal: (Including the first four seals)

"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

7Th Trumpet:

"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.

Seven Bowl Judgments:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. (Note: If the seven bowls as a unit are the "last plagues of wrath" then other wrath would have had to come before them, which would be referring to the seals and the trumpets.

So as you can plainly see, there is a mentioning of God's wrath in each set of seven plagues. The fact is that, Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets, with the bowls to follow. The results of the first four seals will result in a fourth of the earth's population being killed and at the 6th trumpet a third of the earth's population is killed. Again, Jesus is the One responsible for these fatalities, for He is the One who tramples the wine-press of the wrath of God almighty and He will be carrying out that wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

I have studied it, for many many many years. I was brought up pre-trib, I actually didn't know there were other options to consider until I was in my 30's. When I heard there was dissent that's when I began to study it in depth. And that study is what changed me from pre-trib to pre-wrath.

My blog has many entries which chronical my studies and findings. I won't belabor them here.

Too, I have no doubt that should you find yourself mistaken and still here amidst the tribulation judgments, that you would have little trouble adapting. But that's not the case for a lot of people. Jesus taught about the seed among the rocks, that wither and die once the heat is on. And He also taught that in the end many will turn away from Him. Paul taught about the antichrist and the apostasy; most know about the ac but not the apostasy. But Paul put them on an equal footing, meaning we need to know and understand the apostasy just as well as we do the ac.

My understanding is that the events of the seals and trumpets, while they occur chronologically in heaven, they manifest on earth at the same time. But it is not until the end of these events that God declares His wrath has come. Too, the seals and trumpets reveal at their conclusion that wrath has now come, but the bowls from the very beginning are distinctly and unequivocally called God's wrath to be poured out. There is NO DOUBT left about what the bowls contain. Yet the seals and trumpets carry no such clear definition.

Honestly, I hope pre-trib is right. That would be sweet. But I wouldn't encourage anyone to sit back with their Cheetos and wait for rescue. God gave Noah warning and instruction to prepare. God warned us the end would come in the same way. What would have happened if Noah had ignored God? What will happen to us if we do the same?

 

[Timeline]

Hello Timeline,



One thing very important to remember in regards to interpreting end-time events that Jesus said, "On this Rock (himself) I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." All of the promises that Jesus made to his disciples are to the entire church, which he is still in the process of building. Full Preterists have all of Matt.24 and the events of Revelation as already having taken place, which would leave the majority of the church out of the Lord's promise of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18, which is our blessed hope. What I am saying is, if you have all of those events taking place and Christ returning around 70 AD, then the church that existed during the first century would be the only ones to partake of the promises of Christ, effectively excluding the majority of the church from 2nd century to present.

I will start off by saying that I do agree that Jesus is referring to Himself/God when He says "Rock".

I do not agree that everything He said to the Apostles is also given to us. For an extreme example, "When they had approached Jerusalem and had come to Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, [SUP]2 [/SUP]saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied there and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to Me. [SUP]3 [/SUP]If anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.”
I do not believe that we are supposed to go a village opposite Jerusalem and find a donkey, etc. I believe this to be a very common hermeneutical problem. The Bible was not written to us, but for us. There are direct commands given to people that we are not expected to do. Another example would be Luke 17:14 When He saw them, He said to them, “Go and show yourselves to the priests.” And as they were going, they were cleansed. Paul tells Timothy to bring him his cloak, etc., etc.


John 14:1-3 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

How is the church excluded from this statement?

I believe that salvation was and is offered under the new covenant, which was established at that time.

Hello Timeline,
Just as with all scripture, we cannot make assumptions based on our own beliefs, but we must rely on scripture in order to come to a proper conclusion. That said, both Daniel and Jesus said that the abomination would be set up in the temple, in the holy place. Therefore, the abomination cannot refer to Jesus being crucified. Furthermore, the word "bdelugma" translated "abomination" is defined as "a reeking stench that goes up before God. An detestable thing." The setting up of the abomination is what cause the desolation (fleeing) of Israel out into the desert where she will be cared for during that last 3 1/2 years of that 70th seven. Consequently, none of these events have taken place.

I believe that is what you are doing (making assumptions...) when you try to place 2,000 years inside of a specifically set amount of time. If you add time, then the time is no longer a set amount of time. I would love to be a contractor working for you, because there would be no real deadline - I could just tell you that I will be done in 6 months, but later reveal that those 6 months will be spread out over 30 years.

I agree that we must rely on scripture.

Yes, I have considered the "holy place" issue. I will concede that is a good rebuttal, but I will hold to the immediacy that scripture proclaims.

Hello Timeline,

Those people who came back to life after Christ's resurrection died again, as they were resurrected in the same manner as Lazarus and Tabitha, which was in their mortal bodies and who died again. So far, no one has resurrected in their immortal and glorified body except for Christ, with the entire church being next.

Actually, we do not know what happened to the resurrected at that time. Scripture does not tell us that they died. That would be an assumption

Hello Timeline,
If you are not believing in a literal 1,000 reign of Christ which takes place after he returns to the earth to end the age, then you are simply not believing what scripture says. From Rev.20:1-7, the words "a thousand years" are written six times. During that time, scripture states that Jesus will rule on earth from Jerusalem, the church and those great tribulation saints will rule with Christ during that thousand years, Satan and his angels will be bound in the Abyss for that same thousand years and he will be released at the end of the thousand years and the rest of the dead will not be resurrected until after the end of the thousand years. There is absolutely nothing in the context of the scripture that would lead the reader to apply a symbolic or allegorical meaning to the phrase "a thousand years."

PS I am well studied and will not flee, promise.

Again, I have not become so comfortable with any of my theories about the 1,000 years to make a firm commitment.


I will try to come back and be more thorough, I am pressed for time right now.

 

[DiscipleDave]

If anyone can show any Scriptures which proves anything here to be incorrect, i welcome the attempt.
Please keep personal views, interpretations, and the such out of it. Just show me Scriptures which proves this diagram to be incorrect. Thanks

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

1). Seals 1 thru 6 should be included as taking place within the seven years, not outside of it. Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which are the beginning of God's wrath. You are basing your chart on the belief that the wrath of God takes place after the breaking of the 6th seal which says, "The great day of their wrath has come." The words "has come" are in the aorist tense, which would include the previous seals as being apart of God's wrath that were previously opened. As an example of this, please consider the following:

"The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come."

The above is said at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. If you are going to claim that the announcement of wrath at the 6th seal must follow after, then you would have to the same thing here at the 7th trumpet, which would infer that the wrath of God begins after the 7th trumpet announcement. But the fact is that the words "your wrath has come" does not only refer to what is about to take place afterwards, but also what will have already taken place prior. It is the same with the announcement of wrath at the 6th seal, which would also include seals 1 - 4 as being apart of that wrath.

Regarding "Nations fight against Christ," that takes place at the end of the seven years, not in the middle. It is not until the pouring of the 6th bowl judgment that those three unclean spirits gather the nations to Armageddon, which would be at the very end of the seven year period. You have it marked in the middle.

Regarding the 144,000, they are not here for the entire seven years, but will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years. The male child is a collective name for the 144,000 and Rev.12:5 reveals that the male child will be caught up in the middle of the seven years.

Regarding "Christ returns with new city Jerusalem," the new Jerusalem does not come down from God until after the thousand years and after the great white throne judgment and after the new heaven and earth have been created. The new Jerusalem will never touch down on this present earth, but will come down after the new heaven and earth come into existence. That should be moved from the middle of your chart over to after the great white throne judgement.

Brother, these things are your opinion based on your own interpretations of the Scriptures. Please reread what i said above, and i have Bolded super huge this time. Show me Scriptures that shows anything in the diagram to be incorrect, not your opinions, not your interpretations, not what you think is the TRUTH, but Scriptures that proves that something in the diagram is wrong. There is not a single Scripture in all that you say above that refutes even the slightest part of what is in the diagram. If you can't then don't respond at all. But as of right now, and evident by your response here, you do not have one verse that contradicts what is in the diagram. It is quite clear though, your own interpretations, your own opinions, do contradict what is in the diagram. But that is not what i asked for, is it?
What is in the diagram is what i know to be TRUE, i already know there will be many opinions, many interpretations, that will disagree with what is in the diagram, but what i am asking for, is SCRIPTURAL PROOF that what is in the diagram can't be True.

You could say. "Dave, {Ahwatukee said} Seals 1 thru 6 should be included as taking place within the seven years, not outside of it. And the Scriptures which teaches that is found __________." Could you please try to do that instead of merely stating your opinion or your own interpretations, thanks.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

1). Seals 1 thru 6 should be included as taking place within the seven years, not outside of it.

Surely you can show the Scriptures which teaches that also?

Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which are the beginning of God's wrath.

Surely you can show the Scriptures which teaches that the opening of the first seal is at the beginning of God's wrath (7 year Tribulation Period) ?

You are basing your chart on the belief that the wrath of God takes place after the breaking of the 6th seal which says, "The great day of their wrath has come." The words "has come" are in the aorist tense, which would include the previous seals as being apart of God's wrath that were previously opened. As an example of this, please consider the following:

What i am asking for, is not an, analysis of what is in the diagram, but asking for Scriptures that proves something in the diagram is not TRUE.

"The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come."

The above is said at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. If you are going to claim that the announcement of wrath at the 6th seal must follow after, then you would have to the same thing here at the 7th trumpet, which would infer that the wrath of God begins after the 7th trumpet announcement. But the fact is that the words "your wrath has come" does not only refer to what is about to take place afterwards, but also what will have already taken place prior. It is the same with the announcement of wrath at the 6th seal, which would also include seals 1 - 4 as being apart of that wrath.

Regardless as to the reasons i use for the 6th seal to be where it is at in the diagram, that is not the topic here. The topic is, is there any Scriptures which proves that it does NOT start at the sixth seal, as is in the diagram. Also it would be wise to understand, the wrath of God has been happening ever since satan was cast out of Heaven. and the wrath of God upon man has been happening since the Garden of Eden. So just because in the 6th seal the wrath of God is mentioned, and also in the 7th seal the wrath of God is mentioned, is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Is there a Scriptural verse that shows the 7 Year Tribulation Period does NOT start at the 6th seal. Again, you are not addressing the question which i presented with the diagram.

Regarding "Nations fight against Christ," that takes place at the end of the seven years, not in the middle.

Again, show Scriptures which show that the Nations fight against Christ at the end of the seven years. If you can't show any Scripture which teaches that, how is that not your own opinion, your own interpretation? If then the diagram shows it is in the middle, is there any Scriptures which proves it can't be in the middle, this is what i am asking for, NOT your opinion when you think it is going to happen.

It is not until the pouring of the 6th bowl judgment that those three unclean spirits gather the nations to Armageddon, which would be at the very end of the seven year period. You have it marked in the middle.

This is what i am asking for, you have revealed to me something that is in Scriptures that makes the diagram incorrect. Even though you did not reveal the Scripture, i looked up the three unclean spirits and seen the Scripture for myself. i will very shortly after this post correct this diagram to reflect the gathering of the nations to be at the 6th bowl judgment.

Regarding the 144,000, they are not here for the entire seven years,

What Scriptures teaches that?

but will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years.

Scriptures teach that the Saints will be caught up to God's throne, Where is the Scripture that teaches they are the 144,000?

The male child is a collective name for the 144,000 and Rev.12:5 reveals that the male child will be caught up in the middle of the seven years.

Where are you getting this from? NOT from Scriptures. Scriptures plainly tells us how the 144,00 sealed of God are chosen, 12 thousand from each tribe. Now you say it is a male child is a collective name for the 144,000. Where in Scriptures does it teach this, what verse even suggest this new doctrine that you are teaching? i say NEW DOCTRINE because nowhere in all of Scriptures does it teach that, but Scriptures clearly teaches us a lot about the 144,000 that are sealed, and it is plainly told us that it is 12,000 from each tribe that is sealed. But now you are teaching something that is contrary to Scriptures, Surely you can show the Scriptures which support that new doctrine.

Regarding "Christ returns with new city Jerusalem," the new Jerusalem does not come down from God until after the thousand years and after the great white throne judgment and after the new heaven and earth have been created.

OK, i hear you saying these things, but where is the SCRIPTURES that support this belief? Where is it written the Holy City comes down AFTER the thousand years? Where in Scriptures does it teach it comes AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment? i have read the entire Bible over 80 times in my life, and i have never read one verse that remotely teaches any of these things. So they must be what YOU think is the TRUTH, your own interpretations, because Scriptures does not teach those things which you just said.

The new Jerusalem will never touch down on this present earth, but will come down after the new heaven and earth come into existence.

As you can see in the chart, the New Heaven and the New Earth is indeed during the time that the Holy City will come down out of Heaven. As you can see in the diagram, the whole 7 year tribulation period is due to the fact that God is destroying the Earth to create a New one. Hence the reason it says "Process" You say above the New City will come down AFTER the New Heaven and the New Earth is created, can you show the Scriptures which shows that it is AFTER. if you can, i will change the diagram to fit with what Scriptures teach, but if you can't show the Scriptures, then it is your opinion that teaches it is AFTER. OR, can you show me any Scriptures that shows it is NOT where i have it in the diagram?

That should be moved from the middle of your chart over to after the great white throne judgement.

And if you can show me Scriptures which shows that it is AFTER the Great White Throne Judgement, i will move it, but not until you show the Scriptures which shows that.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Note to self: continue at 104

 

[DiscipleDave]

Revised Diagram as of 2/6/17




Thank you Ahwatukee for helping on this correction made.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[tanakh]

I really admire Preterists. If you want an example of teeth gritting determination they have it! Creative interpretation is another talent they have in buckets. Bless them all including Zone.

 

[Ahwatukee]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

Originally Posted by Ahwatukee

[FONT=&quot]1). Seals 1 thru 6 should be included as taking place within the seven years, not outside of it.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Surely you can show the Scriptures which teaches that also?

[/FONT]I included the answer in the same post. Jesus is the One opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments. Therefore, Jesus is responsible for the resulting fatalities of the seals, which would include them as being apart of God's wrath. this understanding is arrived at by deduction and not by a specific scripture which states it.

The only reason that you put seals 1 thru 5 as taking place prior to the the beginning of the seven years, is because of the announcement at the opening of the 6th seal which says "the great day of their wrath has come." But because you don't understand that the words "has come" also includes everything that happens previous to the opening of the 6th seal, you exclude them.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are three sets of seven judgments of God's wrath and are not meant to be separated. All three sets of plagues will all take place within that seven year period, with the 1st seal initiating God's wrath.

[FONT=&quot]What i am asking for, is not an, analysis of what is in the diagram, but asking for Scriptures that proves something in the diagram is not TRUE.

[/FONT]End-time events require comparing and cross-referencing all of the related scriptures in order to come to a proper conclusion. You're not going to find any scriptures that say "here it is, it happens right here!"

[FONT=&quot]Also it would be wise to understand, the wrath of God has been happening ever since satan was cast out of Heaven.

[/FONT]There is an unprecedented wrath of God that is coming, which will decimate the majority of the population of the earth and dismantle all human government and will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Though it is true that God has poured out is wrath throughout history, what is coming will be nothing like the earth has ever seen. Jesus said that it will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. And that if those days of wrath were allowed to go on any longer than the specified time, no one on earth would be left alive.

[FONT=&quot]Is there a Scriptural verse that shows the 7 Year Tribulation Period does NOT start at the 6th seal. Again, you are not addressing the question which i presented with the diagram.

[/FONT]No, you're just not listening!

[FONT=&quot]Again, show Scriptures which show that the Nations fight against Christ at the end of the seven years. If you can't show any Scripture which teaches that, how is that not your own opinion, your own interpretation? If then the diagram shows it is in the middle, is there any Scriptures which proves it can't be in the middle, this is what i am asking for, NOT your opinion when you think it is going to happen.

[/FONT]Yes, have you read Rev.19:11-21? This is a detailed account of the Lord returning to the earth to end the age, which takes place at the end of the seven years. How do I know that? Because we have the seven year time period mentioned as 1260 days, 42 months and a time, times and a half a time. The two witnesses prophecy during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. Then we have the beast who is given authority over the great tribulation saints for 42 months to conquer them, which is referring to that last 3 1/2 years. And we also have the woman/Israel, fleeing out into the wilderness where she will be cared for during that last 3 1/2 years mentioned as 1260 days and as a time, time and half a time.

At the pouring out of the 6th bowl judgment, we have Jesus making and interjection, which demonstrates that he has not returned to the earth by the pouring out of the 6th bowl, as demonstrated below:

"“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

It is not until after the 7th bowl judgment is poured out at Rev.19:11-21 that Christ returns, which is when the nations are gathered against him, not in the middle of the seven years. Please show me the scripture that shows Christ returning in the middle of the seven years.

Originally Posted by Ahwatukee

[FONT=&quot]Regarding the 144,000, they are not here for the entire seven years,


[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What Scriptures teaches that?

[/FONT]The male child is a collective name for the 144,000 and is not representing Jesus as many claim. That said, Rev.12:5 has the male child being caught up to God and his throne in the middle of the seven years, which can be deduced by the fact that once Satan is cast down to the earth the woman/Israel who gives birth to the male child, flees out into the wilderness where she is cared for during that 1260 days i.e. the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

[FONT=&quot]Scriptures teach that the Saints will be caught up to God's throne, Where is the Scripture that teaches they are the 144,000?

[/FONT]"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne."

The woman of Revelation 12 is representing Israel.

The 144,000 are those sealed are from the twelve tribes of Israel.

Regarding the 144,000, they are said to have not defiled themselves with with woman, which would make them all males, ergo, male child. It is a clue pointing us to the male child.

The phrase "gives birth to" is in reference to those 144,000 who come out of Israel as those who will acknowledge Jesus as being their Messiah. The woman who gives birth to them is unbelieving Israel who will be cared for out in the wilderness for that last 3 1/2 years, where at some point they will say, "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."

[FONT=&quot]OK, i hear you saying these things, but where is the SCRIPTURES that support this belief? Where is it written the Holy City comes down AFTER the thousand years? Where in Scriptures does it teach it comes AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment?

The following events take place after the 7th bowl has been poured out which initiates the millennial kingdom:

[/FONT]Revelation 19:11-21 = Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom

Revelation 19:20 = The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire

Revelation 20:1-3 = Satan seized and bound in the Abyss during the thousand years

Christ's thousand year reign

Revelation 20:7 = At the end of the thousand year reign of Christ Satan is released from the Abyss and gathers Gog and Magog who are destroyed with fire by God.

Revelation 20:10 = Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown a thousand years earlier..

Revelation 20:11-15 = The judgment of the unrighteous dead takes place at the great white throne judgment, where everyone's name that is not found in the book of life is is thrown into the lake of fire.

Following the great white throne judgment:

Revelation 21 = John sees a new heaven and new earth for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Then he sees the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven i.e. during the time of the new earth.

Consider the following:

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” (Rev.21:4)

The above are characteristics that will exist within the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem, where God is going to wipe away every tear from our eyes. There will be no more death during that time. Therefore, the new Jerusalem cannot be present on this current earth during the time of God's wrath, because death will still be in operation. Many will be dying during that time, the great tribulation saints included. Death does not get thrown into the lake of fire until the great white throne judgment, which is after the thousand year reign of Christ. Death will still be in operation during the seven years and even throughout the millennial period. When scripture says that there will be no more death, that could not come to pass until death is thrown into the lake of fire which doesn't take place until after the thousand year reign of Christ.

Originally Posted by Ahwatukee

[FONT=&quot]1). Seals 1 thru 6 should be included as taking place within the seven years, not outside of it.



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Surely you can show the Scriptures which teaches that also?

Originally Posted by Ahwatukee

[FONT=&quot]1). Seals 1 thru 6 should be included as taking place within the seven years, not outside of it.[/FONT]

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Surely you can show the Scriptures which teaches that also?
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[Ahwatukee]

This was a duplicate.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I really admire Preterists. If you want an example of teeth gritting determination they have it! Creative interpretation is another talent they have in buckets. Bless them all including Zone.

Believing and teaching full preterism will send those who believe and teach it to condemning judgment. Full preterism teaches that all end-time events have already taken place, assigning those events to past historical events revolving around the destruction of temple in 70 AD. Included in this, is their belief that the resurrection has already taken place, which would put them under the same banner as Hymenaeus and Philetus, as seen below:

Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some."

Paul said that Their teaching that the resurrection had already taken place was "godless chatter" and that by doing so, they had wandered away from the truth and were destroying the faith of some. The promise of the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the living being changed and caught up, is a promise to the entire church from beginning until the time of the resurrection. Consequently, the church is still in the process of being built and therefore, the resurrection could not have yet taken place and that because it would leave the majority of the church out of the Lord's promise made in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18.

There is no blessing from God for those who hold to these teachings, for as scripture states, they have wandered away from the truth.

 

[Timeline]

Believing and teaching full preterism will send those who believe and teach it to condemning judgment. Full preterism teaches that all end-time events have already taken place, assigning those events to past historical events revolving around the destruction of temple in 70 AD. Included in this, is their belief that the resurrection has already taken place, which would put them under the same banner as Hymenaeus and Philetus, as seen below:

Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some."

Paul said that Their teaching that the resurrection had already taken place was "godless chatter" and that by doing so, they had wandered away from the truth and were destroying the faith of some. The promise of the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the living being changed and caught up, is a promise to the entire church from beginning until the time of the resurrection. Consequently, the church is still in the process of being built and therefore, the resurrection could not have yet taken place and that because it would leave the majority of the church out of the Lord's promise made in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18.

There is no blessing from God for those who hold to these teachings, for as scripture states, they have wandered away from the truth.

Paul did write that 2,000 years ago....And most likely before "70 AD".

And as I have noted before, Matt. 27:52-53 which states, "The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

I would say that there is at least some confusion as to what Hymanaeus and Philetus were teaching and what Paul was objecting to. When I posted Matt 27:52-53, you said that they died, but provided no scriptural evidence that they did. I will also take this opportunity to quote a verse that is often thrown at me: Heb. 9:27-28 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I would say that there is at least some confusion as to what Hymanaeus and Philetus were teaching and what Paul was objecting to.

I'm always amazed when people claim confusion over something that is made perfectly clear in scripture. Paul made it very clear in regards to what Hymanaeus and Philetus where teaching. No question about it. Below is exactly what they were teaching:

"Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some."

* They (Hymenaeus and Philetus) were saying that the resurrection had already taken place

* By this teaching they had departed from the truth

* Paul referred to this their teaching as godless chatter and ungodliness

* This teaching would spread like gangrene

* This teaching was destroying the faith of some

As you can plainly see from the above scripture, there is no confusion whatsoever about what these two were teaching. Jesus said, "upon this Rock I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." Well, the church is still in the process of being built. Once the church is completed, the Lord will descend and will gather the entire church, dead and living, which will bring an end to the church period, with the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to quickly follow.

When I posted Matt 27:52-53, you said that they died, but provided no scriptural evidence that they did.

I would also add that, neither does it say that they those who came out of their tombs that they were resurrected in their immoral and glorified bodies. Their resurrection was the same as that of Lazarus and Tabitha, which involved their spirits returning to their mortal bodies and then dying again. Jesus is the only One so far who has resurrected in his immortal and glorified body and the entire church is next.

 

[JaumeJ]

Why do the intelligent people who believe Jesus Christ insist on putting labels on other of the family?

My reply has to be I am of the faith of Abraham described and taught by Jesus Christ, and what I do not understand
of what I read in the Word, and this is a lot, I wait on the Lord for understanding.

I do have my own understanding of the subject here, but that and a dollar will not do anything for my Salvation; that has been sealed by the Holy Spirit because of faith in Jesus Christ.

God bless all who are in Jesus Christ and all who will come to be, amen.

 

[garee]

Paul did write that 2,000 years ago....And most likely before "70 AD".

And as I have noted before, Matt. 27:52-53 which states, "The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

Yes the first promised resurrection had come the old testament saints in whom the Spirit of Christ lived were aware of the suffering of Christ beforehand and they experienced the glory that followed .

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ "which was in them" did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow Pe 1:9


They entered the new Jerusalem seeing nothing could now prevent them .Many angels witnessed it. Christ paid the bail bond and set the captives free . It’s the same resurrection believers today enter .To be absent of the body is to be present with the Lord.

The next time he comes on the last day it is the end of the world .Those that remain reigning with Christ will be caught up and both changed in the twinkling of the eye.

I would say that there is at least some confusion as to what Hymanaeus and Philetus were teaching and what Paul was objecting to. When I posted Matt 27:52-53, you said that they died, but provided no scriptural evidence that they did. I will also take this opportunity to quote a verse that is often thrown at me: Heb. 9:27-28 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after thiscomes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

I agree. The second time, no third time

 

[garee]

Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and moreungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some."

Which resurrection? The second and final? When Christ as he promised opened their graves? Or the one on the last day, judgement day?

Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to "come up" out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, Eze 37:12

All Israel is not Israel a man must be born again a inward Jew not of the flesh.

That land speaks of the eternal land .If any man has not the Spirit of Christ they simply do not belong to Him

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Eze 37:13

I would also add that, neither does it say that they those who came out of their tombs that they were resurrected in their immoral and glorified bodies.

Can’t see a soul without a head . No one has received their glorified body. Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven and even Christ said of his own temporal flesh, it could never enter, as if God was a man as us.

2Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Their resurrection was the same as that of Lazarus and Tabitha, which involved their spirits returning to their mortal bodies and then dying again.

So they had an out of the body experince?

Jesus is the only One so far who has resurrected in his immortal and glorified body and the entire church is next.

God is not a man as us. He is eternal Spirit without mother or father beginning of days or end of Spirit life.

 

[PlainWord]

Listen. The Great Tribulation of Mat 24:21 was indeed in 66-70 AD and is over!! I'm nearly finished reading "War" by Josephus and unless you've read it, you really have no business commenting about the Great Tribulation because absolutely EVERYTHING that Jesus foretells in Mat 24 happened in 66-70 AD. Indeed, it was the Great Tribulation and Great Wrath of God against that wickedest of generations.

But the resurrection is yet future to us. Yes, some awoke with Christ some ~40 years before the Great Tribulation and they walked around the city. Either these were first fruits with Christ or they died again having been close enough in their graves for the power of His resurrection to awaken them. Either way, the main resurrection is yet future and is in conjunction with the last day.

A future "tribulation" is coming. This is the final wrath tribulation hinted at in Mat 24:28. This tribulation is where the wicked (not righteous!!!) are taken as discussed in Mat 24:40-41. This Tribulation is not for us. We are left behind to be gathered. There simply is no rapture to heaven to avoid anything. This doctrine is false and quite unnecessary. We are not appointed to this wrath.

 

[Willie-T]

Listen. The Great Tribulation of Mat 24:21 was indeed in 66-70 AD and is over!! I'm nearly finished reading "War" by Josephus and unless you've read it, you really have no business commenting about the Great Tribulation because absolutely EVERYTHING that Jesus foretells in Mat 24 happened in 66-70 AD. Indeed, it was the Great Tribulation and Great Wrath of God against that wickedest of generations.

But the resurrection is yet future to us. Yes, some awoke with Christ some ~40 years before the Great Tribulation and they walked around the city. Either these were first fruits with Christ or they died again having been close enough in their graves for the power of His resurrection to awaken them. Either way, the main resurrection is yet future and is in conjunction with the last day.

A future "tribulation" is coming. This is the final wrath tribulation hinted at in Mat 24:28. This tribulation is where the wicked (not righteous!!!) are taken as discussed in Mat 24:40-41. This Tribulation is not for us. We are left behind to be gathered. There simply is no rapture to heaven to avoid anything. This doctrine is false and quite unnecessary. We are not appointed to this wrath.

But some people live with a seemingly insatiable need to be punished. And for them, the idea of a Great Tribulation is truly compelling, appealing and inviting.

 

[JustWhoIAm]

But some people live with a seemingly insatiable need to be punished. And for them, the idea of a Great Tribulation is truly compelling, appealing and inviting.

It's a brave new beautiful apocalyptic world, man!