Originally Posted by
DiscipleDave
Question concerning this verse:
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;
This part of the
punishment is still ongoing given to the woman by God Himself. When did the next part of the same verse cease to exist?
... and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
my question is, Where in all of Scriptures, has this part of the
punishment given to women by God Himself, cease to be? Where is it written it is no longer a punishment? Where is it written that women are now excluded from this part of the punishment?...
We differ in that I see these statements as consequences, not punishments.
In what we are discussing the consequences of her actions resulted in the punishment given. whether you choose to view it as a consequence or a punishement is irrelevent, it was a result of something that she did, and my point is, it is still in effect to this day. A consequence of her actions which resulted in sorrow at giving birth, is still in effect to this very day, and has not been lifted or ceased. Which is why you have missed the entire point of what i was saying. The consequences of her actions which resulted in her husband having the rule over her, also has not been lifted, nor are we instructed via Scriptures a particular time that it is to be stopped. What you did here instead of answer the questions presented is called, "redirection" instead of answering, you address some other issue. If you would like i could repeat the entire post, and substitute every word "Punishment" to "Consequence" will you then answer the questions presented or misdirect on something else?
If I see my child riding his bike with no hands on the bars and tell him, "You will crash and hurt yourself" is that punishment or is it consequence?
Actually it is neither. By merely stating to the child "You will crash and hurt yourself" is neither a punishment or a consequence. But a statement only. Now if that child crashes, that is a consequence of that person actions, if you, as the parent, impose a consequence on that child for not obeying you, that is a punishment.
God cursed the ground and the serpent, and he spoke consequences to Adam and Eve. One's perspective on this colours the later passages significantly.
No it really doesn't. whether you think it is a punishment or a consequence, it was still imposed upon the woman, and is in effect to this very day. It is not Gods fault that women in America have taken it upon themselves to negate the consequences that God imposed upon women for what happened in the Garden. Not His fault at all, they have taken it upon themselves to lift it, to strike it from existence, to rule the husband instead of the husband ruling them. (OR to have neither rule over the other, but are equal rulers together, altogether CHANGING the consequence that God gave to the woman.
I agree with your last sentence. I look at the whole tenor of how women were treated under the old law, versus how Jesus treated them.
How women were treated then and prior to "woman equal with man movement" women were treated awful, they were treated like slaves, they were mistreated, they were abused physically, and mentally, they were degraded by men, they were belittled, and a whole slew of other things that they were wickedly treated by men. The consequences of continued treatment of women in such a way, is the reason women had enough, and started standing up for themselves. But two wrongs don't make a right. If a person, man or woman, is going to live a Godly life, they will abide in the Word of God and live by what it says to do. PERIOD. Those who are DOERS of the Word are they that are justified, NOT THOSE who are NOT Doers of the Word, even though they may claim with their mouths they are justified. If you or anyone for that matter wants to be a Godly woman, a woman after Gods heart, then i suggest you start learning how to live by what the Bible says. Start reading books on the subject matter. One that i read myself is called "The Help Mate" by Jenny Duffy. There are many such books out there that God made readily available to all women who seek to be a Godly woman and a Godly wife. There is no excuse why your not. This likewise applies to men as well. There are many books out there about how to treat your wife as well.
I consider that Paul said women were to prophesy (a public speaking ministry), that Prisca was a teacher who taught Apollos, and that Junia was an apostle... among other instances.
Just because someone says something to another person does not mean they have authority over them. My Boss has authority over me, he tells me what to do, i do it, he tells me to do that, i do that, he tells me to do this, i do this. He has authority over me. But just because i say to him "Boss, if i were you i would not do this or that" does not mean i have authority over him, because i merely tell him something, it is still his choice whether he chooses to listen to my suggestion or discard it. So just because these women said something to others, does not mean they had authority over them. This generation would do well to know that. Instead of using these verses to back up their own false doctrines that teach woman can have authority over men, then use these verses to back up that perverse teaching, which is contrary to the teachings of Scriptures.
I look at the two passages Samuel quoted above, and consider that as they are presented in most English translations, they seem to contradict both Jesus and Paul otherwise... so I look deeper, past the English and my surface understanding of the context. What I discovered, and what Angela's posts explain more clearly, is that the English of these verses is misleading and possibly even contrary to the meaning in Greek.
So what you are basically saying, but not saying, is Scriptures is wrong. What? Did God not know that in the last days women would become equal with men, and forgot to mention something in that effect? i though ALL Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for instruction, but now i am hearing from you, that it really isn't, that it needs to be changed because the English isn't right or something like that, Let us not believe the INSPIRED BY GOD SCRIPTURES because it just may be contrary to the Greek or Hebrew. So since we are now permitted to change a verse, let us change all the verses in Scriptures that we do not agree with. Wait, that is already done via hundreds of other versions of the Bible, all of them teaching their own interpretations of what they think verses should actually say and mean, thereby ADDING to or TAKING AWAY from the Word of God to suit their own interpretations of what they THINK is the TRUTH. So go ahead and change those verses to mean something else because the English is wrong, or it may be contrary to Greek or Hebrew, as long as we don't have to believe what the verse actually says, right? Woe to this wicked and perverse generation, who would rather change Scriptures to fit their own thinking of the TRUTH, instead of changing what they think to fit the TRUTH of Scriptures. woe to them indeed, blind, refusing to see the Truth when it is presented to them.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I understand the desire to accept and follow the plain text, and if people simply hold their convictions and respectfully present them, I have no issue. What I do take issue with is when people attack other believers who see things differently, or consider them to be inferior/unsaved/apostate/heretical/under God's judgment. Such attitudes are unnecessary, unhelpful, and demonstrate a lack of good fruit.
100% agree with this.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
