Women Pastors? Help me.
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Sometimes a little common sense will take a fellow a long way. The only place women were forbidden to speak, teach, or prophesy was in the assembly of the Church. Paul makes this very clear at the beginning of this discussion. Since this prohibition was limited to this condition then she is free to speak, teach, or prophesy at any time outside of this stipulated condition.
I hear ya, but this stuff about a woman usurping authority over a man & connecting that to the church is like God telling all women, "Look, you can go anywhere & say any thing I tell you, but you cannot speak at My church..... it's forbidden".
Look, I'm not trying to pull one on you, what I'm saying is making those scriptures mean this is not treating women equally, when God says He's no respecter of persons.
Look, I'm not trying to pull one on you, what I'm saying is making those scriptures mean this is not treating women equally, when God says He's no respecter of persons.
Symbolism has never been a big thing for me, but weighing certain theologies against God's nature & His unchanging standards is.
So, christian men can go into any ministry without limits, because they aren't under the curse of sin, and women can't?
Please show something NT besides these two one-verse wonders.
My point is if this was such a big deal in the NT, Jesus Himself wouldn't have dealt with, nor discipled a woman when her ministry would have been near useless.
I'm opening myself up to being taken to school..... Tell me some biblical facts, not symbolism. I'm always willing to learn.
Symbolism has never been a big thing for me, but weighing certain theologies against God's nature & His unchanging standards is.
So, christian men can go into any ministry without limits, because they aren't under the curse of sin, and women can't?
Please show something NT besides these two one-verse wonders.
My point is if this was such a big deal in the NT, Jesus Himself wouldn't have dealt with, nor discipled a woman when her ministry would have been near useless.
I'm opening myself up to being taken to school..... Tell me some biblical facts, not symbolism. I'm always willing to learn.
Then this is perhaps where we need to start. A symbol is an object or and idea that is a reflection of something that is greater than itself. The OT is replete with symbolism, particularly in the Levitical system and the sacrificial system. For example, the offering of the animal (although quite real) was not the reality. It merely represented a sacrifice that was greater than itself. I am sure you can see this. The NT is also filled with much symbolism. What these symbols mean is not a matter of interpretation but of revelation. God alone attaches meaning to revealed symbols. What I mean by a revealed symbol is a symbol that is provided by the revelation of the biblical text itself. So, the question is this, how is the woman represented in scripture as a symbol, what does she symbolize and how does she symbolize it?
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S
https://www.gci.org/church/ministry/women9
https://godswordtowomen.org/Preato2.htm
https://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/materials/bible-nt-texts/1-corinthians-1434-35
Oxford Bible Church - 1 Corinthians 14:34-35: Should Women be Silent in Church?
If you still don't get it after reading these four articles then I'm afraid to say you have been inculcated into your own predispositional bias.
https://godswordtowomen.org/Preato2.htm
https://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/materials/bible-nt-texts/1-corinthians-1434-35
Oxford Bible Church - 1 Corinthians 14:34-35: Should Women be Silent in Church?
If you still don't get it after reading these four articles then I'm afraid to say you have been inculcated into your own predispositional bias.
Do not bore me with links. I have absolutely no intention of wasting my time with them and I can tell you from 40+ years of experience that they will have nothing to say I have not heard before, believe me. Since you are the one who accused me of being out of context, I want YOU to explain the context of 1Cor 14 to me. If you feel I am out of context then explain to me how.
By oldhermit
Why is the submission of the woman such a big deal? Why does Paul spend so much time stressing this particular issue in so many different places? Contrary to popular belief, these two texts are not the only ones where Paul addresses the submission of women in the Church. If this is such a small matter as some argue, why is so much time dedicated to it?
What we learn about the woman's place in this hierarchy of authority is that she is the ultimate symbol of the Church and its relationship to God. I think most women either overlook this or just simply do not appreciate the significance of the symbolism of the woman in the Church. They do not seem to appreciate the fact that this is a most honored position. The woman's position in relation to man is designed to reflect the relationship of the Church to Christ.
The woman is the feminine in her relationship to man and in just the same way, the Church is always represented as feminine in its relationship to Christ. She is the bride just as the Church is the bride. Just as the Church must always assume the position of submission to its head – Christ, so also must the woman always assume the position of subordination to her head – the man; and this is the only position she is permitted to occupy. Man represents God and woman represents the Church. Scripture reveals a number of ways in which this symbolism is reflected such as the covering of the head while praying or prophesying, being silent in the assembly, not assuming authority over the man, not presuming to teach or preach in the assembly, and being excluded from serving as elders. When the woman fails to honor any of this, she violates the symbol.
A. Ephesians 5:22-32 speaks volumes about the symbolism of the woman.
“Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. (This emphasizes the degree to which she is to be in submission.) For the husband is the head of the wife, asChristalsoistheheadofthechurch, (This establishes the symbolism.) He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.”(And this is an unqualified statement that offers NO exceptions.)
“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.' (She is one with man just as the Church is one with Christ.) This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.”
Because the woman occupies such an honored position in her symbolism she is to be the recipient of tenderness, love, nurturing, supreme sacrifice (the husband must be willing to die for her). Her husband is to cherish her and regard her as holy, spotless, and blameless. When the man fails to do this, he dishonors the symbolism. This his how Christ honors the Church so, this is how the husband is to honor the wife.
B. Timothy 2:9-15
1. “Likewise, women are to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.(A woman's beauty is not reflected in outward adornment but in her conduct, her behavior.) A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.”
Why is the woman to “quietlyreceiveinstructionwithentiresubmissiveness,” because of the symbolism, this is how the Church is to receive her instruction from the Lord – quietly, with entire submissiveness. The woman as the symbol of the Church must reflect this same attitude.
2. “But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. (How does she reflect the symbolism in this? Would the Church presume to instruct the Lord? Would the Church presume to exorcise authority over the Lord?) For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.” Restraint is to be self-imposed just as the Church is to exercise self-restraint in all things.
C. Titus 1:1-5
“Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.” Her behavior must reflect that of the Church of which she stands as a symbol.
D. Corinthians 11:3-12
“But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.”
E. 1Corinthians 14:24-36,“The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?”
1. This is a reciprocal relationship. This defines a relationship in which duties and obligations are owed by one individual to another and vice versa. A reciprocal contract is one in which both parties enter into a mutual agreement. Paul presents the hierarchy of authority in this way...
God
|
Christ
|
Man
|
Woman
The hierarchy of authority flows in only one direction with authority flowing from God down to man, (authority never flows from the bottom up,) and obligation being given upward from man to God. Our obligation to God in this relationship represents a reciprocal of status in which God stipulates the meaning of terms and assigns his own meaning to revealed symbols. This reciprocal is never reversed. Man is never allowed to occupy the status of the woman and the woman is never allowed to occupy the status of the man. This was reflected in the issue of the head covering and the wearing of long hair. It is also reflected in the teaching and remaining silent. Our current society has absolutely destroyed the meaning of the woman as a symbol. Popular rationalism and human experience insists that the assigned symbolism of the woman in the Church is out of date, sexist, archaic, chauvinistic and evil. This prohibition is deemed unnecessarily burdensome upon women. It is regarded as unreasonable and irrational. Submission to this divine prohibition involves an act of faith. Violation of it then is necessarily an act of faithlessness. Society has so deteriorated that it no longer recognizes the honored position of the woman. In fact, society has become so depraved that it doesn't even know which bathroom to use any more. Yet, they regard themselves as the enlightened ones.
By refusing to acknowledge the revealed status by refusing to be in submission, (which Paul says is exemplified here in her remaining silent in the assembly) violates this status. The woman is seen here as the terminus symbol. In this hierarchy of authority, she is the final link of symbolism which in reality represents the whole. When she refuses to render submission, she steps out of this reciprocal and out of revealed symbolism.
2. This status is stipulated by God who is the ultimate governing authority. God has designated the symbolism in this way...
Male/husband = “image and glory of God.”
Woman/wife = “glory of man.”
The argument from the Law show the timeless of this revealed principle.Theyareto“subject themselves, just as the Law also says.” Revealed principles never change and they are never overturned.
Paul uses the appointed stewardship of the gospel to reinforce the symbolism. “Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?” If God had entrusted woman with the gospel, of if she alone had received, then would have changed all the rules. But, he did not. God did not entrust the word of God to woman, but to man. This has absolutely nothing to do with superior intelligence, abilities, talents, or skills. This is in keeping with the divinely established symbolism of both the man and the woman. For the woman to assume the role of the teacher or the preacher, she is refusing to acknowledge her assigned place in the revelation continuum. For the man surrender his place in this revelation continuum to the woman destroys the symbolism of the hierarchy of authority.
F. Resistance
DO NOT INFRINGE UPON THE REVEALED MEANING OF SYMBOLS, not by personal preference nor by social norms. Revelation must be allowed to burden our behavior and this is not related to society or culture nor is it controlled by time.
The source of contention in verses 37-38 is not revelation. It is human reason that attempts to assign its own meaning to revealed symbols. “If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is to be ignored.”
S
Well if that's how you go about learning then nothing I can say will educate you because you refuse to be educated and if I do show you the proper context you'll just deny it so there's not really much to talk about is there? By the way I've been reading and studying the Bible for over 45 years and it took me awhile to get that women are just as equally valuable to God as men are. If you're a die-hard complementarian then there really is nothing I can say at this point in your life that'll make or convince you to see the Bible from an egalitarian point of view. Believe me I have that experience in spades and it never works.
Tell me, do you believe the Bible ever contradicts itself? If no, then why do you believe what you do about
1 Corinthians 14, when Paul said the exact opposite in 1 Corinthians 11 and 12?
Tell me, do you believe the Bible ever contradicts itself? If no, then why do you believe what you do about
1 Corinthians 14, when Paul said the exact opposite in 1 Corinthians 11 and 12?
Stephen, a woman's role of being quiet and submissive in a Worship Service, never was part of any curse. It is simply God's WILLED order of things within a worship service environment. WHY? Women are given a more important role than men, in that they are to picture to ALL others the ROLE of the BRIDE to the BRIDEGROOM; and to teach this kind of submissive obedience to their Children and the younger women. Therefore they influence TWO and maybe the next THREE generations by being faithfully obedient to HIS WILL. Men on the other hand rarely influence more than the current generation.
To deliberately go outside GOD'S WILL for the order of things in a Worship Service environment, is to GO THE WAY OF CAIN.
Jude 1:11 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain
{Worshiping my way, instead of GOD's way.}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjpMafTTMFQ
and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error
{Using religion and preaching as a way to make self rich.}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb2q_BzNHl4
and perished in Korah’s rebellion.
{Mixing anything else with the true gospel and true worship,
such as the Kundalini Awakening.}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ZvPwFamqs&t=375s
To deliberately go outside GOD'S WILL for the order of things in a Worship Service environment, is to GO THE WAY OF CAIN.
Jude 1:11 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain
{Worshiping my way, instead of GOD's way.}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjpMafTTMFQ
and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error
{Using religion and preaching as a way to make self rich.}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb2q_BzNHl4
and perished in Korah’s rebellion.
{Mixing anything else with the true gospel and true worship,
such as the Kundalini Awakening.}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ZvPwFamqs&t=375s
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