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The seals, trumpets, vials are all versions of the same events, told serially.
I'm gonna swipe this pic from Hizi:
I'm gonna swipe this pic from Hizi:
I think that I may have seen this chart years ago.
I look at the seals and trumpets as consecutive, ending with the 7th trumpet as the 2nd/last resurrection.
And the vials running at the same time as the trumpets.
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He's long past pushing up daises...
I'm still waiting for you to explain this non-existent "Pentecost Kingdom".
I'm still waiting for you to explain this non-existent "Pentecost Kingdom".
Pentecost Kingdom (church).
Maybe you missed the word that said CHURCH.
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Well, I'm glad that you TOTALLY agree with my description of the "man of sin".
Since you offer no counter points.
Call it a "pentecost" kingdom if you like.
As for your man of sin idea, I can't say yea or nay - he could quite easily have been one of the Jewish leadership.
I can't agree with this - the "man of sin" is gone - *poof* in the 1st century AD.
I can't agree with this either - the word Greek translated as "consume" means to destroy.
How does that confirm anything? Christ used the Romans to judge Israel in the same way God used foreign armies in the past.
You are mistakenly thinking that the Roman beast is still active today - I'm guessing you think alive and well in the RC church.
Just about all agree that Rome was the 4th beast, that fizzled out in the 5th century.
You are all over the place.
As for your man of sin idea, I can't say yea or nay - he could quite easily have been one of the Jewish leadership.
I can't agree with this - the "man of sin" is gone - *poof* in the 1st century AD.
I can't agree with this either - the word Greek translated as "consume" means to destroy.
How does that confirm anything? Christ used the Romans to judge Israel in the same way God used foreign armies in the past.
You are mistakenly thinking that the Roman beast is still active today - I'm guessing you think alive and well in the RC church.
Just about all agree that Rome was the 4th beast, that fizzled out in the 5th century.
You are all over the place.
The seals, trumpets, vials are all versions of the same events, told serially.
I'm gonna swipe this pic from Hizi:
I'm gonna swipe this pic from Hizi:
Hello Locutus,
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are not going to run concurrently as the chart above suggests and below is the reason why:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed"
The scripture above clearly states that the bowl judgements are LAST and that because with them God's wrath is completed. Since the bowls are treated as a unit and are said to be last, then other wrath as to come before them. Also, that they are said to be LAST would infer that they take place in a chronological order.
You're not going to have the 1st seal, 1st trumpet and 1st bowl running concurrently and that because the reference to the bowl judgments being LAST would make no sense, if they were to be running at the same time.
Church is gathered prior to God's wrath
1st seal
2nd seal
3rd seal
4th seal
5th seal
6th seal
7th seal
------- 1st trumpet
------- 2nd trumpet
------- 3rd trumpet
------- 4th trumpet
------- 5th trumpet
------- 6th trumpet
------- 7th trumpet
---------------- 1st bowl
---------------- 2nd bowl
---------------- 3rd bowl
---------------- 4th bowl
---------------- 5th bowl
---------------- 6th bowl
---------------- 7th bowl
---------------------- Jesus returns to the earth with his church to end the age
No - you are trying to take Daniel in a far too literal sense:
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Ask your self this, how can the kingdom be set up that breaks into pieces something that not longer exists "the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold"?
You have to notice that all of the four Kingdoms had ruled over the Israelites at one time.
We are told that in the days of the fourth kingdom there would be set up a kingdom "which shall never be destroyed" - that is your "Pentecost" kingdom that exists to this day.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
In the 1st century AD the physical kingdom of Israel was shaken and removed, replaced by the spiritual "Pentecost" kingdom that "cannot be moved".
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Ask your self this, how can the kingdom be set up that breaks into pieces something that not longer exists "the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold"?
You have to notice that all of the four Kingdoms had ruled over the Israelites at one time.
We are told that in the days of the fourth kingdom there would be set up a kingdom "which shall never be destroyed" - that is your "Pentecost" kingdom that exists to this day.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
In the 1st century AD the physical kingdom of Israel was shaken and removed, replaced by the spiritual "Pentecost" kingdom that "cannot be moved".
If you had belonged to one of the seven churches when they received a copy of Revelation and you heard the leader start to read as follows .....
The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place
and he made it known by sending his Angel to his servant John who bore witness to the word of God and the
testimony of Jesus Christ even to all that he saw. Blessed is he that reads aloud the words of the prophecy and blessed are those who hear and keep what is written therein for the time is short
Rev 1:1-2 RSV
If you were a member of that Congregation how long would you think there was left before it all took place? Would it possibly be 2000 plus years? Revelation is not just about the future it is about the here and now wherever that happens to be for the person reading it. For the first century Christians Rome was Babylon Nero or Domitian was the Antichrist. The Bible uses metaphors and symbols from the OT to help us understand it. The whole message of the Bible is about the kingdom of God and how we are to return to that relationship with him that we once had in Eden before the fall.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place
and he made it known by sending his Angel to his servant John who bore witness to the word of God and the
testimony of Jesus Christ even to all that he saw. Blessed is he that reads aloud the words of the prophecy and blessed are those who hear and keep what is written therein for the time is short
Rev 1:1-2 RSV
If you were a member of that Congregation how long would you think there was left before it all took place? Would it possibly be 2000 plus years? Revelation is not just about the future it is about the here and now wherever that happens to be for the person reading it. For the first century Christians Rome was Babylon Nero or Domitian was the Antichrist. The Bible uses metaphors and symbols from the OT to help us understand it. The whole message of the Bible is about the kingdom of God and how we are to return to that relationship with him that we once had in Eden before the fall.
Rome is not and was not Babylon - the great city of the book of revelation is none other than apostate Jerusalem of the first century AD.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee.....
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Unless one can find two judgements for killing the prophets on Jesus' lips then Rev 18:24 is the same judgement as the one in 70 AD.
If the judgement in 70 AD was for killing the prophets, then there can be no later judgement for the same crimes.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee.....
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Unless one can find two judgements for killing the prophets on Jesus' lips then Rev 18:24 is the same judgement as the one in 70 AD.
If the judgement in 70 AD was for killing the prophets, then there can be no later judgement for the same crimes.
If Polycarp the bishop of Smyrna was right they probably thought "who is the church of Smyrna?" based on what he said in chapter 11 CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Philippians (Polycarp) and comparing it to when Paul wrote to the Phillipians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_Philippians
What's yer point - spit it out man...
In chapter 11 Polycarp says "had not yet known him" so the church of Smyrna had not been established when Paul wrote Philippians (approx.ad62) it was established probably by John after this point and before he was at Patmos. So if the Church at Smyrna is mentioned in Revelation,(Revelation 2:8) then Revelation was written after Smyrna became a Church "known the Lord" but he says they(Smyrna) had not become Christian's at that time.
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I thought that's where you were heading.
This is the text:
"Do we not know that the saints shall judge the world? 1 Corinthians 6:2 as Paul teaches. But I have neither seen nor heard of any such thing among you, in the midst of whom the blessed Paul laboured, and who are commended in the beginning of his Epistle. For he boasts of you in all those Churches which alone then knew the Lord; but we [of Smyrna] had not yet known Him. I am deeply grieved, therefore, brethren, for him (Valens) and his wife; to whom may the Lord grant true repentance!"
So who is "him" they had not known - Paul or Valens?
Even if Paul had not been to Smyrna that does not mean it had not been established during his life time by some other in like manner as "whoever" started the church in Rome.
This is the text:
"Do we not know that the saints shall judge the world? 1 Corinthians 6:2 as Paul teaches. But I have neither seen nor heard of any such thing among you, in the midst of whom the blessed Paul laboured, and who are commended in the beginning of his Epistle. For he boasts of you in all those Churches which alone then knew the Lord; but we [of Smyrna] had not yet known Him. I am deeply grieved, therefore, brethren, for him (Valens) and his wife; to whom may the Lord grant true repentance!"
So who is "him" they had not known - Paul or Valens?
Even if Paul had not been to Smyrna that does not mean it had not been established during his life time by some other in like manner as "whoever" started the church in Rome.
One of the luxuries of being "outside of the camps" is that I have no desire to defend either so I see it quite easy to just see what things actually say. If I was in one camp or the other then I would be compelled to see certain things in a view that would benefit the camp I considered myself in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarp died somewhere around ad153-156 and he was either 86 years old or had been a Christian for 86 years. So he would have been converted or born around ad70.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smyrna about half way down this page both Irenaeus and Tertullian say who and when Polycarp was taught by and made bishop of the Church at Smyrna, John.
In post #109 of this thread I gave basically the same information but for a different reason,but without the links,lol. http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/147567-behold-bridegroom-cometh-6.html . To me if Polycarp,Irenaeus,and Tertullian who lived much closer to when the Church at Smyrna was established,if not from the beginning in Polycarps case, held that this was what was so in this matter and believed by the churches in Asia who am I to argue against them and try to determine other wise. The only reason why me or anyone else would ponder to rearrange this many facts about when the Church at Smyrna was established would be to preserve an camps stance,again "I am outside the camps and have no desire to defend either.".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarp died somewhere around ad153-156 and he was either 86 years old or had been a Christian for 86 years. So he would have been converted or born around ad70.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smyrna about half way down this page both Irenaeus and Tertullian say who and when Polycarp was taught by and made bishop of the Church at Smyrna, John.
In post #109 of this thread I gave basically the same information but for a different reason,but without the links,lol. http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/147567-behold-bridegroom-cometh-6.html . To me if Polycarp,Irenaeus,and Tertullian who lived much closer to when the Church at Smyrna was established,if not from the beginning in Polycarps case, held that this was what was so in this matter and believed by the churches in Asia who am I to argue against them and try to determine other wise. The only reason why me or anyone else would ponder to rearrange this many facts about when the Church at Smyrna was established would be to preserve an camps stance,again "I am outside the camps and have no desire to defend either.".