Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer

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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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James 2:20-25 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
What works salvationists don't realize is that James is NOT teaching that we are saved by works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
*Notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

[SUP]22[/SUP]You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Faith was perfected by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved many years later in Genesis 22 based on his works.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous," not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds.”

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (just like our works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9). James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith "in Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24).

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Rahab believed in the Lord with a living faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her faith. She proved that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all true believers prove theirs.

Paul and James completely go together and do not cancel each other out.
Amen! James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), Paul is discussing the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I honestly think if examined the inability to answer that question may set a person free.
I have said this alot.. If we would look deep inside as to why we refuse to answer (most likely because we can't) it could expose a hard heart.

It did for me..
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Because Calvinism is a hindrance to His Gospel. And I would like to advance His Gospel. So I stay.

Same with Arminianism. They hinder and hide the Gospel from unbelievers, so I stay to advance His Gospel.
we do get the calvin vs arminian fights.. In fact,, If you teach grace, many will call you calvanist, That is where the "OSAS" term comes from I come to find out. thats why I stopped tryign to discuss OSAS, people see it and automatically think Calvin.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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And have you ever sinned and neglected to repent? Ever? like in the last 24 hours? Are you sure?
I honestly think if examined the inability to answer that question may set a person free.
No person can say "no" because they do not know the answer to this question.
God knows if we sin or not, and if we were aware or not of it.

Now I stand before God and not man, and I will not claim that which I do not know.
And I will not rely on pride or my memory.

I can say I will repent of all sin I am aware of and not hold back. I have followed this
since coming to faith. And this is my walk.

I have been accused of sin here, but until I understand it and agree that it is a sin,
I cannot repent of it, feel sorrow about it and commit myself not to do it again.

This is our commitment and heart in following Christ.

Why I am happy to share this is because this is the road of discipleship and following,
a path we should all follow to follow Christ.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Sin in the last 24 hrs?

I am not aware of any sin in the last 24 hrs. Should I be? If you know of something
I would not want to have this between me and the Lord, or anyone else here.

I am sure EG would be happy to tell you of all the sins I have commited, lol.
I though find this condemnatory and inventing sins approach itself sinful behaviour and
intended to bring condemnation and guilt on an individual rather than love and grace.

Our ministry is not to condemn but bring life, and encourage walking in the Spirit, in
the things of God, the fruits of the Spirit and learning how to love ourselves and our
neighbours in Spirit and truth. I would hope all followers of Jesus would agree with this.
 
Dec 3, 2016
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I am not aware of any sin in the last 24 hrs
I doubt very seriously that in the last 24 hours everything you've done was done with absolute, 100% perfection.

Even mistakes and forgetting stuff is falling short of God's absolute perfection so none of us can measure up to that.

That's why the Lord said this thru Paul:

Romans 8:3-6
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

God desires to treat us as though we are perfect which is fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

We should walk upright before the Lord with sincerity forsaking our sin and the carnal ways of this world... and the cool thing about it is... He desires to live in us to empower us to walk in the Spirit.

Unfortunately, we are still free moral agents who have the ability to turn away and walk after our own fleshly desires... otherwise God would not have put warnings in His Word concerning the consequences of walking after the flesh and the ways of this sinful, dark world in which we live.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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That simply means God knows in advance how many days each person is going to live.... cause he knows all things past, present and future.

The word also says it's appointed unto man once to die... but God does say He is the One deciding when.

Either the Lord lied in Pslams 91 or He didn't.

I've had guns pulled on me numerous times and for some odd reason they no shooteth me... cause I'm not scared to die and God ain't done with me!

There are many, many times the Lord has saved each of us from death and in most cases we were not even aware of it.

There are things man can do to shorten his life, and there are things man can do to lengthen his life.
You have a lot to learn for sure......!
 
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the last 2 paragraphs are some of the most arrogant garbage I have ever red. you know our hearts, you " speak from Christ" , wow. what a load of junk.

you need to get a big bottle of humility , and drink every bit of it. and apologize for constantly saying you know things you darn well do not.
Sounds like Diamond Dave.....He said JESUS would call him by his CC name and reference his teachings on the day of judgment so a to condemn those who teach grace/faith salvation.....
 
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Matthew 18:12 - “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?"
According to some he just lets them wander off and die lost....even though he said...

He that began a good work will FINISH IT....
I will LOSE NOTHING that the FATHER has given me....
We are SEALED unto the day of redemption.....

This is what I hear from the workers for and those who say it can be lost--->>blah blah blah
 
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You have a lot to learn for sure......!
How so? Explain in detail why what I said was wrong.

Maybe you aren't sure of the authority we have in Christ Jesus???

You don't reckon satan is more powerful than what Jesus did on the Cross do ya?

Shirley not...
 
Dec 12, 2013
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How so? Explain in detail why what I said was wrong.

Maybe you aren't sure of the authority we have in Christ Jesus???

You don't reckon satan is more powerful than what Jesus did on the Cross do ya?

Shirley not...
Because you dismissed Job 14 out of hand and the fact that GOD has predetermined every man's allotted time the under the sun......

New American Standard Bible
"Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with You; And his limits You have set so that he cannot pass.

King James Bible
Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass
 
Dec 3, 2016
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Because you dismissed Job 14
OK, you have dismissed Psalms 91 where the Lord says He that dwells in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty....I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in Him will I trust....because he hath set his love upon Me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he has known My Name....he shall call upon Me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honor him....with long life will I satisfy him, and show him my salvation (deliverance).

Job 14 does not supersede and is not more true than what God promised in Psalms 91... God cannot lie so it's not possible for the Lord to oppose Himself by making one promise and them making another promise that opposes it.

Job 14 is simply making the statement that God knows in advance when man (each person as well as all men) will die.

This is in agreement with Hebrews 9:27 which states it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment... God never said He will decide when each man dies. If He does that, He is not allowing man to reap what he sows.

The exception of course is when men get exceedingly evil God can and sometimes does whack 'em to protect others.

Each person thru their beliefs and actions (sowing) determines whether they will have a long life or a short life (reaping)

Here's another promise to be able to live a long life...

Ephesians 6:1-3
Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Honor thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)
That it may be well with thee, and thou may live long on the earth.

And, Jesus... teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom which is what Christians are supposed to be living under (some don't cause they've been taught religion instead of God's Word) said this:

Luke 10:19
I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Job 14 does not conflict with Psalms 91, Ephesians 6:1-3, or Luke 10:19

But hey, if you want to apply having a short life unto yourself... you certainly can if that's what you would like to do.
 
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Dec 2, 2016
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Both sides are kind of right, of course God knows the length of our days, if He did not then God would be caught off guard. On the other hand, what we do does often determine what happens to us even how long we may live.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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OK, you have dismissed Psalms 91 where the Lord says He that dwells in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty....I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in Him will I trust....because he hath set his love upon Me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he has known My Name....he shall call upon Me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honor him....with long life will I satisfy him, and show him my salvation (deliverance).

Job 14 does not supersede and is not more true than what God promised in Psalms 91... God cannot lie so it's not possible for the Lord to oppose Himself by making one promise and them making another promise that opposes it.

Job 14 is simply making the statement that God knows in advance when man (each person as well as all men) will die.

This is in agreement with Hebrews 9:27 which states it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment... God never said He will decide when each man dies. If He does that, He is not allowing man to reap what he sows.

The exception of course is when men get exceedingly evil God can and sometimes does whack 'em to protect others.

Each person thru their beliefs and actions (sowing) determines whether they will have a long life or a short life (reaping)

Here's another promise to be able to live a long life...

Ephesians 6:1-3
Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Honor thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)
That it may be well with thee, and thou may live long on the earth.

And, Jesus... teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom which is what Christians are supposed to be living under (some don't cause they've been taught religion instead of God's Word) said this:

Luke 10:19
I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Job 14 does not conflict with Psalms 91, Ephesians 6:1-3, or Luke 10:19

But hey, if you want to apply having a short life unto yourself... you certainly can if that's what you would like to do.
Your missing the point of JOB and my original statement.....GOD has predetermined the amount of time you will get under the sun....END of STORY
 
Dec 3, 2016
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Your missing the point of JOB and my original statement.....GOD has predetermined the amount of time you will get under the sun....END of STORY
OK, it's settled... you are claiming Psalms 91 is a lie.

I'm not a big fan of believing God is a liar... but, I do understand that some people believe that.

That's not going to end well... for you. :(
 
Feb 24, 2015
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I doubt very seriously that in the last 24 hours everything you've done was done with absolute, 100% perfection.

Even mistakes and forgetting stuff is falling short of God's absolute perfection so none of us can measure up to that.

That's why the Lord said this thru Paul:

Romans 8:3-6
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

God desires to treat us as though we are perfect which is fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

We should walk upright before the Lord with sincerity forsaking our sin and the carnal ways of this world... and the cool thing about it is... He desires to live in us to empower us to walk in the Spirit.

Unfortunately, we are still free moral agents who have the ability to turn away and walk after our own fleshly desires... otherwise God would not have put warnings in His Word concerning the consequences of walking after the flesh and the ways of this sinful, dark world in which we live.
"Even mistakes and forgetting stuff is falling short of God's absolute perfection"

This is missing the point. You have just gone from here are a set of indicators that show
you are unloving and in sin to every action has a benchmark of failure which is unknown, but
there is a failure or success point to everything even getting out of bed in the morning.
This is simply not true. Using this morality everyone is guilty of everything because everything
in life is linked so guilt is also linked.

At what point does ones personal involvement or lack of it imply guilt?
When does knowledge of something mean you equally knew so should have acted?

God does define this. He has set a limit on it. And unfortunately all you have defined is
infinite guilt and condemnation that is simply a hyper legalist guilt trip.

I used to spend my time worrying about whether I would remember everything. Now I do not
and I trust the Lord will work it through, and I can trust Him. Harm is the key to sin, blatant
damage done to another through chosen will and action. You cannot accidently sin.

And sin is always the product of a failure to care and love. Sin will not exist if we love.
We need to be aware of sin, because it indicates we have failed catastrophically in some area
of our lives, but it is loving and caring that is our primary focus.

So perfection in Gods terms is not your "done with absolute, 100% perfection."
I could propose lots of alternatives to everything, and no one could say which is
100% perfection, because you could probably find fault some way. It is why the law
does not use this language. God is about reasonable achievable loving behaviour.

It is also why sin is obvious and so clearly not loving behaviour.
 
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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Feb 24, 2015
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There is a simple point I am making here.

If the Lord declares something Holy who are we to call it impure.
What I hear is people setting their standard of perfection and security.

Now we walk under grace, under the Lord love and direction.
The difference between sin and not sin is very clear and specific. There are
not grey areas. The law makes it very plain. As soon as things become grey
it is not sinful. But something not being "sinful" does not make it right or the
best or loving.

This is why liking people or not liking them is personal preferences. But learning
that ones likes and dislikes are based on emotional interaction and often form
the basis of sinful behaviour, means it is best to go beyond the idea of liking
people to actually seeing people as they are and knowing how to walk in their
shoes.

So when you begin to go beyond the binary options, good, bad, to how do you
express love and appreciate others, then you begin to see Jesus.
Jesus will never be what we expect, He will always be other. But we need to
learn how we love and know how to be in Christs love.

It is why many probably would be quite rude and difficult if they met the Lord,
because the things they see and react to are not appropriate.

The reaction of the world to Christ is not going to be, oh He is a blazing light,
but total confusion.