A Thread For Preterists: Show some historical proof!

[trofimus]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_eclipses_in_the_1st_century

During the period 1 to 100 there were 248 solar eclipses of which 90 were partial, 75 were annular (one non-central), 58 were total, and 25 were hybrids. The greatest number of eclipses in one year was five, in 18 and 83. Three months, August 7, July 18, and April 97 had two eclipses.

You can do the rest of the work if you are so interested, not just wait with pen and paper

 

[trofimus]

During the 1st century CE[1], Earth experienced 251 lunar eclipses. The following table shows the number of eclipses of each type over this period.

https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEcat5/LE0001-0100.html

Why it is red during this event:
https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/blood-moon.html

 

[MattTooFor]

These "great cosmic signs" are quite common and in my life only I saw them all.

So what are you asking for? Exact date of each in the 1st century? Well, you have two possibilities:

a) ask NASA, ESA, Roskosmos or some other space agency to actually count back 2000 years to get a date for you.

b) find some historical work about this topic which will be quite difficult (its 2000 years old, you know)

You should not hope to get such info on a public forum.

I would argue you need to use common sense in reading the Bible. Quite obviously, in looking at the passages which refer to these signs...there is something ultra-ultra-uber-spectacular about these particular cosmic signs. Come on, people. You say you've seen a "blood moon" before?? Yawn. Yeah...I've seen a few of those myself. A sun eclipse? Some shooting stars?

Preterists are engaging in amazing wishful thinking in trying to equate run-of-the-mill cosmic events with what we see in, for example, Rev.6...in which the world's population is staggered to their knees when they see these particular cosmic events...which are so terrifying and so distinctive and so overpowering...that the whole world instantly and intuitively realizes the wrath of God is upon them. They scramble for the rocks and the caves.

But thanks for referring me to NASA.com where I can look up all the "moon eclipse" schedules, LOL.

But I do appreciate at least an effort at serious conversation. Thanks.

 

[valiant]

I would argue you need to use common sense in reading the Bible. Quite obviously, in looking at the passages which refer to these signs...there is something ultra-ultra-uber-spectacular about these particular cosmic signs. Come on, people. You say you've seen a "blood moon" before?? Yawn. Yeah...I've seen a few of those myself. A sun eclipse? Some shooting stars?

Preterists are engaging in amazing wishful thinking in trying to equate run-of-the-mill cosmic events with what we see in, for example, Rev.6...in which the world's population is staggered to their knees when they see these particular cosmic events...which are so terrifying and so distinctive and so overpowering...that the whole world instantly and intuitively realizes the wrath of God is upon them. They scramble for the rocks and the caves.

But thanks for referring me to NASA.com where I can look up all the "moon eclipse" schedules, LOL.

But I do appreciate at least an effort at serious conversation. Thanks.

so you consider the darkness at Christ's crucifixion and subsequent blood moon a run of the mill cosmic event? I consider it one of the greatest signs that ever was and of great significance (as Peter saw).

as for rev 6. The sixth seal portrays the second coming of Christ cf Is 2. Pretty special to me too. No wonder there were 'run of the mill cosmic events.'

 

[trofimus]

I would argue you need to use common sense in reading the Bible. Quite obviously, in looking at the passages which refer to these signs...there is something ultra-ultra-uber-spectacular about these particular cosmic signs. Come on, people. You say you've seen a "blood moon" before?? Yawn. Yeah...I've seen a few of those myself. A sun eclipse? Some shooting stars?

Preterists are engaging in amazing wishful thinking in trying to equate run-of-the-mill cosmic events with what we see in, for example, Rev.6...in which the world's population is staggered to their knees when they see these particular cosmic events...which are so terrifying and so distinctive and so overpowering...that the whole world instantly and intuitively realizes the wrath of God is upon them. They scramble for the rocks and the caves.

But thanks for referring me to NASA.com where I can look up all the "moon eclipse" schedules, LOL.

But I do appreciate at least an effort at serious conversation. Thanks.

Yes, I have. Several times.

For example this red moon is from 2004: http://en.es-static.us/upl/2012/11/eclipse_total_espanek_10-27-2004-e1358526755212.jpeg
And this sun eclipse is from 2015: 'Breathtaking' solar eclipse witnessed by millions - BBC News

There is nothing ultra ultra uber spectacular about those signs. These sings was important for ancient people so Christ said they will see them first before the end of the age. It was a time measure for the prophecy.

 

[stonesoffire]

I tend to think that History repeats itself for some things.

Aren't preterists into symbols? That they are the same throughout scriptures? I've never really studied The Symbols Speak, but am of that mind even though I disagree with this view.

 

[tanakh]

I tend to think that History repeats itself for some things.

Aren't preterists into symbols? That they are the same throughout scriptures? I've never really studied The Symbols Speak, but am of that mind even though I disagree with this view.

There are books written by Preterists that explain what they believe. I wish people would read some. That goes for the other systems of thought about the last days. Amazon has hundreds of books relating to the subject of the last days. They also have books about how firsr century Jews interpreted the Scriptures including Jesus and the Apostles. It will be found that they had a very different way of seeing things than 21st Century Western Christians.

 

[trofimus]

There are books written by Preterists that explain what they believe. I wish people would read some. That goes for the other systems of thought about the last days. Amazon has hundreds of books relating to the subject of the last days. They also have books about how firsr century Jews interpreted the Scriptures including Jesus and the Apostles. It will be found that they had a very different way of seeing things than 21st Century Western Christians.

Can you recommend some?

 

[stonesoffire]

There are books written by Preterists that explain what they believe. I wish people would read some. That goes for the other systems of thought about the last days. Amazon has hundreds of books relating to the subject of the last days. They also have books about how firsr century Jews interpreted the Scriptures including Jesus and the Apostles. It will be found that they had a very different way of seeing things than 21st Century Western Christians.

I totally agree with you.

I do have one written by Jonathan Welton. Just haven't read it yet.

 

[MattTooFor]

There is nothing ultra ultra uber spectacular about those signs.

What in the world are you talking about -- LOL? In Rev. 6, the entire world's population staggers to their knees in horror and sorrow.

Why don't you quick punch me up a web site that shows where billions of people have in the past reacted in such a way to a moon eclipse or a shooting star.

Yes, I have. Several times.

Did you even read my short little post just now?? I said "yes, and so have I". You saw a shooting star? So what? Thank you for directing me to NASA.com. (???)

What does that have to do with the cosmic events that terrify the whole world and are simultaneously accompanied by other enormous phenomena? Columns of smoke, the sky splitting like a scroll. Every mountain and every island in the world being removed from it's place. The very planet itself being removed from its place (Is.13:13).

And all of this would have needed to happen at some critical, significant point in history. Presumably around 70 A.D., if I'm understanding you Prets. Where is the historical evidence of this HUGE convergence of unprecedented cosmic, seismic (etc.) events??

You're ignoring the plain indication in the bible...that whatever exactly this event is, it will tower, head, shoulders and ankles over ANY other cosmic event EVER seen in history.

 

[tanakh]

Can you recommend some?

One book about Preterist beliefs that I think is quite good is End Times Bible Prophecy (Its not what they told you ) by Brian Godaws who is an ex Pre Tribber. The book centers around the Olivet discourse but includes the Preterest view of the main popular topics about the last days in general. Its written in a straightforward style and cites verses to support his views. You don't need a College Degree to understand it.

Glorious Kingdom : A handbook of partial Preterist Eschatology bt Stan Newton

Understanding End Times Prophecy by Paul N Benware. This examines the whole subject of Prophecy

Revelation : A Shorter Commentary by G K Beale and David Campbell this is a readable but more Scholarly work

The Midrash Key by Edward Vasicek

The Amazing Doctrines of Paul as Midrash by Edward Vascek

I hope they may be of interest. I got them from Amazon. If you own a kindle they are much cheaper as E Books than Paper ones.

 

[Grace777x70]

This is a guy that was a pre-tribber too - 3rd generation Pentecostal minister who looks at the finished work of Christ eschatology. Some may find it informative. There are a number of videos after this one. Most are short.

[video=youtube;G969MhKN83s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G969MhKN83s[/video]

 

[trofimus]

What in the world are you talking about -- LOL? In Rev. 6, the entire world's population staggers to their knees in horror and sorrow.

Why don't you quick punch me up a web site that shows where billions of people have in the past reacted in such a way to a moon eclipse or a shooting star.

Did you even read my short little post just now?? I said "yes, and so have I". You saw a shooting star? So what? Thank you for directing me to NASA.com. (???)

What does that have to do with the cosmic events that terrify the whole world and are simultaneously accompanied by other enormous phenomena? Columns of smoke, the sky splitting like a scroll. Every mountain and every island in the world being removed from it's place. The very planet itself being removed from its place (Is.13:13).

And all of this would have needed to happen at some critical, significant point in history. Presumably around 70 A.D., if I'm understanding you Prets. Where is the historical evidence of this HUGE convergence of unprecedented cosmic, seismic (etc.) events??

You're ignoring the plain indication in the bible...that whatever exactly this event is, it will tower, head, shoulders and ankles over ANY other cosmic event EVER seen in history.

I thought your "so have I" was an irony.

To verses - I think you mix too much of different places from the Bible. Isa is not what Jesus said and what Jesus said in Gospels is not what the Revelation is about. Or at least does not have to be.

Christ was talking about eclipse of the sun, red moon, falling stars, earthquakes ... this all happened. Many times.

In your OP, you do not require that "the entire world's population staggers to their knees in horror and sorrow", during such signs, you changed this later, after I responded to your OP.

 

[Depleted]

I would argue you need to use common sense in reading the Bible. Quite obviously, in looking at the passages which refer to these signs...there is something ultra-ultra-uber-spectacular about these particular cosmic signs. Come on, people. You say you've seen a "blood moon" before?? Yawn. Yeah...I've seen a few of those myself. A sun eclipse? Some shooting stars?

Preterists are engaging in amazing wishful thinking in trying to equate run-of-the-mill cosmic events with what we see in, for example, Rev.6...in which the world's population is staggered to their knees when they see these particular cosmic events...which are so terrifying and so distinctive and so overpowering...that the whole world instantly and intuitively realizes the wrath of God is upon them. They scramble for the rocks and the caves.

But thanks for referring me to NASA.com where I can look up all the "moon eclipse" schedules, LOL.

But I do appreciate at least an effort at serious conversation. Thanks.

Common sense as defined by MatttooFAR - stuff I agree with that takes very little effort to read.

 

[trofimus]

BTW, if there is some flat earth guy here, you can watch our planet from ISS live.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzMQza8xZCc

 

[MattTooFor]

They were discussing the end of the age of the Jewish Sacrificial System, and the end of the age of Roman oppression. They were asking Him when He would return to kick some butts, destroy those people, and make them (the disciples) become free men in this world.

If you don't mind, I am moving our discussion about preterism over to this thread. I want to preserve my debate with "PreTrib" futurists and not have to deal with interjections from preterists.

When I want to have a debate between two competing views on futurism and non-futurists keep interrupting with "there is no futurism!"...it's messed up. It's poor form. It amounts to a cheap shot.

Anyway...your above comment makes no sense, as it directly contradicts the Olivet Discourse text:

The disciples asked Jesus "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?". They were interested, not in "the end of the sacrificial system" but rather in Jesus' (the Messiah's) return AND the "end of the age".

I don't know how it is you think you can directly contradict the text. (?)

To discuss the "end of the age" is to discuss "end times". Where is there any counter-argument??

What is it you don't understand about the fact that in the Jewish mind, when the Messiah would appear, it would be the "end of the age"? In the Jewish mind, there are two ages -- the age of man and the eternal endless "age of God". The eternal "age of the Messiah".

Obviously, the disciples were in on the fact that there was going to be a surprising 'twist in the plot' -- their Messiah had indeed arrived BUT they now knew He was going to depart and then return a second time. THUS, they asked Him when He was going to return (for this second time).

Again, I don't even know where you think there's an argument.

 

[MattTooFor]

Common sense as defined by MatttooFAR - stuff I agree with that takes very little effort to read.

Wow -- another personal jab. I don't know how to help you with your personal problems. God bless you anyway.

 

[MattTooFor]

To verses - I think you mix too much of different places from the Bible. Isa is not what Jesus said and what Jesus said in Gospels is not what the Revelation is about. Or at least does not have to be.

The scriptures I reference are mentioning the "day of the Lord" and describing it. The "day of the Lord" is referred to in a number of OT and NT passages. Those were the only ones I point to.

Isaiah and Joel and Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 are all describing these HUGE cosmic and seismic events and are all mentioning the "day of the Lord"...except for Matthew 24 which is emphasizing the removal of God's people just moments AFTER the appearance of the events.

Christ was talking about eclipse of the sun, red moon, falling stars, earthquakes ... this all happened. Many times

But again...you're dodging the plain fact that there is clearly something utterly unprecedented going on. The entire world staggers to its knees upon the appearance of theses signs AND the numerous OTHER events -- an unprecedented earthquake, bizarre "columns of smoke"...which, again, somehow strike terror in the world's population.

I've seen "columns of smoke" and eclipses and didn't feel any 'terror'. Obviously something far beyond a garden variety eclipse is going on. Come on, trofimus - put on your thinking cap!

 

[MattTooFor]

I would advise you to read up on what Preterists actually believe from a book written by one. A good one for those inquiring is End Times Bible Prophecy (Its not what they told you) by Brian Gosawa who was brought up as a Pre Tribulationist. You may not agree with him but at least you will have some correct basic knowledge of what Preterists believe.

Well, I know what they believe. I was just looking for at least some tidbits of historical evidence from any of the preterists here on this discussion board.

The problem is...there apparently isn't any historical proof. Have you seen anything even remotely resembling historical proof? These preterists keep claiming all the prophecies about the great cosmic signs have already been fulfilled. Where? When?

I tried to get a glimpse of any arguments this Gosawa guy might have. Couldn't find much. I have never paid any attention to preterism so it's a fairly unfamiliar subject to me. But there seems to be quite a community of them at this discussion board. The few glimpses I've have gotten of their arguments...are a disaster.

 

[tanakh]

Well, I know what they believe. I was just looking for at least some tidbits of historical evidence from any of the preterists here on this discussion board.

The problem is...there apparently isn't any historical proof. Have you seen anything even remotely resembling historical proof? These preterists keep claiming all the prophecies about the great cosmic signs have already been fulfilled. Where? When?

I tried to get a glimpse of any arguments this Gosawa guy might have. Couldn't find much. I have never paid any attention to preterism so it's a fairly unfamiliar subject to me. But there seems to be quite a community of them at this discussion board. The few glimpses I've have gotten of their arguments...are a disaster.

This historical proof you keep on about. What proof exactly are you looking for? If your looking for books on Preterism
your average Christian book shop wont stock any because most of them cater for Pre Tribbers. They probably would order it for you. I suggested Amazon that.s where I get my books from including Gosawa's. Another book I suggest is the Jewish War by Josephus who was an eye witness to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70. Most of what is known about it comes from his account. I have listed other books in another reply on this thread.