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M
BUMP!
It is interesting to watch these discussions go hither, thither and yon. PreTribbers in particular do NOT want to deal with the simplicity of the OP's argument...one of the absolute clinching arguments which shuts down PreTrib:
PreTrib is forced to concede it views Peter, James and John as believers in false doctrine. THUS, PreTrib is obviously invalidated.
What did Peter, James and John believe? Well...they believed what Jesus told them.
What did Jesus tell them? In answer to their question about what to look for in the end times, Jesus told them to look for the Abomination of Desolation, followed by the Great Tribulation, followed by the great "Gathering". He did NOT tell them to look for a pre-70th Week "rapture" event.
Peter, James and John went out from the Olivet Discourse believing what Jesus told them...which is that they were to live with an expectation of the Abomination of Desolation.
THUS...Peter, James and John MUST be viewed as holding to false doctrine, according to PreTrib. And THAT is an absurdity.
Clearly then...PreTrib is invalidated.
It is interesting to watch these discussions go hither, thither and yon. PreTribbers in particular do NOT want to deal with the simplicity of the OP's argument...one of the absolute clinching arguments which shuts down PreTrib:
PreTrib is forced to concede it views Peter, James and John as believers in false doctrine. THUS, PreTrib is obviously invalidated.
What did Peter, James and John believe? Well...they believed what Jesus told them.
What did Jesus tell them? In answer to their question about what to look for in the end times, Jesus told them to look for the Abomination of Desolation, followed by the Great Tribulation, followed by the great "Gathering". He did NOT tell them to look for a pre-70th Week "rapture" event.
Peter, James and John went out from the Olivet Discourse believing what Jesus told them...which is that they were to live with an expectation of the Abomination of Desolation.
THUS...Peter, James and John MUST be viewed as holding to false doctrine, according to PreTrib. And THAT is an absurdity.
Clearly then...PreTrib is invalidated.
P
There are basically two components with that context and the AC.
one is that you have no point in saying the AC must be revealed before the rapture THEREFORE pretrib is false.
That dog won't hunt. I also can go with that concept. IOW,the ac is "revealed", two days later Jesus gathers his bride. (that is still a pretrib rapture).....so,as usual more blanks being fired.
Two,is that that prophecy was partially fulfilled when Jerusalem was burned in 70 ad.
You post tribe ignore the overlaps galore.
one is that you have no point in saying the AC must be revealed before the rapture THEREFORE pretrib is false.
That dog won't hunt. I also can go with that concept. IOW,the ac is "revealed", two days later Jesus gathers his bride. (that is still a pretrib rapture).....so,as usual more blanks being fired.
Two,is that that prophecy was partially fulfilled when Jerusalem was burned in 70 ad.
You post tribe ignore the overlaps galore.
P
There are basically two components with that context and the AC.
one is that you have no point in saying the AC must be revealed before the rapture THEREFORE pretrib is false.
That dog won't hunt. I also can go with that concept. IOW,the ac is "revealed", two days later Jesus gathers his bride. (that is still a pretrib rapture).....so,as usual more blanks being fired.
Two,is that that prophecy was partially fulfilled when Jerusalem was burned in 70 ad.
You post tribe ignore the overlaps galore.
one is that you have no point in saying the AC must be revealed before the rapture THEREFORE pretrib is false.
That dog won't hunt. I also can go with that concept. IOW,the ac is "revealed", two days later Jesus gathers his bride. (that is still a pretrib rapture).....so,as usual more blanks being fired.
Two,is that that prophecy was partially fulfilled when Jerusalem was burned in 70 ad.
You post tribe ignore the overlaps galore.
M
Your comments so often verge on incoherent. OR...they have no connection to what I have discussed in my OP. Your above comment is a case in point:
Simply put, Peter, James and John went out from the Olivet Discourse having been told to look out for the Abomination, followed by Great Tribulation, followed by the Gathering.
THAT is what Peter, James and John believed. They believed what Jesus told them.
THEREFORE, PreTribbers view Peter, James and John as believers in false doctrine.
THEREFORE, PreTrib is an absurdity.
Simply put, Peter, James and John went out from the Olivet Discourse having been told to look out for the Abomination, followed by Great Tribulation, followed by the Gathering.
THAT is what Peter, James and John believed. They believed what Jesus told them.
THEREFORE, PreTribbers view Peter, James and John as believers in false doctrine.
THEREFORE, PreTrib is an absurdity.
M
WHAT IS ADDITIONALLY ABSURD...is that PreTrib is forced to concede it views Jesus as having taught false doctrine.
If Peter, James and John went out from the Olivet Discourse believing in false doctrine and undertook their earthly ministry in which they were presumably passing along these false doctrines...and teaching false doctrines...
...PreTrib is therefore forced to concede it views Jesus as the source of these false doctrines.
Therefore, PreTrib is an absolute and utterly invalidated doctrine.
If Peter, James and John went out from the Olivet Discourse believing in false doctrine and undertook their earthly ministry in which they were presumably passing along these false doctrines...and teaching false doctrines...
...PreTrib is therefore forced to concede it views Jesus as the source of these false doctrines.
Therefore, PreTrib is an absolute and utterly invalidated doctrine.
WELLLLlllllll.MattTooFor your partially right,,, abomination of Desolation is the Start of the Great Tribulation (last 3 1/2 years) of Daniels 70th week. Yes, this is also followed by the gathering of all those that have lived through Daniel's 70th week. This gathering as you say is composed of believers and non-believers and will populated the earth during the 1000 years reign of Jesus Christ.
Hey Matt,,,you got it right for once wellllllll....at least partially right for once..
M
Actually, I think I got it 100% right...since all I'm really doing is quoting Scripture verbatim:
Jesus taught Peter, James and John to look for...NOT a mythical pre-70th Week "rapture" event...but rather He told them the first thing to look for was the Abomination of Desolation, followed by the Great Tribulation, followed by the Gathering.
Therefore, PreTrib is forced to concede...that it views the original and founding leaders of the Christian movement (Peter, James and John, etc.) as believing in false doctrine.
And again (and again and again) you're dodging the central and critical aspect of my OP, which is...that Peter, James and John went out from the Olivet Discourse believing in, what PreTrib considers to be...false doctrine.
That, of course is an absurdity. And therefore is PreTrib itself ALSO an absurdity.
Let's see if you guys can go for a record fiftieth time of dodging this simple and central issue.
Jesus told Peter, James and John the first thing they should look for is the Abomination, followed by Great Trib, followed by the Gathering.
Therefore, PreTrib is ALSO forced to concede it views Jesus as teaching false doctrine. An absolutely astounding absurdity.
Jesus taught Peter, James and John to look for...NOT a mythical pre-70th Week "rapture" event...but rather He told them the first thing to look for was the Abomination of Desolation, followed by the Great Tribulation, followed by the Gathering.
Therefore, PreTrib is forced to concede...that it views the original and founding leaders of the Christian movement (Peter, James and John, etc.) as believing in false doctrine.
And again (and again and again) you're dodging the central and critical aspect of my OP, which is...that Peter, James and John went out from the Olivet Discourse believing in, what PreTrib considers to be...false doctrine.
That, of course is an absurdity. And therefore is PreTrib itself ALSO an absurdity.
Let's see if you guys can go for a record fiftieth time of dodging this simple and central issue.
Jesus told Peter, James and John the first thing they should look for is the Abomination, followed by Great Trib, followed by the Gathering.
Therefore, PreTrib is ALSO forced to concede it views Jesus as teaching false doctrine. An absolutely astounding absurdity.
And what gathering would that be that takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, when he sends his angels out in Matt.24:32? As I have pointed out to you before MattTooFor, when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, when he sends out his angels, this is not the gathering of the church, but of the great tribulation saints who will have made it through alive until Christ returns. The angels will be gathering those living in their mortal bodies, the wheat. At the resurrection, angels do not gather the church. We are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. You continue to confuse the two events which are two separate events. Also, by having the church being gathered there in Matt.24:32, you will have put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer.
Your on-going error is that you don't include all of the facts regarding end-time events, just the ones that you want, ignoring the others.
Your on-going error is that you don't include all of the facts regarding end-time events, just the ones that you want, ignoring the others.
Nothing to see here for those who think Rev either happened or is an allegory:
From San Francisco Enquirer
STOCKHOLM (AP) — The syringe slides in between the thumb and index finger. Then, with a click, a microchip is injected in the employee's hand. Another "cyborg" is created.
What could pass for a dystopian vision of the workplace is almost routine at the Swedish startup hub Epicenter. The company offers to implant its workers and startup members with microchips the size of grains of rice that function as swipe cards: to open doors, operate printers, or buy smoothies with a wave of the hand.
The injections have become so popular that workers at Epicenter hold parties for those willing to get implanted.
"The biggest benefit I think is convenience," said Patrick Mesterton, co-founder and CEO of Epicenter. As a demonstration, he unlocks a door by merely waving near it. "It basically replaces a lot of things you have, other communication devices, whether it be credit cards or keys."
The technology in itself is not new. Such chips are used as virtual collar plates for pets. Companies use them to track deliveries. It's just never been used to tag employees on a broad scale before. Epicenter and a handful of other companies are the first to make chip implants broadly available"Of course, putting things into your body is quite a big step to do and it was even for me at first," said Mesterton, remembering how he initially had had doubts.And as with most new technologies, it raises security and privacy issues. While biologically safe, the data generated by the chips can show how often an employee comes to work or what they buy. Unlike company swipe cards or smartphones, which can generate the same data, a person cannot easily separate themselves from the chip.
"But then on the other hand, I mean, people have been implanting things into their body, like pacemakers and stuff to control your heart," he said. "That's a way, way more serious thing than having a small chip that can actually communicate with devices."
From San Francisco Enquirer
STOCKHOLM (AP) — The syringe slides in between the thumb and index finger. Then, with a click, a microchip is injected in the employee's hand. Another "cyborg" is created.
What could pass for a dystopian vision of the workplace is almost routine at the Swedish startup hub Epicenter. The company offers to implant its workers and startup members with microchips the size of grains of rice that function as swipe cards: to open doors, operate printers, or buy smoothies with a wave of the hand.
The injections have become so popular that workers at Epicenter hold parties for those willing to get implanted.
"The biggest benefit I think is convenience," said Patrick Mesterton, co-founder and CEO of Epicenter. As a demonstration, he unlocks a door by merely waving near it. "It basically replaces a lot of things you have, other communication devices, whether it be credit cards or keys."
The technology in itself is not new. Such chips are used as virtual collar plates for pets. Companies use them to track deliveries. It's just never been used to tag employees on a broad scale before. Epicenter and a handful of other companies are the first to make chip implants broadly available"Of course, putting things into your body is quite a big step to do and it was even for me at first," said Mesterton, remembering how he initially had had doubts.And as with most new technologies, it raises security and privacy issues. While biologically safe, the data generated by the chips can show how often an employee comes to work or what they buy. Unlike company swipe cards or smartphones, which can generate the same data, a person cannot easily separate themselves from the chip.
"But then on the other hand, I mean, people have been implanting things into their body, like pacemakers and stuff to control your heart," he said. "That's a way, way more serious thing than having a small chip that can actually communicate with devices."
Epicenter, which is home to more than 100 companies and some 2,000 workers, began implanting workers in January 2015. Now, about 150 workers have them. A company based in Belgium also offers its employees such implants, and there are isolated cases around the world where tech enthusiasts have tried this out in recent years.
M
So now for the fiftieth time (yes, it's a new record, ladies and gentlemen) you PreTribbers have dodged the simple and central point I have been making:
Peter, James and John went out from their hearing of the Olivet Discourse, believing in what PreTrib views as false doctrine:
Jesus told them the first thing to look for was...not a mythical pre-70th Week event...but rather the Abomination of Desolation (and so on).
Therefore, since Peter, James and John obviously believed what Jesus had told them...they therefore believed false doctrine...so PreTrib would have to concede.
Therefore, PreTrib is obviously invalidated.
PreTrib also inadvertently consigns the very Lord Jesus Himself to being a teacher of false doctrine. When He was asked by Peter, James and John what they should look out for...He told them the first specific event they should look for was the Abomination of Desolation.
Therefore, obviously, did the disciples go out from the Olivet Discourse believing they should look for the Abomination of Desolation...which they obviously couldn't do if there were such a thing as a pre-70th Week "rapture" event.
THEREFORE is PreTrib forced to concede the Lord Jesus Himself is teaching false doctrine. Therefore again is PreTrib a profoundly and utterly absurd false doctrine.
Peter, James and John went out from their hearing of the Olivet Discourse, believing in what PreTrib views as false doctrine:
Jesus told them the first thing to look for was...not a mythical pre-70th Week event...but rather the Abomination of Desolation (and so on).
Therefore, since Peter, James and John obviously believed what Jesus had told them...they therefore believed false doctrine...so PreTrib would have to concede.
Therefore, PreTrib is obviously invalidated.
PreTrib also inadvertently consigns the very Lord Jesus Himself to being a teacher of false doctrine. When He was asked by Peter, James and John what they should look out for...He told them the first specific event they should look for was the Abomination of Desolation.
Therefore, obviously, did the disciples go out from the Olivet Discourse believing they should look for the Abomination of Desolation...which they obviously couldn't do if there were such a thing as a pre-70th Week "rapture" event.
THEREFORE is PreTrib forced to concede the Lord Jesus Himself is teaching false doctrine. Therefore again is PreTrib a profoundly and utterly absurd false doctrine.
I have a question, does Paul believe false doctrine? Because it seems like he teaches a pre-trib gathering of the saints. It's been so long ago that I even concerned myself with this I can't remember how it worked.
For me it's hard to say what Peter, John and James believed in when it comes to the gathering together of the saints. Can you post the verse for your belief, so I can understand why you are so animated about this.
For me it's hard to say what Peter, John and James believed in when it comes to the gathering together of the saints. Can you post the verse for your belief, so I can understand why you are so animated about this.
Matt.... It seems no one can help or change your mind.....so what I am writing, I am writing to others that might be reading this post.
You conveniently keep forgetting that John was also the author of Revelation. Why did he write that too.......It also is very apparent that you do not believe that words of the author(s) are the inspired words of Holy Spirit but rather words of the authors themselves. So I would like to hear why YOU FEEL John wrote Revelation.
In Rev chapter 4, in the very first sentence, John says, "AFTER THIS". He had just got through writing the 7 letters to the seven Churches on Earth... Then he finds himself looking at a open door to heaven. He hears a voice beckoning him (John) to come up to (into) Heaven. "...........Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." rev 4:1
Notice the Hereafter...... This after Johns lifetime because Rev. was written around 94AD according to many scholars.. Now you being a scholar of sorts may disagree with that but the majority of scholars agree this is so.
John tells us that immediately, HE was in the SPIRIT.(not Body) and continues to tells us what he saw. He saw the Throne of GOD with Him setting in it. My guess is that you will say this is bogus but if that is the case how can we trust anything John says including in the Book of John you so freely use to teach against the Rapture and the coming Tribulations. .
John then sees in Rev 4:4-5, 24 thrones and on those thrones he also sees 24 Elders (representing the members of the Church) clothed in "WHITE RAIMENT" and had on their heads "CROWNS of GOLD".
He then sees coming out of the thrones, Lightnings, thunderings and VOICEs. He also sees (7) lamp stands (representing the 7 Churches) around the thrones and calls these the "SPIRITS OF GOD".
The Seven Lamp Stands (Seven Golden Candlesticks) we find in rev 4:5, represent the seven churches. In Rev 1:12-13, Jesus walks in the midst of them.
Here before anything happens, The Churches are in Heaven. At this point REV 4:3, the CHURCHES ARE IN HEAVEN!
Now, back in the 4th paragraph I wrote that Revelation was written (published 94AD)....Welll after 70AD... So when John tells us in Rev 4:1.."After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter
,,,SOOOOooooooMy question to MATT..Are these things in above paragraph what John really saw and are the Words he wrote down, HIS words or GOD's WORDs.
Now Matt...If you will be so kind as to show us all,,the places in the last 4000 years of History where the events (as described in Revelation) have already happened (exactly as they are written).
If you cannot and you decide the visions of John in Revelation and the Words John used thereof are NOT FROM GOD,,, then You my friend are a teaching a false religion, no less than that of Joel Osteen.
You conveniently keep forgetting that John was also the author of Revelation. Why did he write that too.......It also is very apparent that you do not believe that words of the author(s) are the inspired words of Holy Spirit but rather words of the authors themselves. So I would like to hear why YOU FEEL John wrote Revelation.
In Rev chapter 4, in the very first sentence, John says, "AFTER THIS". He had just got through writing the 7 letters to the seven Churches on Earth... Then he finds himself looking at a open door to heaven. He hears a voice beckoning him (John) to come up to (into) Heaven. "...........Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." rev 4:1
Notice the Hereafter...... This after Johns lifetime because Rev. was written around 94AD according to many scholars.. Now you being a scholar of sorts may disagree with that but the majority of scholars agree this is so.
John tells us that immediately, HE was in the SPIRIT.(not Body) and continues to tells us what he saw. He saw the Throne of GOD with Him setting in it. My guess is that you will say this is bogus but if that is the case how can we trust anything John says including in the Book of John you so freely use to teach against the Rapture and the coming Tribulations. .
John then sees in Rev 4:4-5, 24 thrones and on those thrones he also sees 24 Elders (representing the members of the Church) clothed in "WHITE RAIMENT" and had on their heads "CROWNS of GOLD".
He then sees coming out of the thrones, Lightnings, thunderings and VOICEs. He also sees (7) lamp stands (representing the 7 Churches) around the thrones and calls these the "SPIRITS OF GOD".
The Seven Lamp Stands (Seven Golden Candlesticks) we find in rev 4:5, represent the seven churches. In Rev 1:12-13, Jesus walks in the midst of them.
Here before anything happens, The Churches are in Heaven. At this point REV 4:3, the CHURCHES ARE IN HEAVEN!
Now, back in the 4th paragraph I wrote that Revelation was written (published 94AD)....Welll after 70AD... So when John tells us in Rev 4:1.."After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter
,,,SOOOOooooooMy question to MATT..Are these things in above paragraph what John really saw and are the Words he wrote down, HIS words or GOD's WORDs.
Now Matt...If you will be so kind as to show us all,,the places in the last 4000 years of History where the events (as described in Revelation) have already happened (exactly as they are written).
If you cannot and you decide the visions of John in Revelation and the Words John used thereof are NOT FROM GOD,,, then You my friend are a teaching a false religion, no less than that of Joel Osteen.