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Re: Polygamy -- continuation of older thread.
Another bogus assumption! How amazing! Those snide comments have been there throughout my 15 years of marriage. I could have walked away from her a long time ago, and if I were not following the teachings of Christ on this matter, I would have. Polygamy is a revelation that came to me rather recently, just last year in fact. My honesty with her about this, has been useful to quell some, not all, of the snide remarks.
I gotta run, I'll be back. I am not abandoning the conversation.
Another bogus assumption! How amazing! Those snide comments have been there throughout my 15 years of marriage. I could have walked away from her a long time ago, and if I were not following the teachings of Christ on this matter, I would have. Polygamy is a revelation that came to me rather recently, just last year in fact. My honesty with her about this, has been useful to quell some, not all, of the snide remarks.
I gotta run, I'll be back. I am not abandoning the conversation.
Re: Polygamy -- continuation of older thread.
Just looking for a way to get another woman. That's what I hear when you edge out: "provided we get a second opinion from someone who is neutral on the topic."
Your wife - not you - ought to be setting the conditions. Unbelievable.
"Honey, I want another woman in this marriage. I'll get counseling on the matter. But only if...."
It's a wonder she's still with you. It really sounds arrogant. Uncaring.
You must have been hoping your wife would go along with a third wheel. What man tells such a thing to his wife? Tell God about it. Pray and read the bible. Let God help you.
This is unbelievable.
Crush your wife's spirit because you have a desire to be with another woman. You were hoping she would say "Go ahead, it will spice things up."
And now you're working your theory out in this thread (Well, you ain't got much material to back you.) You're trying to prepare for more debate with your wife. You are trying to fine tune your position.
Your wife doesn't want to share you with another woman. That ought to plenty enough for you. And that's true regardless of your erroneous view on marriage.
Again, YOUR WIFE DOESN'T WANT YOU TO BE WITH ANOTHER WOMAN.
So apply "Husbands Love your wives even as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it."
No counselor is going to be able to give you better counseling than: LOVE YOUR WIFE.
Save your money. Save your time. Love God, Love your wife.
Just looking for a way to get another woman. That's what I hear when you edge out: "provided we get a second opinion from someone who is neutral on the topic."
Your wife - not you - ought to be setting the conditions. Unbelievable.
"Honey, I want another woman in this marriage. I'll get counseling on the matter. But only if...."
It's a wonder she's still with you. It really sounds arrogant. Uncaring.
You must have been hoping your wife would go along with a third wheel. What man tells such a thing to his wife? Tell God about it. Pray and read the bible. Let God help you.
This is unbelievable.
Crush your wife's spirit because you have a desire to be with another woman. You were hoping she would say "Go ahead, it will spice things up."
And now you're working your theory out in this thread (Well, you ain't got much material to back you.) You're trying to prepare for more debate with your wife. You are trying to fine tune your position.
Your wife doesn't want to share you with another woman. That ought to plenty enough for you. And that's true regardless of your erroneous view on marriage.
Again, YOUR WIFE DOESN'T WANT YOU TO BE WITH ANOTHER WOMAN.
So apply "Husbands Love your wives even as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it."
No counselor is going to be able to give you better counseling than: LOVE YOUR WIFE.
Save your money. Save your time. Love God, Love your wife.
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Re: Polygamy -- continuation of older thread.
Quote "My work put a temporary stop to the party. Don't flatter yourself."
You weren't commenting. I figured you'd comment after what I said,I was right. And I was right because you are here for an argument. Either you'd talk about the real issue or start a new argument.I was hoping for the for the former considering what you revealed.
Quote "I have already told my wife I would be willing to go for counseling, even with someone predisposed against polygamy, provided we get a second opinion from someone who is neutral on the topic."
You need to stick with the marriage you're in. When you get that out of the ditch you can chose which way you go. If you can't handle one marriage how can you add other people? You need to get the issues with your current wife straight. Women tend to think a lot alike,if you cant handle one wife you sure cant handle two.
Quote "You think you can shout me down, by ganging up like a pack of wolves."
This is a discussion forum.The majority in this thread dont happen to agree with you point of view.The mistake people make is coming here,putting their opinion out there and expecting everyone to have the same view they have.If people dont agree the OP gets angry and leaves.This is a discussion forum,not an agreement forum. Have you considered looking for forums where people agree with you POV? You cannot get angry because people dont agree with you.You shared your opinion,most disagree. Like your wife, you cannot force people to agree with you. You need to start being honest with yourself.
Quote "My work put a temporary stop to the party. Don't flatter yourself."
You weren't commenting. I figured you'd comment after what I said,I was right. And I was right because you are here for an argument. Either you'd talk about the real issue or start a new argument.I was hoping for the for the former considering what you revealed.
Quote "I have already told my wife I would be willing to go for counseling, even with someone predisposed against polygamy, provided we get a second opinion from someone who is neutral on the topic."
You need to stick with the marriage you're in. When you get that out of the ditch you can chose which way you go. If you can't handle one marriage how can you add other people? You need to get the issues with your current wife straight. Women tend to think a lot alike,if you cant handle one wife you sure cant handle two.
Quote "You think you can shout me down, by ganging up like a pack of wolves."
This is a discussion forum.The majority in this thread dont happen to agree with you point of view.The mistake people make is coming here,putting their opinion out there and expecting everyone to have the same view they have.If people dont agree the OP gets angry and leaves.This is a discussion forum,not an agreement forum. Have you considered looking for forums where people agree with you POV? You cannot get angry because people dont agree with you.You shared your opinion,most disagree. Like your wife, you cannot force people to agree with you. You need to start being honest with yourself.
Re: Polygamy -- continuation of older thread.
Oh, I am sure you would love it if women would just shut up so you could have your fill of them sexually with no peep from any quarter about how wrong and immoral it is, and explicitly taught against in Scripture. That is not going to happen, and you know Scripture also teaches that there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus. Are you also for treating women as your property instead of as human beings with thoughts and feelings of their own? Perhaps you were born too late, and thank God progress has been made regardless of ingrates like you who seem to think it was better in the good old days simply because men cannot have their wayward way with women all the time.
As to 1 Cor 7:2, this is the first I have seen you put the question to me, though what the question is exactly, I cannot say, since all along you argue vociferously against one wife per husband.
Oh, I am sure you would love it if women would just shut up so you could have your fill of them sexually with no peep from any quarter about how wrong and immoral it is, and explicitly taught against in Scripture. That is not going to happen, and you know Scripture also teaches that there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus. Are you also for treating women as your property instead of as human beings with thoughts and feelings of their own? Perhaps you were born too late, and thank God progress has been made regardless of ingrates like you who seem to think it was better in the good old days simply because men cannot have their wayward way with women all the time.
As to 1 Cor 7:2, this is the first I have seen you put the question to me, though what the question is exactly, I cannot say, since all along you argue vociferously against one wife per husband.
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Re: Polygamy -- continuation of older thread.
I have no desire to "have my way with women. I never asked you to shut up. I expect to run into opinions that run counter to mine. Martin Luther experienced much of the same when he opposed the prevailing opinions of his day. You might be interested in his stance on polygamy.
If polygamy were immoral or there was any Scripture you could point to, that teaches against polygamy, why haven't ou shown it to me, instead of these passages as you say "Implicitly" teach against it. Implicitly? Seriously! That is simply a way of avoiding the fact that you are using Eisegesis to interpret Scripture.
I have already pointed out that a text without a context is a pretext, and you have done the exact same thing here with the passage about no difference between men and women. In no way does that mean that teachings directed to men and women apply to the opposite gender as well! If that were the case, Paul's instruction that women be silent in the church applies to men as well. Please don't misuse Scripture to make it say what you want it to say!
I am not in favor of treating women as my property; never have been; never will be. I am not an ingrate either. I am quite grateful that God has given us freedom, and I thank God for His Word, and for what He has revealed to me with regard to this topic. I do think there were better times, before feminists got there way in the Supreme Court and legalized abortion in all 50 states. I would hope you feel the same way, but I don't know you well enough to have any certainty in this regard.
The two words translated to "own" from the original Greek have different meanings. I pulled this off Greek Bible,
διὰ δὲ τὰς πορνείας ἕκαστος[ τὴν[ἑαυτοῦ γυναῖκα ἐχέτω, καὶ ἑκάστη τὸν ἴδιον ἄνδρα ἐχέτω.
Unfortunately, the link does not take you right to the verse, so you will have to look the verse up yourself for proof. This site allows you to hover over the words, to see the meaning. This verse used by anti-polygamists such as yourself, is ironically proof that God still allows polygamy today. He is the same God, yesterday, today, and forever.
I have no desire to "have my way with women. I never asked you to shut up. I expect to run into opinions that run counter to mine. Martin Luther experienced much of the same when he opposed the prevailing opinions of his day. You might be interested in his stance on polygamy.
If polygamy were immoral or there was any Scripture you could point to, that teaches against polygamy, why haven't ou shown it to me, instead of these passages as you say "Implicitly" teach against it. Implicitly? Seriously! That is simply a way of avoiding the fact that you are using Eisegesis to interpret Scripture.
I have already pointed out that a text without a context is a pretext, and you have done the exact same thing here with the passage about no difference between men and women. In no way does that mean that teachings directed to men and women apply to the opposite gender as well! If that were the case, Paul's instruction that women be silent in the church applies to men as well. Please don't misuse Scripture to make it say what you want it to say!
I am not in favor of treating women as my property; never have been; never will be. I am not an ingrate either. I am quite grateful that God has given us freedom, and I thank God for His Word, and for what He has revealed to me with regard to this topic. I do think there were better times, before feminists got there way in the Supreme Court and legalized abortion in all 50 states. I would hope you feel the same way, but I don't know you well enough to have any certainty in this regard.
The two words translated to "own" from the original Greek have different meanings. I pulled this off Greek Bible,
διὰ δὲ τὰς πορνείας ἕκαστος[ τὴν[ἑαυτοῦ γυναῖκα ἐχέτω, καὶ ἑκάστη τὸν ἴδιον ἄνδρα ἐχέτω.
Unfortunately, the link does not take you right to the verse, so you will have to look the verse up yourself for proof. This site allows you to hover over the words, to see the meaning. This verse used by anti-polygamists such as yourself, is ironically proof that God still allows polygamy today. He is the same God, yesterday, today, and forever.
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K
Re: Polygamy -- continuation of older thread.
I think this subject has been pretty much dragged though the dirt. You know what your issues are and you need to work on them. Polygamy isn't going to help your marriage.If you cant have a happy marriage with one woman you wont with five. Maturity would say go and seek help. I hope you do.
I think this subject has been pretty much dragged though the dirt. You know what your issues are and you need to work on them. Polygamy isn't going to help your marriage.If you cant have a happy marriage with one woman you wont with five. Maturity would say go and seek help. I hope you do.
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Re: Polygamy -- continuation of older thread.
Well now that I am back to attempt to answer all your objections, you want to shut me up. I have been working on my marriage issues. You don't know whether polygamy will help or not. You do not know the future; only God does. I expressed willingness to get counseling, but she declined. So be it. Right now, she is in the processing phase. If it is God's will or not, I seriously doubt you would know. You do not act like one who has the Spirit of Christ in you in the first place.
Well now that I am back to attempt to answer all your objections, you want to shut me up. I have been working on my marriage issues. You don't know whether polygamy will help or not. You do not know the future; only God does. I expressed willingness to get counseling, but she declined. So be it. Right now, she is in the processing phase. If it is God's will or not, I seriously doubt you would know. You do not act like one who has the Spirit of Christ in you in the first place.
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Re: Polygamy -- continuation of older thread.
Hi Dan, Remember me? I proposed what is good for the gander is good for the goose, ie. your wife might want to add a husband. Maybe she'd like a younger model. Anyway, I am glad you posted again. I wanted to ask your opinion about a different scenario. But first, I want to ask you if you agree with this verse: Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it;" Do you accept this verse as something you ought to do?
Hi Dan, Remember me? I proposed what is good for the gander is good for the goose, ie. your wife might want to add a husband. Maybe she'd like a younger model. Anyway, I am glad you posted again. I wanted to ask your opinion about a different scenario. But first, I want to ask you if you agree with this verse: Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it;" Do you accept this verse as something you ought to do?
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Re: Polygamy -- continuation of older thread.
The bottom line is that you triumphed as if you had posted something that somehow ended the debate. What a laugh! Nice try!
Perhaps you were not paying attention when I said I would never abandon my wife. I will have to look at your other responses to see if that is the case. I have handled my marriage with God's help and a lot of skill. A marriage, that if I were not a believer, probably would have lasted a little over a year; not much more. Very few men would have endured what I have endured from my wife. I really don't wish to air out my dirty laundry here, but suffice it to say, I believe this qualifies me to handle a second woman. I doubt you are qualified to know what I can and cannot handle.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but there is only so much time in the day, and I cannot devote all of it to answering the same tired arguments over and over. I have not once gotten angry. I understand you are part of a society that detests the idea of polygamy, and you want to find anything you can latch onto to support your position. There are plenty of Christian sites you can run to and find arguments against polygamy. Perhaps you are unaware of this, but there are also websites out there that have answered just about every objection you have raised.
There really is no need to lecture me about discussion forums. I am actually enjoying taking apart your arguments one at a time, when I have the time to do so. Just don't get so full of yourself that you think you have won the argument, simply because I am unable to respond immediately. "Pride goeth before a fall...."
The bottom line is that you triumphed as if you had posted something that somehow ended the debate. What a laugh! Nice try!
Perhaps you were not paying attention when I said I would never abandon my wife. I will have to look at your other responses to see if that is the case. I have handled my marriage with God's help and a lot of skill. A marriage, that if I were not a believer, probably would have lasted a little over a year; not much more. Very few men would have endured what I have endured from my wife. I really don't wish to air out my dirty laundry here, but suffice it to say, I believe this qualifies me to handle a second woman. I doubt you are qualified to know what I can and cannot handle.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but there is only so much time in the day, and I cannot devote all of it to answering the same tired arguments over and over. I have not once gotten angry. I understand you are part of a society that detests the idea of polygamy, and you want to find anything you can latch onto to support your position. There are plenty of Christian sites you can run to and find arguments against polygamy. Perhaps you are unaware of this, but there are also websites out there that have answered just about every objection you have raised.
There really is no need to lecture me about discussion forums. I am actually enjoying taking apart your arguments one at a time, when I have the time to do so. Just don't get so full of yourself that you think you have won the argument, simply because I am unable to respond immediately. "Pride goeth before a fall...."
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Re: Polygamy -- continuation of older thread.
I think I remember you. How are you doing? I believe I posted a response, which probably got lost in all the other posts on this thread. LOL. If you have been following some of my other responses, you would know that the scenario you describe would work out quite nicely for me. I honestly have no idea how I am going to find a second woman willing to marry me, but the scenario you proposed would resolve all that. OTOH, my children don't deserve to have to choose between their mother and father.
The verse you quoted comes out of the pages of Scripture. I happen to believe the Bible is the Word of God, and that God cannot lie. The short answer to your question then would have to be, "Yes, Absolutely!"
BTW, if you missed my response, the Bible does not agree with your assessment of what is good for the goose/gander, at least the way you applied it, IIRC.
I think I remember you. How are you doing? I believe I posted a response, which probably got lost in all the other posts on this thread. LOL. If you have been following some of my other responses, you would know that the scenario you describe would work out quite nicely for me. I honestly have no idea how I am going to find a second woman willing to marry me, but the scenario you proposed would resolve all that. OTOH, my children don't deserve to have to choose between their mother and father.
The verse you quoted comes out of the pages of Scripture. I happen to believe the Bible is the Word of God, and that God cannot lie. The short answer to your question then would have to be, "Yes, Absolutely!"
BTW, if you missed my response, the Bible does not agree with your assessment of what is good for the goose/gander, at least the way you applied it, IIRC.
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Re: Polygamy -- continuation of older thread.
Not so fast, you don't know the scenario yet. I haven't stated it. I first wanted to know if you accept the verse in Ephesians or not. Since you do, here is the scenario:
Picture It: You and your wives, let's call them thing 1 and thing 2, are out on a date. You three have chosen to see the new Batman movie (who chose, that, I'll give you one guess. Alpha males are not Alpha without reason). Inside the theater, there are only young, healthy men viewing- no women, children, or disabled people.
Suddenly, an insane gunman enters the theater. You are equidistant from thing 1 and thing 2, quick- which thing do you save, seeing as you concur with Ephesians 5:25- you won't save your own skin and get new things. No, you will give your life for your wife, but which?
In this scenario, you can not save both.
Not so fast, you don't know the scenario yet. I haven't stated it. I first wanted to know if you accept the verse in Ephesians or not. Since you do, here is the scenario:
Picture It: You and your wives, let's call them thing 1 and thing 2, are out on a date. You three have chosen to see the new Batman movie (who chose, that, I'll give you one guess. Alpha males are not Alpha without reason). Inside the theater, there are only young, healthy men viewing- no women, children, or disabled people.
Suddenly, an insane gunman enters the theater. You are equidistant from thing 1 and thing 2, quick- which thing do you save, seeing as you concur with Ephesians 5:25- you won't save your own skin and get new things. No, you will give your life for your wife, but which?
In this scenario, you can not save both.
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Re: Polygamy -- continuation of older thread.
Quote "Well now that I am back to attempt to answer all your objections, you want to shut me up."
Ok,so once again this is a discussion forum. Its not a matter of shutting anyone up.You give an opinion,someone else gives an opinion. Thats the way this works. If you cant take disagreement then this is not the place for you.
Quote " I have been working on my marriage issues. You don't know whether polygamy will help or not. "
Can you be honest with yourself for a minute? Do honestly think another relationship will work in the middle of a failing relationship? Thats just common sense.
Quote" Right now, she is in the processing phase. If it is God's will or not, I seriously doubt you would know.
You said you were willing to go to a counselor...that agreed with polygamy. If you think strong arming your wife will work or is Gods will Id say you're very immature. A little disagreement with women here and you fly off into a rage.If you carry on like that with your wife when you dont get your own way Im not surprised your marriage is in trouble. I tried to empathize and you turned and attacked me.I think you have some maturing to do.
Quote " You do not act like one who has the Spirit of Christ in you in the first place."
Really?! Well for your info I spent 20 yrs in ministry.Ive heard it all. Ive talked to pastors,parents,spouses,teens all with all kinds of issues. Ive traveled in all denominations all over the country. You can be as defensive as you want to be. Pushing your wife and your agenda is not of God,and its not the Spirit of Christ. Until you get real your marriage will continue to be unhappy.Best of luck to you.
Quote "Well now that I am back to attempt to answer all your objections, you want to shut me up."
Ok,so once again this is a discussion forum. Its not a matter of shutting anyone up.You give an opinion,someone else gives an opinion. Thats the way this works. If you cant take disagreement then this is not the place for you.
Quote " I have been working on my marriage issues. You don't know whether polygamy will help or not. "
Can you be honest with yourself for a minute? Do honestly think another relationship will work in the middle of a failing relationship? Thats just common sense.
Quote" Right now, she is in the processing phase. If it is God's will or not, I seriously doubt you would know.
You said you were willing to go to a counselor...that agreed with polygamy. If you think strong arming your wife will work or is Gods will Id say you're very immature. A little disagreement with women here and you fly off into a rage.If you carry on like that with your wife when you dont get your own way Im not surprised your marriage is in trouble. I tried to empathize and you turned and attacked me.I think you have some maturing to do.
Quote " You do not act like one who has the Spirit of Christ in you in the first place."
Really?! Well for your info I spent 20 yrs in ministry.Ive heard it all. Ive talked to pastors,parents,spouses,teens all with all kinds of issues. Ive traveled in all denominations all over the country. You can be as defensive as you want to be. Pushing your wife and your agenda is not of God,and its not the Spirit of Christ. Until you get real your marriage will continue to be unhappy.Best of luck to you.
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Re: Polygamy -- continuation of older thread.
Now what do you think that would accomplish? Do you believe the wife is the head of the husband?
It is not a wonder so much, as a testament to what kind of husband I have been to her for 15 years, and a realization on her part of what kind of wife she has been over that same period of time.
I never said that I told my wife to pray about it. Where did you come up with that. Go back and read what I said. Misquoting someone is dishonest.
Crushing my wife's spirit is the last thing I would want to do. The most important thing for me, was to be completely honest with her, and see how it turns out.
It is not MY theory. I wrestled with this topic for a couple of weeks, perhaps even a month, before I was completely convinced where the Bible stands on this topic. Only then did I post something or say something in support of polygamy, not to my wife, but to "safer" individuals such as my father, to get his feedback. I knew that because he had made mistakes in his past, he was in no position to judge me. It took a lot of nerve on my part to have this discussion with my wife, but I am so glad I did. I feel more at liberty to discuss it with others such as yourself, knowing that I can honestly say that I talked it over with her.
Well at least you were paying attention to one thing I said. I could have pulled one over on you, and told you that she is willing to allow another woman to become my wife. I am sure you mistyped that sentence about "plenty for you"
You are in no position know what is plenty for me. If I have an erroneous view of marriage, I would love for you to point it out to me. I really don't want to have an erroneous view of marriage, and I wish you could say the same yourself, but you are so convinced that you are right; without having examined all the evidence.
I have actually discovered something interesting about that passage you might be surprised to learn, from my research on the topic. I don't wish to get into that right now, but notice the word "wives" is used here. That certainly allows for polygyny, don't you think?
I like that! Great advice for anyone struggling with their marriage! I must say that I have come to a deeper appreciation of who God is, and I have a greater love for Him, as a direct result of Him revealing these things to me.
Now what do you think that would accomplish? Do you believe the wife is the head of the husband?
It is not a wonder so much, as a testament to what kind of husband I have been to her for 15 years, and a realization on her part of what kind of wife she has been over that same period of time.
I never said that I told my wife to pray about it. Where did you come up with that. Go back and read what I said. Misquoting someone is dishonest.
Crushing my wife's spirit is the last thing I would want to do. The most important thing for me, was to be completely honest with her, and see how it turns out.
It is not MY theory. I wrestled with this topic for a couple of weeks, perhaps even a month, before I was completely convinced where the Bible stands on this topic. Only then did I post something or say something in support of polygamy, not to my wife, but to "safer" individuals such as my father, to get his feedback. I knew that because he had made mistakes in his past, he was in no position to judge me. It took a lot of nerve on my part to have this discussion with my wife, but I am so glad I did. I feel more at liberty to discuss it with others such as yourself, knowing that I can honestly say that I talked it over with her.
Well at least you were paying attention to one thing I said. I could have pulled one over on you, and told you that she is willing to allow another woman to become my wife. I am sure you mistyped that sentence about "plenty for you"
You are in no position know what is plenty for me. If I have an erroneous view of marriage, I would love for you to point it out to me. I really don't want to have an erroneous view of marriage, and I wish you could say the same yourself, but you are so convinced that you are right; without having examined all the evidence.I have actually discovered something interesting about that passage you might be surprised to learn, from my research on the topic. I don't wish to get into that right now, but notice the word "wives" is used here. That certainly allows for polygyny, don't you think?
I like that! Great advice for anyone struggling with their marriage! I must say that I have come to a deeper appreciation of who God is, and I have a greater love for Him, as a direct result of Him revealing these things to me.