What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?
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Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?
James 4.17 & Romans 14.23, doing anything that Father told you not to do and doing it anyway...
There are no sins of ignorance or sins of omission...that was conjured up by hirelings to make the Gospel more palatable to share to people and also keep them in condemnation and from the truth...There is only SIN you chose to commit...and we all do it.....SIN is choice...nothing more and nothing less and is found to be proven in Scripture from Genesis 3 & 4 to Revelation....James 1.13-16 shows us the SIN cycle perfectly....
Before coming to Jesus I was a SINNER.....After I am saved, I am no longer a SINNER that SINNED but a SAINT, a new creation....now to be very clear, being a saint does not mean I no longer SIN...We all will SIN....however I am not SINNER anymore in the sense of the old man....putting on the new Man means I got my choice back regarding SINNING and SIN....
Enabling/Restraining grace teaches me and gives me the power over SIN in my life...Titus 2.11-15
I am also now a partaker of the divine nature and 2 Peter 1.1-12 is the blue print for me not to fall[which in the Greek means SIN] I will SIN less the more the Holy Spirit, the Word and enabling Grace sanctifies me...
There will be SIN that entangled me in the past life of a SINNER that will not slow me down now...
Our walk with Jesus as been modeled after a marriage between a man and woman....when you have been married for at lest 10 years, you do not intentionally or unintentionally do anything that would hurt your spouse...if you do something to hurt your spouse, then you made a conscious decision to hurt your spouse.....there was no outside force that made you hurt them or some unconscious knowing that made you do it....you purposed in your heart and chose to hurt them....
the same is true with our relationship with Jesus as you spiritually mature you will not ever want to SIN agaisnt him, because it would hurt the relationship....
This knowledge is what sets people free from religion and other satanic mindsets....
This is also why understanding that righteousness is position and not personal performance is so important...that knowledge and relying on the Holy Spirit and empowering grace you will become more consecrated on accident than you ever will be on purpose.
James 4.17 & Romans 14.23, doing anything that Father told you not to do and doing it anyway...
There are no sins of ignorance or sins of omission...that was conjured up by hirelings to make the Gospel more palatable to share to people and also keep them in condemnation and from the truth...There is only SIN you chose to commit...and we all do it.....SIN is choice...nothing more and nothing less and is found to be proven in Scripture from Genesis 3 & 4 to Revelation....James 1.13-16 shows us the SIN cycle perfectly....
Before coming to Jesus I was a SINNER.....After I am saved, I am no longer a SINNER that SINNED but a SAINT, a new creation....now to be very clear, being a saint does not mean I no longer SIN...We all will SIN....however I am not SINNER anymore in the sense of the old man....putting on the new Man means I got my choice back regarding SINNING and SIN....
Enabling/Restraining grace teaches me and gives me the power over SIN in my life...Titus 2.11-15
I am also now a partaker of the divine nature and 2 Peter 1.1-12 is the blue print for me not to fall[which in the Greek means SIN] I will SIN less the more the Holy Spirit, the Word and enabling Grace sanctifies me...
There will be SIN that entangled me in the past life of a SINNER that will not slow me down now...
Our walk with Jesus as been modeled after a marriage between a man and woman....when you have been married for at lest 10 years, you do not intentionally or unintentionally do anything that would hurt your spouse...if you do something to hurt your spouse, then you made a conscious decision to hurt your spouse.....there was no outside force that made you hurt them or some unconscious knowing that made you do it....you purposed in your heart and chose to hurt them....
the same is true with our relationship with Jesus as you spiritually mature you will not ever want to SIN agaisnt him, because it would hurt the relationship....
This knowledge is what sets people free from religion and other satanic mindsets....
This is also why understanding that righteousness is position and not personal performance is so important...that knowledge and relying on the Holy Spirit and empowering grace you will become more consecrated on accident than you ever will be on purpose.
V
Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?
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2 end-time simple proofs against OSAS
The NT says if you do these things you lose eternal life:
1) do not endure in your faith through the tribulation of the antichrist
2) submit to taking the dreaded mark of the beast
And some OSASers have told me that NO true believer will fail either of these tests!
There are millions of believers all over the world ... some don't even know about these dangers.
.
2 end-time simple proofs against OSAS
The NT says if you do these things you lose eternal life:
1) do not endure in your faith through the tribulation of the antichrist
2) submit to taking the dreaded mark of the beast
And some OSASers have told me that NO true believer will fail either of these tests!
There are millions of believers all over the world ... some don't even know about these dangers.
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?
Please explain what you are trying to say to me as if I'm a five year old.
Are you thinking that because I acknowledge that I do sin is a bad things as such?
With regards to sin of commission I agree and disagree it can be intentional or unintentional out of ignorance.
A sin of commission is a sin we take action to commit, whether in thought, word, or deed. A sin of commission can be intentional or unintentional. Foreknowledge is not the issue. If you visit another country in which traffic drives in the left lane, and you drive in the right lane, you are still breaking the law whether you know it or not.
I am not sure I agree with you concerning sins of ommission. I can't see how you feel that it keeps people in condemnation and from the truth. Surely it should cause people to examine all the things they do and don't do.
James 4:17
Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.
Matthew 25:31-45
The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
What about
Luke 10:30-37
Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side.
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”
Jesus used this example to teach that we are to likewise help those in need. By doing so, he clearly communicated that it is sinful to avoid doing good, just as it is sinful to pursue what is evil.
Please explain what you are trying to say to me as if I'm a five year old.
Are you thinking that because I acknowledge that I do sin is a bad things as such?
With regards to sin of commission I agree and disagree it can be intentional or unintentional out of ignorance.
A sin of commission is a sin we take action to commit, whether in thought, word, or deed. A sin of commission can be intentional or unintentional. Foreknowledge is not the issue. If you visit another country in which traffic drives in the left lane, and you drive in the right lane, you are still breaking the law whether you know it or not.
I am not sure I agree with you concerning sins of ommission. I can't see how you feel that it keeps people in condemnation and from the truth. Surely it should cause people to examine all the things they do and don't do.
James 4:17
Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.
Matthew 25:31-45
The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
What about
Luke 10:30-37
Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side.
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”
Jesus used this example to teach that we are to likewise help those in need. By doing so, he clearly communicated that it is sinful to avoid doing good, just as it is sinful to pursue what is evil.
Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?
God gave us every plant baring seed there is and even every med that comes from the plant. even God gave them seeds that could bare meds for mental health patients to lower certain chemicals in there brain that make them go cuckoo or depressed....... enough to want to take there own life..
God gave us every plant baring seed there is and even every med that comes from the plant. even God gave them seeds that could bare meds for mental health patients to lower certain chemicals in there brain that make them go cuckoo or depressed....... enough to want to take there own life..
Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?
I am giving you this at a 6th grade level......
Could you restate this, not sure I follow you...
SIN is a CHOICE, not an action...
We come to understand what not to do based on this scripture and the renewing of our minds to the Word of God...
I knew a Pastor that told his people they were never, ever to have a lot money and doing so was a SIN....This put people in condemnation and is not the truth....One day that same Pastor began his usual rant against having lots of Money....a young man stood up and quoted 1 Tim 6.10 and schooled that old Pastor good....He said Sir, its the love of money that is a sin, not having or having a lot of it....the young man showed the people the verse and all the while the Old Pastor was getting all worked up....later that week the people fired that Pastor and brought in that young man and now the church is a thriving average sized church, impacting their community and people are not in debt and being blessed by God...and doing the work of ministry God called them to do...
The rest of your examples and scriptures make my point...
I am giving you this at a 6th grade level......
Could you restate this, not sure I follow you...
SIN is a CHOICE, not an action...
We come to understand what not to do based on this scripture and the renewing of our minds to the Word of God...
I knew a Pastor that told his people they were never, ever to have a lot money and doing so was a SIN....This put people in condemnation and is not the truth....One day that same Pastor began his usual rant against having lots of Money....a young man stood up and quoted 1 Tim 6.10 and schooled that old Pastor good....He said Sir, its the love of money that is a sin, not having or having a lot of it....the young man showed the people the verse and all the while the Old Pastor was getting all worked up....later that week the people fired that Pastor and brought in that young man and now the church is a thriving average sized church, impacting their community and people are not in debt and being blessed by God...and doing the work of ministry God called them to do...
The rest of your examples and scriptures make my point...
Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?
Been there with a similar pastor(s) And want you say is true and correct.
It's often quoted that "Money is the root of all evil" and in fact it's the love of money that is a sin
What is a choice/choosing? If you choose to do something then you act on that choice, if you choose not to do something then that is also a choice.
Im not sure I can restate my quote "Are you thinking that because I acknowledge that I do sin is such a bad thing as such"
You asked me the question "Do I still sin" to which I said yep I do
I could not see an answer to the question you asked me to which I responded to.
Not sure if as you say that the rest of the scriptures I quoted prove your point.
The scriputers I posted to me were for sins of commission and ommison, but from what you are saying as I understand it sins of ommission/ignorance are a lie
Been there with a similar pastor(s) And want you say is true and correct.
It's often quoted that "Money is the root of all evil" and in fact it's the love of money that is a sin
What is a choice/choosing? If you choose to do something then you act on that choice, if you choose not to do something then that is also a choice.
Im not sure I can restate my quote "Are you thinking that because I acknowledge that I do sin is such a bad thing as such"
You asked me the question "Do I still sin" to which I said yep I do
I could not see an answer to the question you asked me to which I responded to.
Not sure if as you say that the rest of the scriptures I quoted prove your point.
The scriputers I posted to me were for sins of commission and ommison, but from what you are saying as I understand it sins of ommission/ignorance are a lie
D
Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?
Heads up -- #1 and #2 is the same thing put in different language.
And, yeah, pretty much, no true believer will. It isn't our believing that saves us. It's God! Truly! And we don't really persevere as much as God keeps bringing us along -- no strings attached on which End Time philosophy we have either.
Heads up -- #1 and #2 is the same thing put in different language.
And, yeah, pretty much, no true believer will. It isn't our believing that saves us. It's God! Truly! And we don't really persevere as much as God keeps bringing us along -- no strings attached on which End Time philosophy we have either.
Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?
No I do not think because you said you still Sin you are wrong....I still SIN as well...I dislike sinless perfection theology big time, because it is not Biblical....
Choice regarding SIN....
If Father tells me that smoking is a SIN and I do it, then I have sinned. If I never smoke, then I have not committed that SIN against Father... You cannot unintentionally smoke a cigarette....you make a conscious decision to light up and smoke...
If God told me smoking was not a SIN, then that is according to my faith and I am not sinning...
So many people were taught decades ago that a smoker was automatically going to hell and not a saved person...this was because of the Pentecostal Holiness and Legalistic Baptist movements....
I know many smokers who smoke and reach people for the Lord and do not believe that God has told them their smoking is a SIN...I also know many former smokers who gave it up without need for patches, gum , etc, because the Holy Spirit told them......you don't need this anymore....This was me...I smoked for years...then one day I woke up and in my devotion time the HOly Spirit told me...you don't need this anymore...and I dropped it without question or aide 7 days later....this explains James 4.17 to him that knows good and doe snot do it, it is SIN....
As a minister of the Gospel with a ministry....I would never smoke, because it may cause someone I am ministering to, to stumble[Romans 14]....This goes for drinking and other things as well....
I personally believe if you are a Public minister and preaching, teaching, leading worship and called to any ministry, smoking and drinking are unacceptable, because you may cause some to stumble....
No I do not think because you said you still Sin you are wrong....I still SIN as well...I dislike sinless perfection theology big time, because it is not Biblical....
Choice regarding SIN....
If Father tells me that smoking is a SIN and I do it, then I have sinned. If I never smoke, then I have not committed that SIN against Father... You cannot unintentionally smoke a cigarette....you make a conscious decision to light up and smoke...
If God told me smoking was not a SIN, then that is according to my faith and I am not sinning...
So many people were taught decades ago that a smoker was automatically going to hell and not a saved person...this was because of the Pentecostal Holiness and Legalistic Baptist movements....
I know many smokers who smoke and reach people for the Lord and do not believe that God has told them their smoking is a SIN...I also know many former smokers who gave it up without need for patches, gum , etc, because the Holy Spirit told them......you don't need this anymore....This was me...I smoked for years...then one day I woke up and in my devotion time the HOly Spirit told me...you don't need this anymore...and I dropped it without question or aide 7 days later....this explains James 4.17 to him that knows good and doe snot do it, it is SIN....
As a minister of the Gospel with a ministry....I would never smoke, because it may cause someone I am ministering to, to stumble[Romans 14]....This goes for drinking and other things as well....
I personally believe if you are a Public minister and preaching, teaching, leading worship and called to any ministry, smoking and drinking are unacceptable, because you may cause some to stumble....
Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?
My point wasn't that Christ would ever forsake a true believer, but that its possible for a one time believer to lose faith and stop believing.. I've seen it happen, I personally know once sincere Christians who've fallen away from the faith, which imo, makes the 'once saved always saved' ideology a false claim. You can have a change of heart and deny Christ, at which point the osas insurance falls flat on its face.
I agree that those who believe are saved, but osas suggest quite the opposite. If your always saved no matter what, then belief becomes a moot point.. I believe osas is hyperbole, while its meant to assure believers, its also a dangerous concept to lay on shaky believers. You say "we repent when we do sin", but what's a osas persons incentive to do that? My point is that if you were an honest believer at age 12, but become a non-believing mass murderer later in life, osas is a false doctrine. Your only saved as long as you put your faith in Christ, your not 'always saved' when/if you stop doing that. "Whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 10:33).
My point wasn't that Christ would ever forsake a true believer, but that its possible for a one time believer to lose faith and stop believing.. I've seen it happen, I personally know once sincere Christians who've fallen away from the faith, which imo, makes the 'once saved always saved' ideology a false claim. You can have a change of heart and deny Christ, at which point the osas insurance falls flat on its face.
I agree that those who believe are saved, but osas suggest quite the opposite. If your always saved no matter what, then belief becomes a moot point.. I believe osas is hyperbole, while its meant to assure believers, its also a dangerous concept to lay on shaky believers. You say "we repent when we do sin", but what's a osas persons incentive to do that? My point is that if you were an honest believer at age 12, but become a non-believing mass murderer later in life, osas is a false doctrine. Your only saved as long as you put your faith in Christ, your not 'always saved' when/if you stop doing that. "Whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 10:33).
Re: What Would Stop a "Once Saved, Always Saved" Believer From Committing Suicide?
The broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the way of salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:18; John 10:9; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:22-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.
The broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the way of salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:18; John 10:9; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:22-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.