Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer

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Dec 12, 2013
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There is salvation by Faith alone. We agree on this. However if this faith doesn't result in Godly works (as an evidence of this faith), then its not true faith. James makes this clear. So to summarise: Faith = salvation. Faith without works = no salvation (as its not genuine faith).

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

I have highlighted an important piece of the Matt 7v21 scripture for you.

How does Jesus judge his church? By their works.

Evidence can be seen as follows:

Rev 2v2
Rev 2v9
Rev 2v13
Rev 2v19
Rev 3v1
Rev 3v8
Rev 3v15

as an example.

Faith without works is dead. And this faith will not save you.

Paul-->Romans-->Saved and justified before God by faith and faith alone void of works
James-->James-->The invisible faith that saves and justifies before God void of works SEEN by MEN by our works

No one has denied that a believer will produce fruit or works.....the works are the result of the faith and salvation that one already possesses in Christ...even creation teaches this....

Apple tree

a. Is an apple tree from the moment it sprouts (born)
b. Is an apple tree the first couple of years of growth (does not bear fruit yet)
c. After years of growth and maturity will produce fruit...some just one apple some so many the branches break

Even Jesus said a cup of cold water I his name unto another believer would not go unnoticed and or rewarded......ONE piece of fruit or work identifies the tree.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Notice that in Matt 7:19-33..Jesus said:

"I never knew you "...these people were not believers...

( Jesus never said " I used to know you once.". He said I NEVER knew you at all...).

Everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....because He is Lord and will be for eternity.

Jesus said that He "knows" His sheep so those in Matt. 7:19-33 are not true Christians.

John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14[/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.


Jesus did the "will of God"...and delivered us from this present evil world

Galatians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4[/SUP] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:


It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13[/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.

1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)

[SUP]23[/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

[SUP]24[/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The good works we do are from "being in Christ"..being led by the Holy Spirit. Notice God has prepared them for us. We walk them out as we live our lives dependent on Him. It is His fruit that bears in and through us.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

[SUP]9[/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast
.

[SUP]10[/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
I know....blows my mind....how many try and use this to show loss of salvation......HE NEVER KNEW THEM....and the reason is obvious...they attempted a different door other than JESUS and faith......end of story!
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Paul-->Romans-->Saved and justified before God by faith and faith alone void of works
James-->James-->The invisible faith that saves and justifies before God void of works SEEN by MEN by our works

No one has denied that a believer will produce fruit or works.....the works are the result of the faith and salvation that one already possesses in Christ...even creation teaches this....

Apple tree

a. Is an apple tree from the moment it sprouts (born)
b. Is an apple tree the first couple of years of growth (does not bear fruit yet)
c. After years of growth and maturity will produce fruit...some just one apple some so many the branches break

Even Jesus said a cup of cold water I his name unto another believer would not go unnoticed and or rewarded......ONE piece of fruit or work identifies the tree.....
Well we are moving onto the topic of Election (which I believe in), but then that will move this topic into a whole new direction. We are on the same page on faith alone saving. But let me say it again - if it bears no fruit (just like the fig tree which was cursed by Jesus), then this is evidence of NO FAITH. And thus no salvation.

God gives three servants talents. What happens to the servant who buried his talents? Was that SERVANT operating in faith nor not when he buried the talents?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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I know....blows my mind....how many try and use this to show loss of salvation......HE NEVER KNEW THEM....and the reason is obvious...they attempted a different door other than JESUS and faith......end of story!
We can take any scripture out of it's context and make it say what we want.

The bible is the most beautiful book in the world or the most dangerous one.

It's all in the lens we use when we read it. Read it through the lens of the finished work of Christ and then we will see the true heart and love of the Father for His beloved children.

God no more sends His beloved children to hell after they are saved by grace through faith in what Christ has done when they heard the message of Him and were sealed with the Holy Spirit ( Eph. 1:13 ) - then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
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[h=3]Sin and the Child of God[/h][SUP]4 [/SUP]Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. [SUP]8 [/SUP]He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Or maybe perhaps your definition of sin is "somewhat flexible"?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Well we are moving onto the topic of Election (which I believe in), but then that will move this topic into a whole new direction. We are on the same page on faith alone saving. But let me say it again - if it bears no fruit (just like the fig tree which was cursed by Jesus), then this is evidence of NO FAITH. And thus no salvation.

God gives three servants talents. What happens to the servant who buried his talents? Was that SERVANT operating in faith nor not when he buried the talents?
Let me ask a question....

The Corinthian brother who was fornicating....Paul said to put him out of the church for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of Christ....

HOW would you describe his works?

It is obvious he was saved based upon the last clause!

The Corinthian brothers who had works of wood, hay and stubble that were burnt to a crisp yet they were saved as like one escaping through the fire.

How would you describe their works?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
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Sin and the Child of God

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. [SUP]8 [/SUP]He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

John also states, "IF we say that we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is not in us".....

so which is it....?

BOTH

It is the spirit that has been born of incorruptible seed, the spirit is eternally saved, sealed and does not sin

The spirit is still bound in a lost, fallen dead body of sin that is weak.

Paul covers this as well......and concludes that when he does things contrary it is not him doing it, but SIN that dwells in him (his flesh)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
There is salvation by Faith alone. We agree on this. However if this faith doesn't result in Godly works (as an evidence of this faith), then its not true faith. James makes this clear. So to summarise: Faith = salvation. Faith without works = no salvation (as its not genuine faith).

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

I have highlighted an important piece of the Matt 7v21 scripture for you.

How does Jesus judge his church? By their works.

Evidence can be seen as follows:

Rev 2v2
Rev 2v9
Rev 2v13
Rev 2v19
Rev 3v1
Rev 3v8
Rev 3v15

as an example.

Faith without works is dead. And this faith will not save you.

True, True faith produces works.. No one has EVER argued that, and the fact over and over in here people say we are is getting old.

With that said,, That does not mean a person is going to be saved, and became like the apostle paul. If that was required, Few if any, would make it.. Including probably everyone in this roo.

thus we are relegated, and the workers must prove, If lack of works cause loss of salvation, what is the minimum amount of work one must do to be saved.. So please. I will await your reply on what this amount is,, If I can lose salvation, I need to know how much I must do to be saved.. Else I fail to live up to that standard.

And yes, He does judge his children by their works, And they will receive reward, Gold silver precious stone. Sadly, some will see their work bunt up, but they too will be saved, even as through fire (they had nothign to show for their life as it was all burnt up)

The non child of God will be judge by their work to, and be lacking, Because they did not have th eone and only thing which could save them. The blood of Christ.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
We can take any scripture out of it's context and make it say what we want.

The bible is the most beautiful book in the world or the most dangerous one.

It's all in the lens we use when we read it. Read it through the lens of the finished work of Christ and then we will see the true heart and love of the Father for His beloved children.

God no more sends His beloved children to hell after they are saved by grace through faith in what Christ has done when they heard the message of Him and were sealed with the Holy Spirit ( Eph. 1:13 ) - then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.
So a person, MR X, becomes a true believer. Then as time goes by he slacks off concerning the pursuit of the things of God. He doesn't read his bible anymore, doesn't worship, and helps nobody. This slide (backslide) happens over a period of 20 years). The is then led away through desire and enticed, and this brings forth sin. He rapes little children (paedophile) in his old age.

Now, doe this believer, who committed his life to the Lord as a young man, end up in heaven?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Or maybe perhaps your definition of sin is "somewhat flexible"?
Or maybe yours is?

I am sure, DC, Like me, understand that if we stood in front of Christ now how we stand, we would stand guilty as charged, condemned because of sin. If not for the grace of God..
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
So a person, MR X, becomes a true believer. Then as time goes by he slacks off concerning the pursuit of the things of God. He doesn't read his bible anymore, doesn't worship, and helps nobody. This slide (backslide) happens over a period of 20 years). The is then led away through desire and enticed, and this brings forth sin. He rapes little children (paedophile) in his old age.

Now, doe this believer, who committed his life to the Lord as a young man, end up in heaven?
What makes you think you are better than him? Do you think you deserve salvation more than that man?
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
Let me ask a question....

The Corinthian brother who was fornicating....Paul said to put him out of the church for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of Christ....

HOW would you describe his works?

It is obvious he was saved based upon the last clause!

The Corinthian brothers who had works of wood, hay and stubble that were burnt to a crisp yet they were saved as like one escaping through the fire.

How would you describe their works?
Its a very simple answer to this one. The Christian brother had refused to repent, and the church had asked Paul about dealing with this brother. The destruction of the flesh is sickness or disease which would ravage this brother until the point of death. The point being that whilst this brother was still alive (but dying), he would repent of his sinful works so that his soul may be saved. However if that fornicating brother did not repent, then the future is hell.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
So a person, MR X, becomes a true believer. Then as time goes by he slacks off concerning the pursuit of the things of God. He doesn't read his bible anymore, doesn't worship, and helps nobody. This slide (backslide) happens over a period of 20 years). The is then led away through desire and enticed, and this brings forth sin. He rapes little children (paedophile) in his old age.

Now, doe this believer, who committed his life to the Lord as a young man, end up in heaven?
Would have, could have and what if's never lay the truth bare bro.......

The story of Jonah ends with him peeved at God over saving Nineveh...does that change the fact that he was holy and used of God?

Our conscience can be seared with a hot iron and we can forget that our sins have been purged.....that does not change the fact that we are the children of God......
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,920
9,669
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Yes, he will. As long as he repents and asks God's forgiveness. :)


So a person, MR X, becomes a true believer. Then as time goes by he slacks off concerning the pursuit of the things of God. He doesn't read his bible anymore, doesn't worship, and helps nobody. This slide (backslide) happens over a period of 20 years). The is then led away through desire and enticed, and this brings forth sin. He rapes little children (paedophile) in his old age.

Now, doe this believer, who committed his life to the Lord as a young man, end up in heaven?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
Its a very simple answer to this one. The Christian brother had refused to repent, and the church had asked Paul about dealing with this brother. The destruction of the flesh is sickness or disease which would ravage this brother until the point of death. The point being that whilst this brother was still alive (but dying), he would repent of his sinful works so that his soul may be saved. However if that fornicating brother did not repent, then the future is hell.
Not quite and you just embellished the word with your view....the death of the man was the punishment yet the spirit was SAVED.....the bible does not teach the loss of salvation.....
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113

True, True faith produces works.. No one has EVER argued that, and the fact over and over in here people say we are is getting old.

With that said,, That does not mean a person is going to be saved, and became like the apostle paul. If that was required, Few if any, would make it.. Including probably everyone in this roo.

thus we are relegated, and the workers must prove, If lack of works cause loss of salvation, what is the minimum amount of work one must do to be saved.. So please. I will await your reply on what this amount is,, If I can lose salvation, I need to know how much I must do to be saved.. Else I fail to live up to that standard.

And yes, He does judge his children by their works, And they will receive reward, Gold silver precious stone. Sadly, some will see their work bunt up, but they too will be saved, even as through fire (they had nothign to show for their life as it was all burnt up)

The non child of God will be judge by their work to, and be lacking, Because they did not have th eone and only thing which could save them. The blood of Christ.
We are actually not far from one another on this. To answer your question, no amount of works can save a person. WE AGREE. I'll say it once more. WE AGREE. The EVIDENCE of FAITH is the WORKS. And if you have no works its EVIDENCE that the faith is not genuine.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
Yes, he will. As long as he repents and asks God's forgiveness. :)


And if he DOESN'T repent? And doesn't ask forgiveness? Can he go to heaven?

In fact if we are to believe other posters here, the first sinners prayer was all that was needed to ask for forgiveness. Since they cannot lose salvation anymore, there is no more need to ask forgiveness. See how silly this starts to sound.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
We are actually not far from one another on this. To answer your question, no amount of works can save a person. WE AGREE. I'll say it once more. WE AGREE. The EVIDENCE of FAITH is the WORKS. And if you have no works its EVIDENCE that the faith is not genuine.
Then you should agree, Salvation can not be lost by lack of works, Because works is evidence of faith,,