Calvinists,Im Asking...

[MattforJesus]

Who are the "us-ward" of whom Peter is speaking in its context? (They are also the "any" and "all" in that verse as well)

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

A person might think this is directed to the saints,but God wants all people to come to repentance,for it was not directed at only the saints,for they have already repented.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.

God wants all people to come to repentance,so I believe when it states not willing that any perish,but all come to repentance,that is means all of mankind coming to repentance.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Which these scriptures state God wants all people to saved.

 

[Ariel82]

Hmmmm I would not say it like this.

As somebody posted while ago, even the evil persons can do good things. Does it mean it is by the Holy Spirit? I do not know of any Scripture saying it this way.

I think you can behave both good and evil naturaly. But it is not in the meaning "being born of God". Your "soil" will be still wicked,even if, for a time, you can have some nice flower growing from it.

I believe people can be influenced by the Spirit of God without being born again.

.you see in the OT where pagan kings get a message from God in dreams: they do good because of God's influence but it does not make them children of God.

 

[TMS]

A lifetime of choices creates the type of heart(character) we have. Which is the type of ground that the seed falls on. All i can do is focus on choosing Jesus today, and by His grace i will become more and more like Him (all to His Glory).

 

[Ariel82]

Yes, God throws the seed to all the ground. His gospel, preaching, the Word of God, maybe even some kind of faith is a common grace.

But why is it, that some soil is good and some is bad? I think it means that the good one is born of the Spirit. It was not good soil naturaly, but was made so by God.

I agree with you on this point. God removes the rocks and thorns and keeps the birds of the air away, so that the seed can grow in good soil.

God begins the garden, but when does He give use responsibility and care of our souls back to us?

 

[MattforJesus]

I believe people can be influenced by the Spirit of God without being born again.

.you see in the OT where pagan kings get a message from God in dreams: they do good because of God's influence but it does not make them children of God.

People can be influenced by God without being born again,for no person comes to the Son,except the Father draws them,and God was working in our lives to guide us to the truth,before we confessed Christ,for God works in everyone's life before they accept Christ,if their heart is in the right condition to be called.

For once God calls a person He works in their life to guide them to the truth,and if they come to confess Christ,and receive the Spirit,then God will choose them.

God is at hand in a lot of things,with people that are in the truth,and in the world,but with the saints He works the most in their lives,and they know it.

 

[trofimus]

I believe people can be influenced by the Spirit of God without being born again.

.you see in the OT where pagan kings get a message from God in dreams: they do good because of God's influence but it does not make them children of God.

I think that the Babylonian king was born of God, though He gave glory to the One God.

Yes, we are influenced by so many things...

 

[Ariel82]

Believer of God or heathen? Remember this is before "Israel" was ever born.

Genesis 20
And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night and said to him, “Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife.” 4Now Abimelech had not approached her. So he said, “Lord, will you kill an innocent people? 5Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this.” 6Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her. 7Now then, return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”

 

[Ariel82]

I think that the Babylonian king was born of God, though He gave glory to the One God.

Yes, we are influenced by so many things...

He also worshipped idols.

I believe the spirit of Prophecy overtook him temporarily but he was not born of God for he did not believe the,gospel of Jesus.

That's what I mean by those under the Law or "old covenant" like relationship with God,

Versus

People who have a New covenant relationship with God through Jesus.

You can read the OT and see the difference.

The covenant made with Abraham is New and points to Jesus, his promised Seed. Which stems to the Promise God made to Adam and eve, reflected in Able's offering of blood to show how God clothes his parents in animal skin: covering their sin.

Old Covenant is symbolised at Mount Sinai,when folks rejected a personal relationship with God and wanted prophets and written laws instead. Again when they rejected God's kingship and demanded their own King like the,other nations of the world: this getting King Saul.

All who have faith in the Messiah to save them were given the Holy Spirit and called Prophets of old because they had a personal relationship with God.

Most everyone else were under the Old Covenant laws and condemned to death,because they preferred the ways of this world, with its kings and outward laws to,the,ways of God who searches the innermost hearts of all men.

 

[trofimus]

Believer of God or heathen? Remember this is before "Israel" was ever born.

Genesis 20
And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night and said to him, “Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife.” 4Now Abimelech had not approached her. So he said, “Lord, will you kill an innocent people? 5Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this.” 6Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her. 7Now then, return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”

Ah, ok, I thought you are talking about the Babylonian king in Daniel.

I am not sure about this one

 

[Ariel82]

Ah, ok, I thought you are talking about the Babylonian king in Daniel.

Do you have the Bible verse? I remember reading about him eating hay like a donkey as punishment (or maybe that was a Sunday school movie)


Why do you believe he was born again? Did he preach about Jesus the Messiah?

 

[trofimus]

He also worshipped idols.

Solomon worshipped idols, too.

And the Babylonian king had no law from God prohibiting it... so... I do not know. When I read what he wrote after he came back to his senses (after he lost his mind and lived in a wild), it seems like he knew God, to me

 

[Ariel82]

Solomon worshipped idols, too.

And the Babylonian king had no law from God prohibiting it... so... I do not know. When I read what he wrote after he came back to his senses (after he lost his mind and lived in a wild), it seems like he knew God, to me

Demons "knew" God, even told folks about Jesus, but they did not have a saving faith.

 

[trofimus]

Do you have the Bible verse? I remember reading about him eating hay like a donkey as punishment (or maybe that was a Sunday school movie)


Why do you believe he was born again? Did he preach about Jesus the Messiah?

No, he did not preach about Jesus

But when you read Daniel 4, there are some thoughts that have roots in a true faith and knowledge of the real God, I think, like:

"It is my pleasure to tell you about the miraculous signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed for me.

3How great are his signs,
how mighty his wonders!
His kingdom is an eternal kingdom;
his dominion endures from generation to generation."

 

[trofimus]

Demons "knew" God, even told folks about Jesus, but they did not have a saving faith.

Demons do not write to all people "It is my pleasure to tell you about the miraculous signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed for me."

... if you understand what I mean. This must be in the heart.

 

[preacher4truth]

Who is the "all" spoken in this passage, or do you just cherry pick how you apply your reading of scripture?

Watch the way you address me, no need for the snarky false accusation and attitude, it's not becoming of you. Thanks.

Now, give some proof to your attack. Show me how I "(applied) my reading of Scripture" and that the context of "us-ward" in 2 Peter isn't to those to whom he has written. What I shared was who is this in context, this us-ward. So, being consistent I will let the context of Scripture dictate to me what it is really saying, not traditional error that many hold to such as yourself.

Show us all the context, or, stop making more unfounded accusations. Thanks. I'll wait for you to do this.

Finally, it is you cherry picking. Try staying with the passage at hand instead of rushing off to another "proof-text" that you feel supports your errant view.

As before, who are the "us-ward" in the context of the passage that we were discussing?

1 Timothy 2 ►
English Standard Version

1First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the mana Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time

I've already given answer to the above passage:

The text isn't teaching all men who have ever lived although that is a popular misconception, but it doesn't tie into the rest of Scripture in God's redemptive plan. We know that is an impossibility in contradiction in light of the fact of God's predestining and election:

The will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment:

Rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1Ti_2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones. - John Gill

 

[kaylagrl]

If God doesn't influence things, what is your concept of sovereignty?

And those two drunks had the same experience Jesus did on the cross with the thieves on the cross. One he saved and one he didn't.
[/QUOTE



My view would be one listened to the Holy Spirits convicting,the other didn't. Both had the choice And yes I believe God is Sovereign and He can be that and still give man choice.

 

[TMS]

1. According to God's choice we are saved or not (lost).
2. According to our choice we are saved or not.

????Which one.

Our flesh (sinful state) can't choose anything good, can't repent, can't surrender to Jesus, but with the gift of Jesus Christ we are connected to the Spirit that can Choose to surrender and repent. In Jesus we are given the gift (salvation) but we are not forced to believe or have faith in the gift or accept that gift of life.

 

[trofimus]

My view would be one listened to the Holy Spirits convicting,the other didn't. Both had the choice And yes I believe God is Sovereign and He can be that and still give man choice.

I think this is a common misinterpretation of predestination/election. And I admit that it is supported by not very good wording of many Calvinists.

We do have a choice. Thats why God can punish us or reward us according to our deeds.

 

[kaylagrl]

Hey Kayla, hopefully you don't mind if I make some statements about this post as well.

Not all of us believe that God influences everything directly. I know some here do. I don't believe God influences everything directly, especially when it comes to man and their sin except in regards to restraining it. Again, this leads to equal ultimacy which I, and most other reformed believers reject. There seems to be some that do believe in equal ultimacy however.

You believe the Holy Spirit convicts and draws everyone, but if this was the case, then Jesus is obligated to save everyone on the planet. The word used for draw in the Greek also means to drag. It's a positive force and action on God's part and man has no choice in the matter. I always go back to John 6 on this because there is no way around Jesus' words here:

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Notice in verse 36 that Jesus tells those around him that they have seen him and have not believed and immediately goes on to say that all that the Father gives him will come to him. He is basically telling them that the Father has not given them to him. Notice verse 40. Everyone that believes will have eternal life and will be raised on the last day. Now, about being drawn:

43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life.

This is without a doubt a soteriological passage and Jesus himself says that all that the Father draws (drags) to him, he will save. If the Father draws all men, Jesus is bound to save all men. The only conclusion can be universalism, but we see in verse 36 that some don't believe, so that rules this out.

No,I dont mind. I would say the Spirit draws but because of free will not everyone will accept,I do not believe in universalism.

 

[Ariel82]

Watch the way you address me, no need for the snarky false accusation and attitude, it's not becoming of you. Thanks.

I've already given answer to the above passage:

The text isn't teaching all men who have ever lived although that is a popular misconception, but it doesn't tie into the rest of Scripture in God's redemptive plan. We know that is an impossibility in contradiction in light of the fact of God's predestining and election:

Oh you are right, you are consistent in eisegesis what you believe into any text you read

We know it's impossible for you to consider in light of what You know is right.

That's funny isn't it? Scripture says God will "ALL MEN to be saved, and to come to All knowledge of the truth". I think I'll keep sticking to the Word, not man made errors that contradict truth.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Watch the way you address me, no need for
the snarky false accusation and attitude, it's not becoming of you. Thanks.


Side note: before you fling out the false accusation of "universalism" and "Pelagian" theology, I have already shown my beliefs are far from either. You just don't care to listen, because it's "impossible" for you to make false accusations?