Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Good question.

And one that could shed some light on "works".

So is a work something we do thinking we're doing well...
or is it the end result of something we do???

I say it's number 1.
If we believe we're doing something MORALLY CORRECT, whatever the outcome is, we've done a good work.

thoughts?

I would go with number 3.

The reason not number 2 is it may not bear fruit, (serving a person who does not grow from it,, It may be just a planted seed)

The reason not number 1 is pride, Just because we think something is good. does not mean we are doing it as a good deed, We can do a good deed in the wrong motive

Number 3. Are we seeking the things of the spirit. or seeking things of the flesh?

That is what determines a good work in my mind.. Am I serving self or serving others.

 

[FranC]

If you had the Holy Spirit He would keep you from murdering someone.

If you murder someone you never bad the Holy Spirit, but it's never to late to repent and ask God for forgiveness.

God can make murderers into believers, but people lead by the Holy Spirit so NOT murder.

I see.
So to God every sin is the same.
If I've broken one commandment, I've broken them all.
So if the Holy Spirit is with me and this means I cannot murder anyone,

Then why do I do other sins if the Holy Spirit is with me?
Why doesn't the Holy Spirit just stop me from sinning?

I hope you see the fallacy of your reasoning.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Fran, why can't you understand that the thief on the cross, DID a good work? As blessedjohn said, the thief turned to Jesus in his last earthly moments, for salvation, and Jesus saved him. Faith is a work that God gives us.

 

[FranC]

Of course the Holy Spirit is with you. Even having sex with temple prostitutes - is the Holy Spirit with you still? Paul says "yes" when he was telling the Corinthians that when they were going to the temple prostitutes and they were taking Christ with them.

If you have an outburst of anger - is the Holy spirit with you? If you have envy towards someone - is the Holy Spirit with you?

If we have malice towards someone - is the Holy Spirit with us? Of course He is. Jesus said He would be with us and in us forever. John 14:16

All the works of the flesh are equal in terms of they are all in the same lists and the Holy Spirit does not leave us because we walk by the flesh.

The Holy Spirit does not go in and out of us every time we do something that is not Christ like. That's a horrible religion.

My goodness - what a mess that would be and it's not even remotely close to the truth that we are a new creation in Christ - now it's time to renew our minds to depend on His grace in and through us to bear His fruit in our lives.

Could you and Ariel please get toether on this???
She seems to believe that if the Holy Spirit is with a person, they cannot sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again EG,
God knows what will happen,
He does not ACT UPON IT, This is theologically incorrect.

A big question is:

BECAUSE GOD KNOWS THE FUTURE,
DOES THIS CHANGE THE FUTURE?

And that's just KNOWING the future...

Go talk to these theologians about ACTING on what He knows!!

See what I mean. I don't know where you got this idea, but I've never heard it and it can't be right.

Yes, He does know what will happen, and Yes he does act on it.

He knew the amroite would not be so far gone they would never again repent for 400 years. So he left Israel in Egypt for that time

He knows Isreal will again repent. So he has reserved them to keep his promise.

Prophesy is meaningless, if God does not act on what he knows. In fact he would never have came after me if he did not know how I would react.

That is how he can be soverign and we can have free will. Foreknowledge. (we are predestined. We could not be predestined unless God knew)

Just because you never heard of it, does not mean it is not right, I did not hear alot of things,, But I have found them to be true.

 

[FranC]

there are two types of sanctification.

Positional and conditional.

We are set apart positionally by the fact we are in christ (sonship)

We are set apart in our daily lives conditionally by how well we resemble christ (lordship)

one remains forever,

one can go up and down many times in just one day,, One can be walking in the light one minute, and someon cut them off on the highway, and instead of forgiving like God, we get mad, and a little road rage sets in, We have went from sanctified, to unsanctified in one minute..

but did we lose our salvation because of those sins?

We went from sanctified to unsanctified in one minute?

WHERE do you learn this stuff?????

If you lose sanctification it means you've lost your salvation.
You don't lose anything by getting angry.

YOU'RE the one who tells me you're trusting in Jesus. What are you trusting in Him for if you just told me you "became unsanctified"???

And what is this positionally stuff? I know what you mean but it's a new fandangled kind of teaching.
Now that nice blonde lady that teaches this on the Word of Faith station if very nice, but try to trust yourself to theologians when it come to your Christianity. Not TV and not the internet.

That would be good.
Nice solid doctrine.

Someone here scolded me because I used the word Hyper --- maybe it was you. Yes. You thanked Stephen.
Well, go through your bible and tell me which verse has the word POSITIONAL in it.

Or if you could even get me the concept out of the bible it would be good.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God's promises are to those IN COVENANT. If we break covenant, just like Israel broke covenant, then God can forsake (Deut 31).

Only two of Gods covenants were conditional.

The ademic, and the mosaic.

All the rest of Gods covenants were unconditional. God said, I WILL, He did not say IF YOU DO.

But hey, if you want to try to save yourself.. Thats fine, don;t let me stop you..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i can't answer this. It's too far out.
think about it.

If what you say is true, I can ever know if I am saved.

I love God today and walk with Him.
BUT
Is He by my side?????

Maybe not. Because HE KNOWS I'm going to fall away 2 years from now and why give me a gift He knows I'm going to then reject.

I never heard of anything like this.

Could you please give me a scripture that alludes to this since the bible is our ultimate authority?
I'd appreciate it.

You can know.

John said, I write things things to you so you may KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. and by this continue to believe in his name.

The key to continuin gin faith is KNOWING YOU ARE SECURE, knowing you are saved.

On the other hand, if salvation can be lost, then your right, You can never know if your saved or not. You must continually live in fear not knowing if you will live up..

 

[Chris1975]

So how does this tie in with what you believe

Matthew 24:24 (NKJV)
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Hi Bill,

To explain this a distinction will need to be made between believer and the elect.
- 1. All the Elect are believers
- 2. Not all believers are Elect

What does this mean?

God chooses a people from before the foundation of the earth - those whom He will save. All of these WILL BE saved. For these will never lose their faith in Christ. God knows this IN ADVANCE, for He knows the end from the beginning.

However....

Not all believers are Elect. Some believers will fall away from the faith. Some believers will continue in the faith. These who continue in the faith prove their election. Their salvation is made complete on the final DAY. Those who fall away become apostates (myriad of scriptures supporting this). These who fall away were the primary targets of the false teachers and prophets. God too knows, from the beginning of time, that these would fall away.

We as believers do not know exactly who the Elect are. We know by the fruit whether someone believes or doesn't believe. This is not to say that this cannot change. For what if a false teacher leads someone astray and they lose faith in Christ? That is, after all, the primary purpose of a false teacher. And they exist. You will see backsliding (you know this exists in the church body). That's why all the writers in the NT implore their readers to maintain their faith, fight the good fight of faith, nurture, keep the faith. For this is the area whereby the enemy can gain a foothold.

So coming back to the verse above:

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

There is a DEFINITE possibility that believers could be deceived. Lots of scriptures supporting this. However the writer (Matthew) recording the words of Jesus says that even, if possible, even the elect could be deceived. The words "if possible" actually means that the deception is SO GREAT that even the elect could be swayed. Yet we KNOW that the elect cannot be lost, and hence the words again "if possible". Meaning that its not possible. Its probably one of the most profound statements. Poetic in depth.

[h=1]2 Peter 1:10New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;



Now read the preceding verses and the one after.


Election and Salvation meet up in perfect harmony on the Day of the Lord.

 

[FranC]

there are two types of sanctification.

Positional and conditional.

We are set apart positionally by the fact we are in christ (sonship)

We are set apart in our daily lives conditionally by how well we resemble christ (lordship)

one remains forever,

one can go up and down many times in just one day,, One can be walking in the light one minute, and someon cut them off on the highway, and instead of forgiving like God, we get mad, and a little road rage sets in, We have went from sanctified, to unsanctified in one minute..

but did we lose our salvation because of those sins?

P.S.

There's only ONE type of sanctification.
It's called SANCTIFICATION.

Now, if you're witnessing to a Catholic it would behoove you to use the words "PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION", which is what they call sanctification.

But there's ONLY ONE. NOT two.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We went from sanctified to unsanctified in one minute?

WHERE do you learn this stuff?????

If you lose sanctification it means you've lost your salvation.

Where do you get this stuff?

If I am in a moment of sin, I am not sanctified, I am acting according to my flesh. If I turn, and stop that sin, and start serving people again, I am sanctified, because I am serving the spirit, not the flesh.

A mature believer changes less and less,, And starts to act more like Christ, wherfe a baby christian may not even resemble Christ.

You don't lose anything by getting angry.

Yes you do,, It is a sin, SO you lose quite a bit, and so do the people who suffer from your sin.

YOU'RE the one who tells me you're trusting in Jesus. What are you trusting in Him for if you just told me you "became unsanctified"???

Think about it. Are you perfect? if you said no, Then your in the same boat

And what is this positionally stuff? I know what you mean but it's a new fandangled kind of teaching.
Now that nice blonde lady that teaches this on the Word of Faith station if very nice, but try to trust yourself to theologians when it come to your Christianity. Not TV and not the internet.

That would be good.
Nice solid doctrine.

Someone here scolded me because I used the word Hyper --- maybe it was you. Yes. You thanked Stephen.
Well, go through your bible and tell me which verse has the word POSITIONAL in it.

Or if you could even get me the concept out of the bible it would be good.

I learned about my position in christ 40 years ago. You mean you have never heard of it? What kind of church do you go to??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

P.S.

There's only ONE type of sanctification.
It's called SANCTIFICATION.

Now, if you're witnessing to a Catholic it would behoove you to use the words "PROGRESSIVE JUSTIFICATION", which is what they call sanctification.

But there's ONLY ONE. NOT two.

ps. Please study, Please learn, Sanctification is a term.

You are positionally sanctified in Christ, it is a term also known as justified, Eternal life Being in christ. It is your position in spiritual places.

You are conditionally sanctified every moment of every day, If we were ALL sanctified completely, we would all be perfect the moment we were saved, and have no sin..

Glorification is a term where our conditional sanctification and our positional sanctification meet (we are not only in perfect standing with God, we are perfect period, we will never sin again.)

This is basic christianity, I learned as a child but did not fully understand until later. But still it was taught. We teach it to our new believers in my new church (which is not the same type of church I grew up in) every church I have ever been in (and being military for 15 years, it has been many) taught this basic christian growth concept.

Again, what church do you go to?

 

[blue_ladybug]

It's called being human. Even having the Holy Spirit, we still sin sometimes, because we still have free will..

I see.
So to God every sin is the same.
If I've broken one commandment, I've broken them all.
So if the Holy Spirit is with me and this means I cannot murder anyone,

Then why do I do other sins if the Holy Spirit is with me?
Why doesn't the Holy Spirit just stop me from sinning?

I hope you see the fallacy of your reasoning.

 

[PeterJens]

You don't lose anything by getting angry.

Yes you do,, It is a sin, SO you lose quite a bit, and so do the people who suffer from your sin.

Have you read in scripture
"Do not get angry"

And the Lord was angry enough with Aaron to destroy him, but at that time I prayed for Aaron too.
Deut 9:20

An angry person stirs up conflict, and a hot-tempered person commits many sins.
Prov 29:22

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.
Matt 5:22

“In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,
Eph 4:26

My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires.
James 1:19-20

Anger is a powerful emotion, but is also necessary part of life.
Jesus restricted our anger towards brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Anger is just when truly justified. If it was not appropriate God himself
would never get angry.

Typically for people who are addicted to self condemnation, anger is both repressed
and any expression of anger called sin. Not surprising then they find it so hard to follow
Jesus, as expression of frustration is always sinful for them.

 

[BillG]

I do not see any difference between the Old Testament,and the New Testament,in this aspect.

God gave the Old Testament,they had to obey,or else they were in trouble,and it is sin that separated them from God(Isaiah 59).

God gave the New Testament,and we have to obey,or else we are in trouble,which God commands all people to repent,and it is sin that separates us from God,and when confess Christ,it is still sin that separates us from God(James 1:12-16;1 John 3:2-10).

For it always sin that separates us from God,whether Old Testament or New,whether in the Old a Jew or a Gentile,whether in the New confess Christ,or do not confess Christ.

It is always sin that separates us from God.

Obey!For to obey is better than sacrifice,and Jesus said if you do not follow His commandments you do not love Him,and said a new commandment I give you that you love one another,as I have loved you,and love works no ill towards their neighbor,therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

But in 1 Corinthians.Paul said,without love he is nothing,and love does not think an evil thought,and does not rejoice in iniquity,but rejoices in the truth,living a lifestyle that is Christlike.

If we want to abstain from sin,and act Christlike,by the Spirit we can,which is what God wants,because sin separates us from God,so God wants us to cease from sinning.

Excuses do not mean anything,which is what the people in Matthew 7 said to Jesus,we did this and we did that,and Jesus said you were workers of iniquity,and there is no excuse of your sin,for if you did not want sin by the Spirit you could of abstained from sin,but you wanted sin,so therefore you cannot dwell with Me,because you did not care to act like Me representing goodness.

Whatever position on earth,it is always sin that separates us from God.

To obey is better than a sacrifice?

Psalms 51:16-17
For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.

Yes I agree with you to some extent sin does separate us from God.

The sin that Jesus talked about

John 16:7-11
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.


Firstly it's the sin of unbelief that separates us from God.
When we repent of that and place genuine faith in Jesus then we are reconciled to God through the death of Jesus and his death only. Nothing more and nothing less.

The Spirit unveils to the world the real nature of its sin, the truth about righteousness found only in God.

You talk about abstaining from and we can. Now I am not disagreeing with you in that sense but we can find ourselves concentrating on sin management rather than focusing on Jesus.

To me if we focus on Jesus in us rather than the sin in us then sin will decrees and Christ increases.

Now sin is not just the things we do but also the things we don't do. The things we don't do are the ones Jesus talks about when we separates the sheep from the goats.

Jesus refers to beleivers as sheep. And when dumb sheep go astray he hunts them down and brings them back.

When dumb seep go astray they are not separated from God, they are not at one moment a child and when they get it wrong are no longer his child.

The relationship is strained, but not from Gods side but from our side.

When my kids get it wrong they are still my kids and I still love them deeply, yet when they get it wrong I don't want them to hide from me for fear of being rejected. Thankfully they know they won't be.

I have always encouraged them that if they do, come and talk to me about it. We can discuss it and work together.

As genuine followers of Jesus we will get it wrong, when we do we come before God, hold our hands up admit it, say sorry and ask God to help us.

With God he does not say to genuine believer "3 strikes and your out"

If you think you can obey God perfectly then life is going to be very hard for you.

 

[mailmandan]

Matthew 24:24 (NKJV)
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 24:24 - Quoting from Greek scholar AT Robertson - These charlatans will be so skillful that they will, if possible (ei dunaton), lead astray the very elect. The implication is that it is not possible.

 

[BillG]

I would say you can have two people doing the exact same deed.


1 Is a good deed which will bear fruit
1 is a selfish deed, which is considered sin, A work of self righteousness

Thats why A non believer can do the same deed, yet be told he can do no good..

Why is this? As you said, the motive.

Yep and it's the motive that Jesus will judge.

The motive can be to get something back in return, therefore selfish and self seeking.
The other to impress God and say "I did it on my own, therefore I don't need the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross"

 

[FranC]

Its interesting to think about.

Who did Jesus primarily come to?

Matthew 15:23-28


But He answered her not a word.
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Thats not to say salvation was for Israel only as we can see in his response to the Gentile woman above.

Romans 9-11 Paul talks about Israel.

We find in chapter 11

Romans 11:1-6
Chapter 11
Israel's Rejection Not Total
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

I like the Wedding Banquet to illustrate the above.
Mathew 22.

Also, God did tell Abraham that he would be the father of many... Through his seed. Genesis 17:5

Abram..... Exalted Father
Abraham.. Father of a multitude (of nations).

I'd also like to say that I feel we Christians may very well be in this position today.
There was Always a remnant of the Israelites to whom God revealed Himself and whom we can see in their daily lives throught the O.T.

But aren't we also disappearing?
Will there be a remnant?
I believe so.
God doesn't change.

 

[PeterJens]

"now God's enemies deny sinning and refuse to repent when confronted"


earlier today, on another thread, I pointed out to you that telling folks that you do not personally know that you know how they feel, what they believe, etc...... is not truthful, therefore a lie, a sin.


you rejected this, so BY YOUR OWN WORDS you make yourself an enemy of God.


and, before you respond, keep in my you constantly engage in the behavior I pointed out, and you wrote what I quoted. you did.

I repent of my sins before the King.
The problem with your accusation it relies on my statement being wrong.
Do you know it is wrong?


"It seems like your approach is to not walk righteously even in the small things, and thereby
excuse the whole approach. This walk is not impossible, but to you it would appear so."

I repent if it is sinful to say someones approach appears to be a particular way. I have no
trouble saying this.

Before the Lord I am always humbled and it is to His presence I walk, Amen, glory to God.

 

[FranC]

You see this covenant is all dependent on Israel not forsaking God. His promises are certain. He will not leave or forsake them. But what is clear is that covenant has two sides. The part Israel brings, and the part God brings. Should Israel BREAK COVENANT, then God can forsake them.

Evidence below:

Deuteronomy 31v8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the Lord, He is the One who goes before you. He will be with you, He will not leave you nor forsake you; do not fear nor be dismayed.”

We have new testament scriptures saying the same thing to the church Hebrews 13v5 for example.

HOWEVER...

In the same chapter of Deuteronomy we see the following:

Deuteronomy 31 v16-18
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the Lord said to Moses: “Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’ [SUP]18 [/SUP]And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods.

You see, what the flaky OSAS doctrine fails to grasp, and the flaky flakes that these false teacher hold onto is a TOTAL and UNCONDITIONAL rule that God will never leave of forsake them. The Israelites may have thought in the exactly the same way. But yet we see a conditional covenant in place for Israel of old. ---- And they then FORSOOK God (verse 16). The covenant was BROKEN according to God.

In the same way we have a new covenant in Christ. To all those who BELIEVE in Christ. Yet to Believe is to Love Christ. To Love Christ is to Obey Christ. If the church breaks covenant with God, and refuses to repent, then the covenant is broken.

Hi Chris,

I'll be leaving this thread soon. I don't have a lot of time and I'd like to move on.

There's plenty of scripture that proves that eternal salvation, or OSAS, is NOT biblical.
We don't even have to use the covenants to prove it.

I do want to say that the Mosaic Covenant was conditional. There were curses and blesssings associated with it.
However, the New Covenant is NOT conditional. God will work out His plan whether or not we agree to it.

THIS is the problem with those that hold to OSAS. They feel that since the Covenant is NOT conditional, then once they're in it, that's it forever.

What they fail to understand is that it is not conditional for GOD. God will make come to pass what He had planned from the beginning. The Abrahamic Covenant was also not conditional. God Himself wanted to make His seed (Jesus) available to the entire world. Nothing would stop Him. So it is with the New Covenant. God promised to provide a way for our salvation.
Jesus is our salvation. God did this.

If we want to be a part of the new Covenant, then we have to be IN the New Covenant. If we decide to LEAVE it, then we are no longer a part of it. As they say: You have to be in it, to win it.

We can know that OSAS is NOT BIBLICAL for many reasons. Not the least of which is that it NEVER EXISTED until Mr. Calvin came along in the early 1500's. So, was Christianity wrong until then? Certainly not!

OSAS sounds really good. We speak about false teachings --- I'd have to say that this is the worst of all.

Jesus Himself spoke of branches being cut off. What do people think this means???

I'll stop here and I hope to be seeing you around.