Not By Works

[FranC]

I would go with number 3.

The reason not number 2 is it may not bear fruit, (serving a person who does not grow from it,, It may be just a planted seed)

The reason not number 1 is pride, Just because we think something is good. does not mean we are doing it as a good deed, We can do a good deed in the wrong motive

Number 3. Are we seeking the things of the spirit. or seeking things of the flesh?

That is what determines a good work in my mind.. Am I serving self or serving others.

You know EG, I'd like to stay here just to talk to you. You have the basics down good, but sometimes you say things that make me want to say
WHA??

Ok. I agree with you that number 2 is wrong. We cannot know the outcome of our actions. We can only do our best and hope for the best. We can't look into the future. We have to trust that if our action is good, then something good will come of it. This does not necessarily hold true. Sometimes we think we're doing good and we end up doing bad. It's life. This isn't a philosophy class so we're good.

I'd love it if you could get it out of your head that we can't say we're doing a good deed because it's pride.
Let's break this down a minute so there's no misunderstanding.

Let's take Mathew 6:1
Jesus is saying not to practice our righteousness before men so that we can be noticed by them.

But in Mathew 5:16 Jesus is telling us to let our light so shine before men so that they may see our good works and glorify our Father in heaven.

I think this is what you're alluding to when you say that in your mind a good work is something you do for someone else.
Of corse this is what a good work is. If I want the last piece of chocolate and my husband wants the last piece of chocolate, he should get it.

But why do you speak of saying this as if it's pride?
Jesus said to let our light shine before men. For instance, if I go to Church every Sunday, what would be wrong if I said this to my neighbor? Is it pride? Or is it me witnessing to him?

If I tell someone I'm a believer (which is how it's said here) and THEN I tell them I volunteer for something or other... is this good or is it pride?

Do you think I'm right?

 

[FranC]

Fran, why can't you understand that the thief on the cross, DID a good work? As blessedjohn said, the thief turned to Jesus in his last earthly moments, for salvation, and Jesus saved him. Faith is a work that God gives us.

Blue,
I don't understand faith to be a work.
I understand it to be a free gift of God.
Ephesians 2:8

 

[FranC]

Yes, He does know what will happen, and Yes he does act on it.

He knew the amroite would not be so far gone they would never again repent for 400 years. So he left Israel in Egypt for that time

He knows Isreal will again repent. So he has reserved them to keep his promise.

Prophesy is meaningless, if God does not act on what he knows. In fact he would never have came after me if he did not know how I would react.

That is how he can be soverign and we can have free will. Foreknowledge. (we are predestined. We could not be predestined unless God knew)

Just because you never heard of it, does not mean it is not right, I did not hear alot of things,, But I have found them to be true.

EG

This gets into predestination.

Do you believe that you have a free will or do you believe that God plans every move you make?

Trust me EG, I've heard of predestination. You got it a little mixed up in your post.
First you say you believe in free will, then you say you don't.
Could you answer my question?

 

[limey410]

Oh really.
I'm not even replying to this.
Are you serious?
If Adam wasn't saved WHO WAS?
This discussion goes on with theologians all the time.
ADAM WAS SAVED.
HE BECAME LOST.

What? You have to be lost first to be saved?
NO.
What are we saved from?
Hell.
Being distant from God.

You tell me. Whatever we get saved FROM, Adam had it.



HE LOST IT.

Did he or did he not have what every born again Christian has?

Did he have it when he was banished from the garden?

In addition, what did Adam need saving from? His original condition was walking with God and living in Paradise. His fallen condition is what we need to be saved from. How did he fall, He sinned. What was the consequence of that, death (Spiritual, he physically lived till he was 900 or so).
How do we rise? Through Christs sacrifice we have the forgiveness of sins, and we are resurrected by the restoration of the Holy Spirit lost in Adam.

Also, theologians argue with each other about everything, Theology is the study of God, not necessarily the knowledge of who He is. I for one am not overly impressed with the theology card.

 

[FranC]

Only two of Gods covenants were conditional.

The ademic, and the mosaic.

All the rest of Gods covenants were unconditional. God said, I WILL, He did not say IF YOU DO.

But hey, if you want to try to save yourself.. Thats fine, don;t let me stop you..

This is right EG.
But it' the EDENIC Covenant.

The Adamic Covenant was non-conditional.

 

[FranC]

You can know.

John said, I write things things to you so you may KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. and by this continue to believe in his name.

The key to continuin gin faith is KNOWING YOU ARE SECURE, knowing you are saved.

On the other hand, if salvation can be lost, then your right, You can never know if your saved or not. You must continually live in fear not knowing if you will live up..

EG
You're gonna make me crazy!!!

First of all I KNOW that I can know I have eternal life.

I was saying that based on your belief of God acting within time, that you WOULD NOT KNOW. See?
Anyway, forget it because the Whole premise is not right.

Second, listen to me...

If I believe I could become lost, then I could be secure in my salvation.

It's the OSAS doctrine that does not allow you to be secure.

If you want to discuss this, I'm willing, but give a sign because I really need to go to a different thread.

Think about it...
OSAS says that if I don't believe anymore, it means I was never saved to begin with.
SO HOW COULD I KNOW I'M REALLY SAVED AND WON'T BE LOST SOMEWHERE DOWN THE LINE?

Instead, MY (and the biblical) belief is that salvation CAN be lost. That means it's up to ME to decide to keep it.
So, as long as I KEEP IT, I know I'm saved and am secure.

Think about it.

 

[FranC]

Hi Bill,

To explain this a distinction will need to be made between believer and the elect.
- 1. All the Elect are believers
- 2. Not all believers are Elect

What does this mean?

God chooses a people from before the foundation of the earth - those whom He will save. All of these WILL BE saved. For these will never lose their faith in Christ. God knows this IN ADVANCE, for He knows the end from the beginning.

However....

Not all believers are Elect. Some believers will fall away from the faith. Some believers will continue in the faith. These who continue in the faith prove their election. Their salvation is made complete on the final DAY. Those who fall away become apostates (myriad of scriptures supporting this). These who fall away were the primary targets of the false teachers and prophets. God too knows, from the beginning of time, that these would fall away.

We as believers do not know exactly who the Elect are. We know by the fruit whether someone believes or doesn't believe. This is not to say that this cannot change. For what if a false teacher leads someone astray and they lose faith in Christ? That is, after all, the primary purpose of a false teacher. And they exist. You will see backsliding (you know this exists in the church body). That's why all the writers in the NT implore their readers to maintain their faith, fight the good fight of faith, nurture, keep the faith. For this is the area whereby the enemy can gain a foothold.

So coming back to the verse above:

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

There is a DEFINITE possibility that believers could be deceived. Lots of scriptures supporting this. However the writer (Matthew) recording the words of Jesus says that even, if possible, even the elect could be deceived. The words "if possible" actually means that the deception is SO GREAT that even the elect could be swayed. Yet we KNOW that the elect cannot be lost, and hence the words again "if possible". Meaning that its not possible. Its probably one of the most profound statements. Poetic in depth.

[h=1]2 Peter 1:10New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;



Now read the preceding verses and the one after.


Election and Salvation meet up in perfect harmony on the Day of the Lord.

Sorry to cut in Bill,
But does Chris here remind you of someone?
Chopper?

 

[FranC]

In addition, what did Adam need saving from? His original condition was walking with God and living in Paradise. His fallen condition is what we need to be saved from. How did he fall, He sinned. What was the consequence of that, death (Spiritual, he physically lived till he was 900 or so).
How do we rise? Through Christs sacrifice we have the forgiveness of sins, and we are resurrected by the restoration of the Holy Spirit lost in Adam.

Also, theologians argue with each other about everything, Theology is the study of God, not necessarily the knowledge of who He is. I for one am not overly impressed with the theology card.

Yeah, but that and the bible is all we've got!

OK. You're giving me lessons on Adam and Eve and we both know those.

You can believe what you like.

Adam, in the original state, had everything a saved person has.
He was friendly with God.
He trusted God.
He spoke to God.
He was going to live forever.
He did not fear God.

Adam lost all this when he ate the forbidden fruit. He lost his saved state.
He didn't need saving from anything?
He was in danger, just like we are when we're not saved.
He gave in to the danger.

It's OK. I hate to argue stuff that's not important.
There are plenty of verses that say we could lose our salvation.
Here's one:
Romans 11:19-22

 

[FranC]

Where do you get this stuff?

If I am in a moment of sin, I am not sanctified, I am acting according to my flesh. If I turn, and stop that sin, and start serving people again, I am sanctified, because I am serving the spirit, not the flesh.

If you're in a moment of sin, you might not be in God's grace (althoughI don't even believe that) but you don't become unsanctified. Sanctificatin is a process. It doesn't go back and forth. We sin every day and many times in that day. Do you think we're sanctified, unsanctified, sanctified, unsanctified??? Do you see how silly this sounds?
In Christ we are ALWAYS serving the spirit. When we sin, we sin in the flesh, or some hcurches teach that we give in to our sin nature --- however, this doesn't make us lose sanctification.

A mature believer changes less and less,, And starts to act more like Christ, wherfe a baby christian may not even resemble Christ.

Agreed.



Yes you do,, It is a sin, SO you lose quite a bit, and so do the people who suffer from your sin.

EG, getting angry is not a sin. It's a human emotion. It only BECOMES sin depending on what we do with it.
Jesus got angry. Was he sinning? There is also righeous anger. If you see some little kid being beat up and you get angry with who's hitting him, that is not a sin.
If you take the anger and try to get Revenge, THEN it becomes a sin.
Think about it. Are you perfect? if you said no, Then your in the same boat

I'm not perfect but I'm not in the same boat. I believe I AM BEING sanctified. I don't lose that by sinning. Jesus is our covering. God doesn't even see us, He sees His son. When you sin you don't become un-sanctified.

I learned about my position in christ 40 years ago. You mean you have never heard of it? What kind of church do you go to??

I've heard of a lot of things. This positional stuff is modern. When I really want to know about something I go way back to the early Church fathers. They knew John the Apostle, they knew people who knew the Apostles, who knew Paul and Peter. I think they know the best. Stuff we made up in the last 200 years doesn't interest me too much. It just confuses things, as is evident from these threads. I also trust theologians, and, of course, the bible - which is easy to understand if read with an open mind and not pre-conceieved doctrine.

 

[JIMBO43]

Adam was birthed with the Spirit of Life breathed into him. He was not born spiritually dead, so was not lost, ergo had nothing to be saved from. We, as a result of what Adam did are born without the Spirit of Life living within us and are born lost.
Adam is not an example of saved turning to lost. He is an example of what happens when one doesn't believe God.
Hence a Savior, Our salvation is based on our belief in the finished work and then the acceptance of the Holy Spirit that is being restored to us. There is no provision for the removal of that once it has occurred.

If that where true than why do guardian angels watch over all children and stare back in the face of God...

 

[FranC]

ps. Please study, Please learn, Sanctification is a term.

You are positionally sanctified in Christ, it is a term also known as justified, Eternal life Being in christ. It is your position in spiritual places.

You are conditionally sanctified every moment of every day, If we were ALL sanctified completely, we would all be perfect the moment we were saved, and have no sin..

Glorification is a term where our conditional sanctification and our positional sanctification meet (we are not only in perfect standing with God, we are perfect period, we will never sin again.)

This is basic christianity, I learned as a child but did not fully understand until later. But still it was taught. We teach it to our new believers in my new church (which is not the same type of church I grew up in) every church I have ever been in (and being military for 15 years, it has been many) taught this basic christian growth concept.

Again, what church do you go to?

EG

Two things:

1. What does glorificaton mean to you?


2. I went to a Nazarene Church for about 10 years.
Right now, no Church --- not because I woudn't want to, long story.

I grew up Catholic and taught in that Church. I know Catholic doctrine well and I know Protestant doctrine well.
I think the Nazarene Church is a very pure and simple Church. I don't know if it's still like that. I live far away now.
What Church do you attend?

 

[JIMBO43]

Sorry....i have no idea what you are asking here. I don't understand what you are saying.

if we do not do good we are not of the seed...

 

[mailmandan]

I went to a Nazarene Church for about 10 years.
Right now, no Church --- not because I woudn't want to, long story.
I grew up Catholic and taught in that Church.

That explains a lot.

 

[limey410]

If that where true than why do guardian angels watch over all children and stare back in the face of God...

Please clarify. I'm not quite sure what you are relating to.

 

[JIMBO43]

Yes i conclude that to hope for salvation when you mess up is a wonderful repenting heart..

 

[FranC]

Sorry....i have no idea what you are asking here. I don't understand what you are saying.

It's your post no. 7318
You said:

I believe that the Holy Spirit knew what He was doing when He had Paul write 1 Corinthians.

Some of them were going to temple prostitutes for sex, they were taking each other to court, they were in divisions and strife, they were not treating the poor amongst them right...etc.

Paul was saying that those in Corinth were acting like mere men and men of flesh - in other words not being spiritually minded.

You're saying that the Holy Spirit KNEW what He was doing when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians.
Then you go on to say that the believers were acting like men in the flesh.
And Paul was telling them NOT TO.

So you're saying we have to behave and be good.

I'm asking you WHAT IF WE'RE NOT.
Is it OK?
Does God not mind?

Can we have the Holy Spirit AND be doing the things the HolySpirit was warning Paul about all at the same time?

I'm saying that if we deny God, we can lose our salvation.
And I believe you just proved it.

 

[FranC]

That explains a lot.

What does it explain MMD?

 

[JIMBO43]

Please clarify. I'm not quite sure what you are relating to.

mathew 18:10 10See that you do not look down on any of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. …

 

[JIMBO43]

Adam was birthed with the Spirit of Life breathed into him. He was not born spiritually dead, so was not lost, ergo had nothing to be saved from. We, as a result of what Adam did are born without the Spirit of Life living within us and are born lost.
Adam is not an example of saved turning to lost. He is an example of what happens when one doesn't believe God.
Hence a Savior, Our salvation is based on our belief in the finished work and then the acceptance of the Holy Spirit that is being restored to us. There is no provision for the removal of that once it has occurred.

If children are no longer born with spirit then why do angels look after them all... mathew 18:10 10See that you do not look down on any of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. …

 

[FranC]

Amen! [/SIZE]These false teachers are as dogs who return to their own vomit or as sows (pigs) who return to the mire (the pig pen). God's people are never compared to dogs or pigs. They are sheep. But these people are still pigs (or dogs). They have never become sheep. Yes, they escaped the pollutions of the world for a time by learning the ways of Christ and reforming their actions. They knew the way of righteousness as a set of facts can be memorized. But they did not know Christ in their hearts. They were still pigs. And, when they return to the world, their latter end will be worse than the beginning.

This condition is illustrated by the man who was rid of the evil spirit in Matthew 12:43-45 - When the evil spirit returned to the man, he found his house "empty, swept, and garnished." Because of this, he found seven other spirits "more wicked than himself" to enter and dwell in the man. So, "the last state of that man is worse than the first." The problem occurred because the man experienced reformation without regeneration. His heart was swept, but it was also empty. He cleaned up his life, but he did not have the indwelling Christ.

MMD
The false Teachers might return to their vomit,
but much to YOUR chagrin
THEY WERE SAVED BEFORE they returned to their vomit.

Not very comforting is it?