Not By Works

[FranC]

James 2:14-20

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


1 John 2:3-4

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



James 1:22 - But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.


Hebrews 12:11 - Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Proverbs 12:1 - Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof [is] brutish.

2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Proverbs 15:32 - He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding


John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.

revelation 3:55 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


rev 3 :12 / 15-17
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:


Matthew 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Proverbs 24:16-18

16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:

18 Lest the Lord see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.

Hi NNM ,

I'm going to be leaving this thread since all we're doing here is repeating.

Wanted to say bye to you and let you know what a blessing it was to meet up with you.
I want to encourage you to continue in your walk and let your relationship with God be personal to you.
Let God talk to you when you read the New Testament.
Everyone here has their own opinion and not all of them are correct.

Stay close to God no matter what. HE will never leave you nor forsake you.
You are truly blessed...

Fran

 

[FranC]

I think the big problem is, as said before, That people do not understand what sanctification is, and what justification is.

Salvation is based on justification alone. If salvation can be lost. Then justification must be earned, period

Rewards, blessing, Chsastening, Lack of being blessed, and having rewards burned are a result of sanctification.

If I am justified, I have eternal life. And nothing can take that away from me.. If salvation can be lost. Then salvation is based on sanctification,. NOT justification. And is of works. Not grace.

Hi EG,

You understand what J and S is so I don't really know why you don't agree that works are necessary for sanctifiation, whether we feel like doing them out of love or not.

There's too much to cover here, we're repeating, this thread moves too fast, and I'm going to drop out.
It was nice to meet you. You're a good guy and maybe we'll be meeting up in other places.

All is good as long as we love our Lord and follow in His ways.
See you around...


Fran

 

[blue_ladybug]

True. Works don't produce salvation. Salvation is not gained through works, it is gained by grace through faith. IMO, faith is a work that God enables us with, so that we may believe in and have faith on Him. Faith is not of OUR own doing. Just my opinion..

And Dcon doesn't speak strangely. It only sounds strange to those who believe that we must do works to gain, and keep salvation.

because the strange way he speaks for awhile
i felt he was a liar and the truth is not in him

i thought he justifys sin

i thought he tries to say you can be the same creature and live in sin after being renewed in Jesus christ


but

after awhile and closer inspection
and a little conversation

hes just saying (to my understanding)

works dont produce salvation
and that is true

at its most basic form

 

[FranC]

No one has said we are not to do the works.....saved UNTO...not BY.....and Paul was clear....those who say one must have faith and then works to cap the deal peddle a false gospel with no power to save, one that is double cursed...as a matter of fact he calls them fools and bewitched!

Did you ever stop to think that maybe YOU have the false gospel since most churches disagree with you???

 

[FranC]

Amen to this.....and lest we forget...believers can and will have works of wood, hay and stubble mixed in with the gold, silver and precious stones....

You say AMEN TO THIS

For JESUS saying that trees that produce bad fruit will be burned?

INTERESTING.

 

[mailmandan]

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Hi NNM ,

I'm going to be leaving this thread since all we're doing here is repeating.

Wanted to say bye to you and let you know what a blessing it was to meet up with you.
I want to encourage you to continue in your walk and let your relationship with God be personal to you.
Let God talk to you when you read the New Testament.
Everyone here has their own opinion and not all of them are correct.

Stay close to God no matter what. HE will never leave you nor forsake you.
You are truly blessed...

Fran

well thank you
ive read it but i still see something new every time i reread any chapter

im buying a notebook this weekend to make my studies and findings and what God reveals to me more organized

i seem to forget as much as i remember sometimes

 

[blue_ladybug]

The same question could be applied to you. Why do you keep denying what the bible clearly says, about us being saved by grace, and not works? We are saved unto works, not BY them.. Not a single work that we do, will get us saved. Not a single work will keep us saved, and not a single work will get us into heaven.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe YOU have the false gospel since most churches disagree with you???

 

[FranC]

.

Hi Ariel,

You were asking about 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

I don't remember exactly why since I had to leave Yesterday.
I wonder if it had to do with eternal salvation?

If it did, these verses have nothing to do with it.

You should consider
Mathew 13:3-9
Mathew 13:20-21

Especially verses 20-21 where JESUS explains the parable of the sower.
Some seed fell on rocky places.
The man HEARS the word, receives it with JOY.
Yet, he has no firm root in himself,
BUT IS ONLY TEMPORARY,
and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word,
Immediately he FALLS AWAY.

Please note that it is JESUS saying this.
Salvation can be TEMPORARY.
A person Can FALL AWAY.

He also says that one can fall away because of the word.
There is much personal arguing on this thread and I do fear for new Christians reading along and how they might be affected.

As one reads through the N.T. it should be noted, by Jesus' words and also the other Writers, how they exhort us to good behavior and good works and how the beg us to hold fast and al the IF's that are spoken about and all the times Paul says to CONTINUE in the faith. This must surely mean that one could fall away.

I'd like to leave you with one final thought. I don't know if you've ever studied Church history. It's an interesting study.
The early theologians were the closest to Jesus and what they had to say should be heeded. Ignatius of Antioch knew John personally and studied with him. It's good to go back and read what THEY thought of different subjects.
Many changes have been made to Christianity in the last couple of hundred years.
Are they all right?

Fran
(if you wish to respond, please do it by PM)

 

[FranC]

FOR ARIEL

P.S.

Did you know that here is a dispute as to what 1 Corinthians is addressing?

Some theologians believe that it is addressing the rewards one may lose due to their works.
Others believe that what is being spoken of has more to do with how Teachers teach, since it was Paul who laid the foundation based on Christ, and that HOW they teach will be judged.

You could look this up if you're interested.

 

[Ariel82]

FOR ARIEL

P.S.

Did you know that here is a dispute as to what 1 Corinthians is addressing?

Some theologians believe that it is addressing the rewards one may lose due to their works.
Others believe that what is being spoken of has more to do with how Teachers teach, since it was Paul who laid the foundation based on Christ, and that HOW they teach will be judged.

You could look this up if you're interested.

How we live our lives is how we teach the world about God.

I have a big issue with many people who claim to,be Christian not taking any responsibility within the church because of the false idea of "i am not the preacher"

God calls all people to do good works and to learn to use our spiritual gifts to function as one united body in Christ.

 

[JohnTalmid]

This is a Big lesson hold on tight.

6"But we sailed from Philippi after the Festival of Unleavened Bread," plus five plus seven equals 35 right? That is 14 Nissan +7 days +5days travel time +7days trohas = I wana say second week of the next month or day 6 then you have to say Sabbath number 2 in Troas. 28 days in a lunar month and knowing how they count days according to what is written they where having a Sabbath meal together planning on leaving early in the morning on the first day and fellowshipping all together for encouragement before being seen off. You have to count from the beginning to find Sabbath or take it by "faith" ,(the same faith as Yeshua).

Hope this helped.

 

[Ariel82]

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

It has EVERYTHING to do with salvation.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Whuttt?

What does any of this gibberish have to do with salvation not being gained by works?

This is a Big lesson hold on tight.

6"But we sailed from Philippi after the Festival of Unleavened Bread," plus five plus seven equals 35 right? That is 14 Nissan +7 days +5days travel time +7days trohas = I wana say second week of the next month or day 6 then you have to say Sabbath number 2 in Troas. 28 days in a lunar month and knowing how they count days according to what is written they where having a Sabbath meal together planning on leaving early in the morning on the first day and fellowshipping all together for encouragement before being seen off. You have to count from the beginning to find Sabbath or take it by "faith" ,(the same faith as Yeshua).

Hope this helped.

 

[blue_ladybug]

You'll never convince her, Ariel.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

It has EVERYTHING to do with salvation.

 

[graceNpeace]

Did you ever stop to think that maybe YOU have the false gospel since most churches disagree with you???

Maybe there are churches who do believe what you say, maybe even a lot, but, they are apostate, since in order to preach a gospel of works they deny the saving work done by Jesus Christ on the cross.

Gal 3:1-9 3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[a]before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you[b] as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[c]
7 Therefore know that onlythose who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[d]
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

and,

Gal 3:10-14 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[e]
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[f]
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[g]
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[h]),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[Ariel82]

I studied this doctrine of falling away and believe it's tied to infant baptism and why some children continue in the faith after confirmation and why some fall away.

Confirmation classes are for 11-18 year olds mostly, but required to join the church as a functioning member.

Personally I don't believe water baptism saves anyone and you can baptize babies into the earthly Church family but only God accepts people into His heavenly family and adopts them by giving them the Holy Spirit.

So some who are baptized by men are not really part of the God's family at all. THAT is why they fall away.they never accepted Jesus as their Savior.

Falling away....

1 Corinthians 3
11For no one can lay a foundation other than...Jesus Christ
14If the work that anyone has built ..survives, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

****

If your foundation is in Christ Jesus, even if your works burn up...God will save you from the fire.

How can that NOT BE about eternal salvation?

 

[Ariel82]

Whuttt?

What does any of this gibberish have to do with salvation not being gained by works?

I posted something on another thread about the Sabbath being our rest in Christ...only thing I can figure..

 

[garee]

because the strange way he speaks for awhile
i felt he was a liar and the truth is not in him

i thought he justifys sin

i thought he tries to say you can be the same creature and live in sin after being renewed in Jesus christ


but

after awhile and closer inspection
and a little conversation

hes just saying (to my understanding)

works dont produce salvation
and that is true

at its most basic form

It becomes the matter of "whose" faith as the thing of men or the faith of God?

Yes, we are saved by works just not according to human faith the imaginations of ones own heart(dead). Christ’s works according to His faith alone saves.

Ask yourself what if some do not believe according to His faith, will it make the faith of God without effect?

Scripture informs us God forbid.

For what if some did not believe? “shall their unbelief”(no faith) make the faith of Godwithout effect?God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Rom 3:3

What if our faithful Creator could not work according to His own faith..

Some say God does not have or need faith. If so how would he work to create if he did not believe (exercise or work his faith) something would occur out of nothing. We must apply His faith properly so that others do not think it is of our self but is the fre gift of God according to His work of faith

1Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

 

[garee]

FOR ARIEL

P.S.

Did you know that here is a dispute as to what 1 Corinthians is addressing?

Some theologians believe that it is addressing the rewards one may lose due to their works.
Others believe that what is being spoken of has more to do with how Teachers teach, since it was Paul who laid the foundation based on Christ, and that HOW they teach will be judged.

You could look this up if you're interested.

Can't lose something that is ertenal called, eternal life. If a person claims they can, do they make the faith of God without effect.by having it in respect to their own selves? Would that not blaspheme the holy name by which we are called ?

The reward is the same for every person its called etenal life. They will not come into condemnation\. Chrsit took that upon His own self as a work of His faith or labor of His love