Not By Works
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I like your style, defame others before the have a chance to respond.
Works are irrelevant, so if you got assaulted by a brother you would forgive
them and forget about it? Or if a sister became a prostitute, no problems, there
heart was in the right place.
You do not know the kingdom if you cannot uphold Gods will and call evil evil
acts. Lawlessness has always been the enemy of the kingdom, but maybe one
day you will see. I fear the hatred felt against people in their past will destroy their
souls, and they will not know it.
Works are irrelevant, so if you got assaulted by a brother you would forgive
them and forget about it? Or if a sister became a prostitute, no problems, there
heart was in the right place.
You do not know the kingdom if you cannot uphold Gods will and call evil evil
acts. Lawlessness has always been the enemy of the kingdom, but maybe one
day you will see. I fear the hatred felt against people in their past will destroy their
souls, and they will not know it.
I am fascinated by peoples desire to find security in doctrines and not in communion with the Lord, or
learning to love and be a vessel of Gods gifts to others. It is like beliefs secure ones place and not
the Holy Spirit working in and through ones life.
In the kingdom of heaven, how would people who knew all the theory but none of the outworking be
of any use. Sinners are failed flawed people who continually get it wrong. How has belief made any
difference to them, or God would regard it with any significance.
learning to love and be a vessel of Gods gifts to others. It is like beliefs secure ones place and not
the Holy Spirit working in and through ones life.
In the kingdom of heaven, how would people who knew all the theory but none of the outworking be
of any use. Sinners are failed flawed people who continually get it wrong. How has belief made any
difference to them, or God would regard it with any significance.
Jesus chose us, because He knew we would choose Him.
Jesus is not going to chose people who will hate and reject Him, rebel and walk in sin.
Jesus chose us, because He knew we would be His chosen bride, a people purchased at
great price, who would appreciate His love and grace to us, who would roar in praise and
worship to the throne because He is worthy
Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!
Rev 5:12
Jesus is not going to chose people who will hate and reject Him, rebel and walk in sin.
Jesus chose us, because He knew we would be His chosen bride, a people purchased at
great price, who would appreciate His love and grace to us, who would roar in praise and
worship to the throne because He is worthy
Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!
Rev 5:12
N
this thread is more hostile and silly than it is helpful at this point .... heres a question for the cake takers (works earn salvation)
AND those who believe they have fire insurance... a lets sin get out of hell free card (faith without works)
if it dont apply let it fly
this aint for true lovers of God
if you have faith
which creates works in you
someone spikes your water with drugs
leaves you open to demonic influence, so much so you fall into fornication with a vile woman or man who offends you to the point you push them...
they fall crack their head and die
you go to run but not being sober lose your footing fall and die too (crazy scenerio i know i know)
where do you go?
heaven or hell
AND those who believe they have fire insurance... a lets sin get out of hell free card (faith without works)
if it dont apply let it fly
this aint for true lovers of God
if you have faith
which creates works in you
someone spikes your water with drugs
leaves you open to demonic influence, so much so you fall into fornication with a vile woman or man who offends you to the point you push them...
they fall crack their head and die
you go to run but not being sober lose your footing fall and die too (crazy scenerio i know i know)
where do you go?
heaven or hell
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I have seen the argument if people can lose salvation after gaining faith, is
that not making mans choice more powerful than Gods authority?
And the answer is no, because God himself has given us the choice.
The parable of the prodigal son is the son is free to leave.
All of Jesus's parables, peoples responses are theirs freely given and taken.
To walk in love is to know this freedom. God is calling us to be His people who
are like Him. To be like Him you have to love Him with all that you are, to become
one with Him in thought word and deed. This is not possible if you choose to leave,
because this very act testifies to ones choice and ones heart.
To know Gods heart and His objective is to know what salvation means.
Innate within it all, is the ability to love and choose freely how to express this.
Our King chose death to give us life.
Are we going to choose death(sin) so that then he will force us to accept life,
when that denies the very nature of salvation and love itself?
To those who doubt Jesus's words and heart spend time at the foot of the cross,
and wonder what drove Him there.
This is the key to all that follows.
that not making mans choice more powerful than Gods authority?
And the answer is no, because God himself has given us the choice.
The parable of the prodigal son is the son is free to leave.
All of Jesus's parables, peoples responses are theirs freely given and taken.
To walk in love is to know this freedom. God is calling us to be His people who
are like Him. To be like Him you have to love Him with all that you are, to become
one with Him in thought word and deed. This is not possible if you choose to leave,
because this very act testifies to ones choice and ones heart.
To know Gods heart and His objective is to know what salvation means.
Innate within it all, is the ability to love and choose freely how to express this.
Our King chose death to give us life.
Are we going to choose death(sin) so that then he will force us to accept life,
when that denies the very nature of salvation and love itself?
To those who doubt Jesus's words and heart spend time at the foot of the cross,
and wonder what drove Him there.
This is the key to all that follows.
You see Dcon,
here's your problem.
You've become like a parrot --- you just keep repeating the same stuff over and over again.
But do not supply any substance.
I felt it was important to say this...
Here's my post to which you're replying:
Originally Posted by FranC View Post
So you're answer is NO.
We are NOT to do works.
Then why did JESUS say this:
John 15:14-15 Amplified Bible (AMP)
14 You are my friends if you keep on doing what I command you.
Now read your reply to me.
I don't hear Jesus saying anything about salvation.
I don't believe He ever said that word once. Could you post if He did?
What He DID say was how we are to BEHAVE (haven't seen much good behavior here by a few)
And how we are to DO (which means works)
Mathew 5:2-10
Mathew 5:2-11
Mathew 6:48
Mathew 7:5
Mathew 7:21
Mathew 7.24
Mathew 15:11
Mathew 19:28
Mathew 22:21
Mathew 22:37-40
Mathew 25:35-36
Jesus said:
IF YOU KEEP ON DOING WHAT I COMMANDED YOU.
This is a command. Not a request.
It means if you don't do it.... Jesus will not be too pleased.
You should read those verses.
here's your problem.
You've become like a parrot --- you just keep repeating the same stuff over and over again.
But do not supply any substance.
I felt it was important to say this...
Here's my post to which you're replying:
Originally Posted by FranC View Post
So you're answer is NO.
We are NOT to do works.
Then why did JESUS say this:
John 15:14-15 Amplified Bible (AMP)
14 You are my friends if you keep on doing what I command you.
Now read your reply to me.
I don't hear Jesus saying anything about salvation.
I don't believe He ever said that word once. Could you post if He did?
What He DID say was how we are to BEHAVE (haven't seen much good behavior here by a few)
And how we are to DO (which means works)
Mathew 5:2-10
Mathew 5:2-11
Mathew 6:48
Mathew 7:5
Mathew 7:21
Mathew 7.24
Mathew 15:11
Mathew 19:28
Mathew 22:21
Mathew 22:37-40
Mathew 25:35-36
Jesus said:
IF YOU KEEP ON DOING WHAT I COMMANDED YOU.
This is a command. Not a request.
It means if you don't do it.... Jesus will not be too pleased.
You should read those verses.
I like your analogy.
Who is God and what is His judgement like?
Are we in love with Christ because we are going to heaven or because He is God and
His nature is to love in justice and righteousness?
Jesus asked us to pray
"Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"
We are always in the Fathers hands, and things could always go wrong.
Everything is about our daily walk in the Holy Spirit, because we only get to the
end of the walk one day at a time.
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
Matt 6:33-34
Who is God and what is His judgement like?
Are we in love with Christ because we are going to heaven or because He is God and
His nature is to love in justice and righteousness?
Jesus asked us to pray
"Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"
We are always in the Fathers hands, and things could always go wrong.
Everything is about our daily walk in the Holy Spirit, because we only get to the
end of the walk one day at a time.
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
Matt 6:33-34
Grace vs. works has been a debate for centuries. It’s not surprising that prideful man feels compelled to earn salvation on the basis of works, not by grace. The Council of Trent on Justification (Canon 12) states: "If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy [grace], which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence [faith] alone that justifies us, let him be anathema [cursed]." This infers that we merit grace and eternal life only through sacrificial works.
In Islam, the Muslim attains forgiveness through Allah's favor and works: "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward" (Surah 5:9). Only by good works outweighing bad works and by the will of Allah can a Muslim be forgiven his sins and gain access to his paradise. "Then those whose balance [of good deeds] is heavy, they will be successful. But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls; in hell will they abide" (Qur’an 23:102-103).
Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it (Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5). Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Paul never shunned hard work. He even referred to the work of the ministry. Paul experienced incredible visions, revelations, and special demonstrations of power as he worked hard in serving God. Yet he proclaimed, "But whatever I am now, it is all because God poured out his special favor [grace] on me...For I have worked harder than all the other apostles, yet it was not I but God who was working through me by his grace” (1 Corinthians 15:10).
In Islam, the Muslim attains forgiveness through Allah's favor and works: "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward" (Surah 5:9). Only by good works outweighing bad works and by the will of Allah can a Muslim be forgiven his sins and gain access to his paradise. "Then those whose balance [of good deeds] is heavy, they will be successful. But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls; in hell will they abide" (Qur’an 23:102-103).
Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it (Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5). Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Paul never shunned hard work. He even referred to the work of the ministry. Paul experienced incredible visions, revelations, and special demonstrations of power as he worked hard in serving God. Yet he proclaimed, "But whatever I am now, it is all because God poured out his special favor [grace] on me...For I have worked harder than all the other apostles, yet it was not I but God who was working through me by his grace” (1 Corinthians 15:10).
Well said mailmandan! ( sorry - couldn't rep you )
All religions - including the religion of Christianity ( as there is a religion like this that tries to mimic the life of Christ ) - are really manifesting that they are eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which has been set lose in this earth by Adam's transgression.
They are basing their life on what they do or don't do. They are attempting to establish their own righteousness by what they do or don't do. Good works are an example of this.
We see the "descriptions" in the words and actions of Jesus and in the epistles of what the true Christian life looks like when Christ's life and His fruit are being manifested. The religion of Christianity then takes these "descriptions" and tries to "dictate" to the believers the life of Christ or the fruit of the Spirit into being.
In essence they are trying to mimic or duplicate the life and fruit of Christ and at the same time "demanding" that others do the same thing or else they are not saved. The true Christian life is Christ Himself joined as one spirit with us manifesting His love, His grace, His life in and through us. It is His fruit - without Him we can do nothing.
All works-based - works-righteousness belief systems ( including the religion of Christianity ) have this as their core essence and it really nullifies the true grace of God from operating in our lives like it should.
This is the "why" behind when people say we must do "good works". That is what the fruit brings behind the work-for-salvation mindset and to maintain and create righteousness.
The reality is - as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror - we are transformed by the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ will manifest itself in the doing of good works as the fruit of being in union with Him.
We do good works because it is a fruit of being in union with Christ. Preach and teach the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and Christians will have the proper nutrients to walk out what already is within them - which is Christ in us - the hope of glory.
All religions - including the religion of Christianity ( as there is a religion like this that tries to mimic the life of Christ ) - are really manifesting that they are eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which has been set lose in this earth by Adam's transgression.
They are basing their life on what they do or don't do. They are attempting to establish their own righteousness by what they do or don't do. Good works are an example of this.
We see the "descriptions" in the words and actions of Jesus and in the epistles of what the true Christian life looks like when Christ's life and His fruit are being manifested. The religion of Christianity then takes these "descriptions" and tries to "dictate" to the believers the life of Christ or the fruit of the Spirit into being.
In essence they are trying to mimic or duplicate the life and fruit of Christ and at the same time "demanding" that others do the same thing or else they are not saved. The true Christian life is Christ Himself joined as one spirit with us manifesting His love, His grace, His life in and through us. It is His fruit - without Him we can do nothing.
All works-based - works-righteousness belief systems ( including the religion of Christianity ) have this as their core essence and it really nullifies the true grace of God from operating in our lives like it should.
This is the "why" behind when people say we must do "good works". That is what the fruit brings behind the work-for-salvation mindset and to maintain and create righteousness.
The reality is - as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror - we are transformed by the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ will manifest itself in the doing of good works as the fruit of being in union with Him.
We do good works because it is a fruit of being in union with Christ. Preach and teach the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and Christians will have the proper nutrients to walk out what already is within them - which is Christ in us - the hope of glory.
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A
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
John 15:16
I chose you .... so that you might bear fruit.
We are chosen because we will bear fruit, not because we will fail and be
a disaster.
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
1 Cor 1:27
We are chosen to shame the wise, the weak to shame the strong
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
Eph 1:4
We are chosen to be holy and blameless.
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
James 1:18
We are the firstfruits, His success in the world of men.
John 15:16
I chose you .... so that you might bear fruit.
We are chosen because we will bear fruit, not because we will fail and be
a disaster.
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
1 Cor 1:27
We are chosen to shame the wise, the weak to shame the strong
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
Eph 1:4
We are chosen to be holy and blameless.
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
James 1:18
We are the firstfruits, His success in the world of men.
A
Many Catholics will admit that they hope to be saved by living a good life. They seek to obey the commandments, participate in the sacraments, go to church, do penance and give alms, recite prayers and so on, in order to obtain salvation. In it's official writings, the Catholic Church teaches that faith is important; but it also insists on the necessity of good works to merit eternal life. Please read carefully the following quotations from the Council of Trent on Justification:
Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them, or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema.
Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.
Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.
Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.
Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.
Official Roman Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake only. Something more is required. You must keep yourself saved by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is the Roman Catholic version of salvation by faith (their version of faith) and works.
Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them, or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema.
Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.
Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.
Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.
Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.
Official Roman Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake only. Something more is required. You must keep yourself saved by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is the Roman Catholic version of salvation by faith (their version of faith) and works.