What A Sovereign God Cannot Do....

[trofimus]

Context is important. Did Augustine write that in support of the RCC teaching on grace or to refute the RCC teaching on grace?

I would contend that grace is not given in measure but in whole. The RCC teaches that grace is received through the sacraments and not in full.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

"For or against RCC" was not an issue back then. Church was forming and with many various independent centers in that time (Alexandria, Rome, Constantinopol, Ephesus etc).

But if you wish I can look for the place, I read it in some of his books I have at home.

 

[trofimus]

If we are forced to love it is not love.Love is a choice.

God never forces anybody. He only gives or takes away His grace.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

[/COLOR]God elects (chooses) who will be saved apart from any merit on the part of man. It is his decision and his alone. If it is by obedience, then it is no longer by grace, but by works. This is contrary to scripture. Obedience = merit. Salvation is unmerited. Grace is unmerited. If you say grace is given to those who obey, then you have added human merit to it and given people a right to boast of their own works. Faith/belief is not a work of man, but of God. Those who will obey are those who have been drawn by God via the Gospel message. It is effectual only for those that are drawn by God. Jesus says in John 6: All that the Father gives to me will come to me, and, no one can come to me unless the Father who has sent me draws him. Therefore, not everyone is drawn by the Father, or all would be saved by Jesus' own admission. No one is willfully submissive to God. It is only by grace that one will submit to God. Reformed theology doesn't deny the truths you present here. You deny them by claiming God is in the driver's seat, yet make the claim it is by obedience that God grants grace. That is contradictory and contrary to scripture.

God's grace is unmerited . . . Grace is not given because we believe. God gives favor to ALL men because ALL men have sinned and come short of the glory of God - that is why it is called unmerited favor - man does not deserve it. God offers salvation because of his unmerited favor toward us - God offers salvation even though we do not deserve it . . . Salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ . .that is the gospel. God does ask, demand, command that ALL have to believe in Jesus Christ to receive salvation. Is faith/belief in Christ a work? It is the work that endures to everlasting life - that is the wage for doing the work of God - the work that endures to eternal life - Believe on him that God has sent. I am not to work for things that perish . . . but I am to work for things that endure unto eternal life. - That is the context of John 6. Jesus had just fed 5,000 people and they still ask (v30) "What sign will you show then that we may see and believe? What do you work?" Really, what sign? As we read further, "I am the bread of life: he that comes to me shall never hunger; and he that believes on me shall never thirst." Our work that leads to eternal life is to believe in the bread of life, Jesus Christ. (v40) "And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone of you which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: . . . ." The will of God is that everyone believes in his Son for everlasting life - Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4) - For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. (Titus 2:11). I am not saying that ALL men will be saved - but the offer of salvation is available for ALL men to be saved.

I have never said that our faith/belief is not the result of God drawing us - God draws us to his Son via his word. If God is drawing me but yet I don't believe what I hear - I am resisting. If God has elected me, I have no choice but to believe what I hear.

Paul says: For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. If those that are in the flesh cannot please God or submit to his law, then it is only by regeneration or being born again of the Spirit that one can even begin to submit to God. This requires faith which is gifted by grace, and is not of our own doing.

Yes, to be born of the Spirit requires faith - faith in whom? Grace is not gifted - salvation is gifted because of God's favor toward man even while we were yet sinners - didn't deserve anything from God but yet he sent his Son to pay for our sins - to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. He sent his word so that we would have the opportunity to hear and believe. When we believe in his Son whom he sent - we are born of the Spirit and inherit eternal life.

The Gospel call is available to all who hear it, but not all are responsive to it. Only those who are drawn by the Father will submit to Christ? Jesus makes this clear in John 6. You are right in that salvation is available to both Jew and Gentile. We don't deny that. The Gospel will not be accepted by every single person, because the carnal mind cannot understand the things of God. It requires a new heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone and it requires effectual grace and faith given only by God. This isn't something we can muster up ourselves. The idolatry comes from those who make the claim it is "unfair" or "unjust" if God doesn't give everyone the same chance to be saved and that him choosing some and not others is "unfair". So people give him human attributes and decide for him what is fair and just. Not everyone is even given the Gospel call. Thousands, if not millions throughout history never heard the Gospel or were given a chance to be saved by it. Is that fair? Is that just? We don't want true justice from God, because that means all should be condemned and sentenced to hell. But God, in his grace, has chosen to save some, not for us, but for his own glory and purpose. It's not about us, it's about him. To claim the Gospel is not effectual for all but only those who obey muster up belief on their own is an attack on it's purpose. This is an attack on the finished work of Christ. Not all of mankind is redeemed or was meant to be redeemed. Jesus says he lays his life down for the sheep. His death on the cross was entirely effectual for those he died for. His name is Jesus because he will save his people from their sins. Those who are given to him by the Father will come to him. No one can come to him unless the Father draws them. This is what Jesus himself taught. He isn't hoping some will come to him and is disappointed when they don't. He already knows who are his. This is true from the Arminian perspective as well if you believe God knew all things before he even created all things. There is a set number of people who will be saved and a set number of people who won't. Those that are saved are those that were chosen to be, apart from any merit on their part.

You have warped it already. You claim obedience merits grace. This is contrary to scripture. The word of God is rejected because the world is condemned already. It takes intervention by God to save someone. The person who responds has done nothing themselves to make this happen. It was God who saved them. God who opened their eyes. God who raised them to spiritual life. God who gave them a heart of flesh. God who drew them. God who gifted them grace.

You are correct the gospel will NOT be accepted by ALL men, but it is there laid out in God's word, freely given to all. God teaches us through his word but yet we will never understand it when we read it? At some point, we would have to understand in order to repent of our sinful ways and turn to God. As stated before - grace is available to all. Idolatry is serving other gods . . . not claiming something is fair or unfair. God does give everyone the same chance to be saved. God himself through his word, gives himself human attributes. It is a figure of speech. In the same context of John 6 - v44,45 "No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets 'And they shall be ALL taught of God'. EVERY MAN therefore that has heard and has learned of the Father comes to me."

You have it backwards. People believe because they are gifted grace, not gifted grace because they believe. Man does not merit grace from God. It is freely given to those he foreknew and predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. You are contradicting yourself here. You said first that obedience merits grace and leads to salvation. The bible says salvation by grace through faith, being the gift of God, leads to obedience. See the reversal? The "whosoever" are the elect. There is no way around this truth without twisting scripture and rewriting it. You are also still making a fallacious argument. No one WILL call out to God unless God has worked in them to change their nature. We are BY NATURE children of wrath before God calls us to salvation. NONE seek after God and ALL have turned aside to go their own way and ALL are born DEAD in trespasses and sins. The carnal mind CANNOT submit to God's law or please God. It takes spiritual rebirth and that rebirth is the supernatural changing of a person's nature and nothing they can ever hope, or even care to do on their own.

Grace is freely given to all men. Those he foreknew and predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son are those who believed in the only begotten Son of God. Salvation is offered by God's unmerited favor to ALL through faith in his Son . . . salvation is a gift from God. Whosoever is whosoever . . . whosoever . . .

People will call out to God when they get sick and tired of being sick and tired. He will answer their call. . . ALL who call upon him. "NONE seek after God" . . . why does Jesus tell us to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness if we are not able to seek God . . . Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. . . . The word of God is God's way of drawing us . . . all will hear . . . God sets before us ALL death and life . . . we are urged to choose life.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The problem is no one can belive without the spirit of God, and to all those who the spirit of God is given to regenerate their hearts all of them will believe.

You see, you think it's possible that God regenerates someone's heart and then they don't believe the gospel, when it's clear from scripture all that are given to Christ none will be lost, the giving is the holy spirit working in their lives to change their heart towards God, and once that happens, no one can reject Christ.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare at this time his righteousness: that he might be just and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus. Romans 3:21-26

We are justified freely by God's unmerited favor because all have sinned . . . this opportunity is given to all and upon all them that believe . . . everything rest upon Christ work and believing in the work of Christ through God's longsuffering dealing with each and every individual person with his mercy and compassion. He is just and the justifier of those who believe.

 

[Marano]

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare at this time his righteousness: that he might be just and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus. Romans 3:21-26

We are justified freely by God's unmerited favor because all have sinned . . . this opportunity is given to all and upon all them that believe . . . everything rest upon Christ work and believing in the work of Christ through God's longsuffering dealing with each and every individual person with his mercy and compassion. He is just and the justifier of those who believe.

Yes, we are justified by faith in Christ, and that faith is not of ourselves it's a gif of God: [h=1]Ephesians 2:8New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,


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[peacefulbeliever]

Exactly, so what makes you think you will yourself to God freely? And since you do think you willed yourself to God, what did the decision consist of? In something so small as choosing a blue shirt over a red shirt to wear that day, you thought it out. You weighed the pros and cons. Any time you look for a new home, you think it out. You weigh the pros and cons. For something as big as freely willing yourself to God, surely a memory you have, what were your pros, what were your cons, and what was the key in that decision? Your free will. Show me how that worked.

I believed (I determined within myself) that what God presented to me through his word was true. I was fully persuaded that when I believed, God would wash me white as snow, that God would forgive me of all my sins, that God would birth his Spirit within me. I used my intellect to decide what I heard was true and this initiated God to work within me.

I was nine years old when I sat in church hearing what was being preached. I was living in incest (brother) and I knew in my heart that I needed Jesus to cleanse me - I was dirty through no fault of my own - I needed to be clean. I knew that God would accomplish that for me through my belief in his Son. I knew I needed God.

Did God open my eyes through the preaching of his word? Did God draw me? I would say yes - To accept this gift of salvation, did I have to first believe in his Son before I was born of the Spirit? I would say yes - you would say no . . . . stalmate!

What pros and cons are there in that decision? Would it remove me from the situation? Nope. Would it remove the filth I felt? Would it cleanse me and make me whole? Would it enable me to endure my life? Would it enable God to be my strength and my sufficiency?

 

[kaylagrl]

God never forces anybody. He only gives or takes away His grace.

Eek we agree on certain things, but on certain details... And those details are a deal breaker I think. I just cant get around what the Bible says.

 

[trofimus]

Eek we agree on certain things, but on certain details... And those details are a deal breaker I think. I just cant get around what the Bible says.

We must accept everything what the Bible says.... both things pleasant and unpleasant.

I am trying to find a way in which this is possible. Some kind of combination of the first church, reformation and of The best world view seems to be the most suitable to me.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Yes, we are justified by faith in Christ, and that faith is not of ourselves it's a gif of God: Ephesians 2:8New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

We are justified by faith (belief) in Christ . . . for by grace or because of unmerited favor, you are saved (how?) through (by) faith (faith/belief in what or whom?) . . . and that not of yourselves (salvation doesn't come through you); it is the gift of God.

We just read and comprehend differently. You say - "we are justified by faith in Christ and that faith is not of ourselves it is a gift of God" I don't see where faith is the gift of God. Let's have a little English class and diagram the sentence:

For by grace (parenthetical phrase) you (subject) are saved (predicate) through faith (parenthetical phrase); it is the gift of God. So - You are saved because of God's unmerited favor through or by way of faith/belief. It (salvation) is the gift of God.

 

[notuptome]

God never forces anybody. He only gives or takes away His grace.

That is in direct conflict with the reformed belief of irresistible grace.

God never takes away His grace but gives to those who will receive it freely. On this the reformers were correct in their opposition to the RCC.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[trofimus]

That is in direct conflict with the reformed belief of irresistible grace.

God never takes away His grace but gives to those who will receive it freely. On this the reformers were correct in their opposition to the RCC.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Irresistible grace is not forcing you to choose something. It is an ability given to you (to believe or to be born again, depends on the context), I think.

 

[preacher4truth]

If we are forced to love it is not love.Love is a choice.

Love this oft' quipped fallacy as if the Reformed who believe all of Scripture, embrace election and reject decisional regeneration were "forced" to love God.

But the other side is the fallacy that "they" came to God out of genuine love for Him.

[video=youtube;-Uqu0wXKbGI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uqu0wXKbGI[/video]

Funny how Scripture denies this that they came to Him out of genuine love, but they're not going to let that stop them.

They are special, they came to God out of true genuine love for Him. You know, while they were lost, in sin, hostile toward God, unpleasing to Him, and at enmity with Him. Instead of the Ephesians 2:4 "But God" following all the former indictment they've replaced it with "But man" and more personally "But I."

 

[preacher4truth]

I just cant get around what the Bible says.

Wait. What? You've been trying to do exactly that all along, denying election, and other Biblical doctrines while following a man named Wesley.

Goodness sake...

 

[kaylagrl]

We must accept everything what the Bible says.... both things pleasant and unpleasant.

I am trying to find a way in which this is possible. Some kind of combination of the first church, reformation and of The best world view seems to be the most suitable to me.

Oh I accept all the Bible says, I just dont accept what you believe its says. Sorry.

 

[kaylagrl]

Wait. What? You've been trying to do exactly that all along, denying election, and other Biblical doctrines while following a man named Wesley.

Goodness sake...

Nope,answered that a long,long way back. I believe in election,I just dont believe in election the way you do.

 

[UnderGrace]

Just curious, if you have the time to respond, how do you believe in election.

I am fine with a link.

Nope,answered that a long,long way back. I believe in election,I just dont believe in election the way you do.

 

[UnderGrace]

I agree faith is not the gift, the gift is salvation. Very important to read this correctly.

We are justified by faith (belief) in Christ . . . for by grace or because of unmerited favor, you are saved (how?) through (by) faith (faith/belief in what or whom?) . . . and that not of yourselves (salvation doesn't come through you); it is the gift of God.

We just read and comprehend differently. You say - "we are justified by faith in Christ and that faith is not of ourselves it is a gift of God" I don't see where faith is the gift of God. Let's have a little English class and diagram the sentence:

For by grace (parenthetical phrase) you (subject) are saved (predicate) through faith (parenthetical phrase); it is the gift of God. So - You are saved because of God's unmerited favor through or by way of faith/belief. It (salvation) is the gift of God.

 

[kaylagrl]

Just curious, if you have the time to respond, how do you believe in election.

I am fine with a link.

Those who believe are elect no link needed.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Those who believe are elect no link needed.

Someone asked Jesus how could they do the works of God, to which Jesus replied, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in the One He sent.' So, to truly believe in the Christ is solely by the power of God.

 

[kaylagrl]

Someone asked Jesus how could they do the works of God, to which Jesus replied, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in the One He sent.' So, to truly believe in the Christ is solely by the power of God.

Dont think I disagree...