What A Sovereign God Cannot Do....

[peacefulbeliever]

I get out of bed, open up the closet, and choose the rust color shirt, the turquoises, or the purple shirt. Perfectly free to choice any of them. There won't be a skin-tight tiger shirt where have my breast will pop out. There won't be a see-thru shirt where my nipples are the starts to the show. I'm not wearing a shirt so ripped up it shows my stomach and chest. I can choose, but picking those shirts are outside my will.

Why would anyone choose something that is not in their closet to begin with?

As for God, my will is directly covered under sinner. So all my actions align with sinful. I was born with it, didn't decide it. So, I can choose to cheat, choose to be haughty, can do gossip very well, but I'm not choosing God and I'm not willing him to save me. Without him choosing me, it wouldn't dawn on me that I'd want him to save me. That's the difference.

When I was a sinner, I still had the choice within my will to do good or to do evil. There are plenty of people who choose to donate to charities, who stop along the road to help someone who is stranded, who have high moral standards but they have not confessed Jesus Christ as Lord in order to receive salvation. I did not "will" for God to save me - I obeyed God, I heard the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, believed in his only begotten Son, confessed him as Lord, believed God raised him from the dead, God kept his promise to me upon my obedience and birthed within me the new creation. God in Christ dwells in me because God fulfilled his promise that by his grace through my faith, not my works, I would be saved.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

And those He raises to spiritual life He does so through His will and not theirs. Ever see a dead man refuse to be raised? The bones in Ezekiel 37, did they refuse to be raised to life? Did Lazarus refuse the Christ and say "Naw, I'm good", and go back to the tomb?

He raises to life from the dead those who had no will to exercise. They were dead in transgressions and sins. Dead folk have no will.

What the Christ did naturally to Lazarus He does so to those who are spiritually dead. When He calls them, they come. Period. End of story.

No. I didn't say it, the bible does.

Look at it like this. You come upon a traffic accident and you see the EMS giving someone there CPR. In this CPR, they give them chest compressions, they no longer do mouth-to-mouth, and administer IV meds to stimulate their heart. Did they receive CPR? Absolutely. However, they did not hold their hands out to accept it or hold them out and say 'no thanks'. They were dead and had someone else help them in their dead state.

That's how God works. We were dead and unable to respond to the gospel. It takes God to unilaterally move and impart Spiritual life unto us. We received it, even though we didn't have our hands out to receive this regeneration. He imparts life to whom He wills. We don't exercise our wills, He does.

You are mixing being raised from the dead, the DEAD as in NO breath, the resurrection - with being dead in trespasses and sins. I agree that I have no part in my resurrection from the DEAD because being physically dead, I don't have a will, I have no mental capacity at all. Being dead in trespasses and sins - I am still a breathing person who can choose right from wrong - I may choose wrong more than I choose right but I mentally know good and evil. I have the capacity to be presented the gospel of Jesus Christ, I have the capacity to be obedient and believe what I hear . . . when I believe what I hear, God spiritually restores me, quickens me, makes me alive IN Christ. God does that - I don't. Why did God go through the trouble of presenting us the gospel for us to believe if we were unable to believe in it in the first place?

I bet that person the EMT's gave CPR to was very thankful toward the EMT's for saving his life but hopefully, that person gave God the glory for the work that was performed through the EMT's.

And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us who believe, according to the working of his mighty power which he worked in (by or through) Christ when he raised him from the dead and set him at his own right hand in the heavenlies.
We have to believe what is presented to us through the gospel - in the only name under heaven whereby we can be saved.

 

[1ofthem]

Your going to have to warn me when the BS is so think I need waders.

Hope you got your boots on...cause it sounds like you're already in it deep...lol

 

[trofimus]

When I was a sinner, I still had the choice within my will to do good or to do evil. There are plenty of people who choose to donate to charities, who stop along the road to help someone who is stranded, who have high moral standards

"If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children..." Mt 7:11

1. They were evil.
2. Still, they could do some good works.

 

[preacher4truth]

You are mixing being raised from the dead, the DEAD as in NO breath, the resurrection - with being dead in trespasses and sins.

The physical and spiritual deaths give the same picture. Also, we only experience the former because of sin. Lazarus is an example of the physical death conveying also our need to be raised spiritually. This concept is carried out through the epistles when speaking of our being dead in sin.

Why did God go through the trouble of presenting us the gospel for us to believe if we were unable to believe in it in the first place?

Let's use your argument here: Why did God give the 10 commandments? Why did He command to repent? Why did He command to believe when it is not in us in to accomplish any of them?

Because then we see our utter depravity, utter dependence upon Him, and total inability to do His high commands. It causes the elect to call out to Him to have mercy and save them - they realize the good news and believe the Gospel.

People are making the common mistake that they can do something they don't have the ability to do. Again, we can only believe by the power of God; Ephesians 1:19, thus salvation isn't via mans choice because man cannot choose himself to believe, that belief comes from God.

 

[ForthAngel]

So when the Bible says in Luke,


If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


What does this mean?

The word is the same in Romans 9. Both words mean to hate/detest. But when Jesus uses the word, we have to look at the rest of scripture. He obviously was making a comparison between the love for him in comparison to anything else. If the choice is him or our parents, or our wife/husband, or our children, etc., then he is the one we choose. He gets priority. Jesus contradicts himself if anyone thinks he literally means hate them. Seems to be using hyperbole to make a point or contrast or comparison.

Compare that from Luke to this from Matthew to understand what he means:

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Compare Romans 9 to:

Malachi 1
1 This is a divine revelation. The Lord spoke his word to Israel through Malachi.

2 “I loved you,” says the Lord.

“But you ask, ‘How did you love us?’

“Wasn’t Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “I loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I hated. I turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the jackals in the desert.

4 “The descendants of Esau may say, ‘We have been beaten down, but we will rebuild the ruins.’

“Yet, this is what the Lord of Armies says: They may rebuild, but I will tear it down. They will be called ‘the Wicked Land’ and ‘the people with whom the Lord is always angry.’ 5 You will see these things with your own eyes and say, ‘Even outside the borders of Israel the Lord is great.’

Then consider these from Proverbs and Psalms

Proverbs 6
16 There are six things that the Lord hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers.

Psalm 11
5 The Lord tests the righteous,
but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.
6 Let him rain coals on the wicked;
fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup.


Some translations render this as "hates with a passion" in Psalm 11.

Context.

 

[oldethennew]

well said,

we're to hate the actions of the 'carnal-life', not the people, but the bondage and preference
for the 'world' over serving, obeying, worshipping, Jesus Christ...

 

[ForthAngel]

elect - 1) choose by voting; 2) choose to do something; decide . . . Does God vote and decide on who will become a part of his family? Or is his family part of his elect because of obedience - BELIEVE in Jesus Christ? How does obedience to God - Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of holy Spirit, in any way making God not the cause of our salvation? The prerequisite to receiving the holy Spirit; i.e. being born again of the Spirit, is faith/belief in Jesus Christ. That is totally God's plan and purpose for each individual. I don't deny election but in the way we get to being part of the elect. God has offered salvation to EVERYONE not just a select few . . For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men . . God has plans and purposes which will not be thwarted - the fact that he offered salvation to all who believe is plainly stated . . . those who do not accept that offer are condemned, again plainly stated. God is not a tyrant, nor a dictator. Salvation is a gift from God through or by way of Jesus Christ - that is all credited to God. The new birth is all credited to God's power to create in one who believes a new creation, one which partakes of the divine nature - no man can do that.

God elects (chooses) who will be saved apart from any merit on the part of man. It is his decision and his alone. If it is by obedience, then it is no longer by grace, but by works. This is contrary to scripture. Obedience = merit. Salvation is unmerited. Grace is unmerited. If you say grace is given to those who obey, then you have added human merit to it and given people a right to boast of their own works. Faith/belief is not a work of man, but of God. Those who will obey are those who have been drawn by God via the Gospel message. It is effectual only for those that are drawn by God. Jesus says in John 6: All that the Father gives to me will come to me, and, no one can come to me unless the Father who has sent me draws him. Therefore, not everyone is drawn by the Father, or all would be saved by Jesus' own admission.

God is in the driver's seat . . . biblical truth is that we are sealed with the holy Spirit AFTER we have heard and believed the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation. God set forth that truth throughout scripture that man must trust in, believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Believing in Jesus Christ - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other given among men, whereby we must be saved - is being submissive to God.

No one is willfully submissive to God. It is only by grace that one will submit to God. Reformed theology doesn't deny the truths you present here. You deny them by claiming God is in the driver's seat, yet make the claim it is by obedience that God grants grace. That is contradictory and contrary to scripture. Paul says: For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. If those that are in the flesh cannot please God or submit to his law, then it is only by regeneration or being born again of the Spirit that one can even begin to submit to God. This requires faith which is gifted by grace, and is not of our own doing.

God is no respecter of persons - he does not discriminate - salvation is available to all - Jew and Gentile alike. But salvation will not be accepted by all for all will not believe in Jesus Christ. I see no idolatry nor creating a god fashioned in the likeness of man. I see a God who loved mankind enough to has offer salvation through faith in his Son; a way for man to be born again and to have everlasting life.

The Gospel call is available to all who hear it, but not all are responsive to it. Only those who are drawn by the Father will submit to Christ in faith and come to him. Jesus makes this clear in John 6. You are right in that salvation is available to both Jew and Gentile. We don't deny that. The Gospel will not be accepted by every single person, because the carnal mind cannot understand the things of God. It requires a new heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone and it requires effectual grace and faith given only by God. This isn't something we can muster up ourselves. The idolatry comes from those who make the claim it is "unfair" or "unjust" if God doesn't give everyone the same chance to be saved and that him choosing some and not others is "unfair". So people give him human attributes and decide for him what is fair and just. Not everyone is even given the Gospel call. Thousands, if not millions throughout history never heard the Gospel or were given a chance to be saved by it. Is that fair? Is that just? We don't want true justice from God, because that means all should be condemned and sentenced to hell. But God, in his grace, has chosen to save some, not for us, but for his own glory and purpose. It's not about us, it's about him.

How in the world is it an attack on the gospel? The whole of the gospel is God sending his only begotten Son to redeem mankind. We are to believe in him in order to gain everlasting life. He is the fountain of living waters and we are to drink. We are to confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead in order to be saved. The cross has worked for ALL, the resurrection has worked for ALL - Does it work for those who do not believe it; do not have faith?

To claim the Gospel is not effectual for all but only those who obey muster up belief on their own is an attack on it's purpose. This is an attack on the finished work of Christ. Not all of mankind is redeemed or was meant to be redeemed. Jesus says he lays his life down for the sheep. His death on the cross was entirely effectual for those he died for. His name is Jesus because he will save his people from their sins. Those who are given to him by the Father will come to him. No one can come to him unless the Father draws them. This is what Jesus himself taught. He isn't hoping some will come to him and is disappointed when they don't. He already knows who are his. This is true from the Arminian perspective as well if you believe God knew all things before he even created all things. There is a set number of people who will be saved and a set number of people who won't. Those that are saved are those that were chosen to be, apart from any merit on their part.

Nope scripture does not have to be rewritten . . . Those who believe are part of the elect. The Father draws through his word - if the word of God is believed then faith is born . . . if the word of God is rejected - man remains dead and in sin.

Please let me know where I have rewritten or warped anything.

You have warped it already. You claim obedience merits grace. This is contrary to scripture. The word of God is rejected because the world is condemned already. It takes intervention by God to save someone. The person who responds has done nothing themselves to make this happen. It was God who saved them. God who opened their eyes. God who raised them to spiritual life. God who gave them a heart of flesh. God who drew them. God who gifted them grace.

I have not worshipped any other gods in order to commit idolatry. I do not in any worship man. I did not demand grace from God - God gives grace to those who believe in his only begotten Son - For by grace are you saved THROUGH FAITH and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Salvation is by grace through - not by any deeds we have done - it is a gift of God. Whereas you believe in "irresistable" grace - man cannot resist the call to salvation - Mine is more of a "conditional" faith - wherein man must believe and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Mine is offered to ALL - the "whosoever" believes; For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Yours - I elect you and you and you to be saved - but you or you or you cannot be saved no matter how many times you call out to men for I have not elected you for salvation. Sort of makes God a respecter of persons to me.

You have it backwards. People believe because they are gifted grace, not gifted grace because they believe. Man does not merit grace from God. It is freely given to those he foreknew and predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. You are contradicting yourself here. You said first that obedience merits grace and leads to salvation. The bible says salvation by grace through faith, being the gift of God, leads to obedience. See the reversal? The "whosoever" are the elect. There is no way around this truth without twisting scripture and rewriting it. You are also still making a fallacious argument. No one WILL call out to God unless God has worked in them to change their nature. We are BY NATURE children of wrath before God calls us to salvation. NONE seek after God and ALL have turned aside to go their own way and ALL are born DEAD in trespasses and sins. The carnal mind CANNOT submit to God's law or please God. It takes spiritual rebirth and that rebirth is the supernatural changing of a person's nature and nothing they can ever hope, or even care to do on their own.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You're slowly becoming a Calvinist!

And that is the exact look on my face at this time!!! lol . . .

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Yet no ones will is free, note Jeremiah 24:7, John 8:35ff.

Also, mental capacity to make a choice does not cause mans salvation; John 1:13; Romans 9:16; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:1ff. We are not saved by human means, via mental capacity sister. There is no Scripture to support that view.

Salvation is via a supernatural act of God, the faith given to believe is by the power that raised Christ from the dead; Ephesians 1:19, and is external, coming from Christ and His Word, and from God; Romans 10:17; Romans 12:3. It is not inherent or innate mental capacity - it must come from God alone. Therefore salvation is 100% from God, it does not come from him that wills &c, but from God.

I agree the new birth, being born again is an act of God, I just differ in the way we receive that gift. The plan of salvation is of God . . . it is totally 100% God's way or the highway. How do we receive the salvation that God offers . . . by BELIEVING - that is the ONLY way one receives the salvation God offers - that gift of salvation is offered to everyone - the grace of God brings salvation to all men - but one can receive that salvation only one way - by believing. To believe is a verb . . . an word connoting action . . . an action which requires the use of mental capacity.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I'm going to quote you, Peace, so what you said stays on this post, even after you respond to what I ask. That way we don't have to keep going back to remember what was said beforehand.
Peacefulbeliever: Nope, I still believe that an individual has a the will (mental capacity) to make a choice and that choice is no coerced; i.e. free.

Okay, then by "will" you take the definition of desire. Whatever we desire immensely we can make happen? Am I getting your definition accurately? (Because, if I am, at least we're both using the same definition.)

First a look at "will" from Strong's: 1 Timothy 2:4 who will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth - thelo: 1) to will, have in mind, intend; A. to be resolved or determined, to purpose; B. to desire, to wish; C. to love 1. to like to do a thing, be fond of doing; D. to take delight in, have pleasure

Now Webster's: will: noun - 1) the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action; verb - intend, desire or wish to happen

I take the definition of "will" to be highlighted above. As for "desire" - as hard as I may desire a new car . . . I can not will that car into being. If I desire to wear a red shirt but I don't have a red shirt - I can't will that red shirt into being.

 

[Marano]

I agree the new birth, being born again is an act of God, I just differ in the way we receive that gift. The plan of salvation is of God . . . it is totally 100% God's way or the highway. How do we receive the salvation that God offers . . . by BELIEVING - that is the ONLY way one receives the salvation God offers - that gift of salvation is offered to everyone - the grace of God brings salvation to all men - but one can receive that salvation only one way - by believing. To believe is a verb . . . an word connoting action . . . an action which requires the use of mental capacity.

The problem is no one can belive without the spirit of God, and to all those who the spirit of God is given to regenerate their hearts all of them will believe.

You see, you think it's possible that God regenerates someone's heart and then they don't believe the gospel, when it's clear from scripture all that are given to Christ none will be lost, the giving is the holy spirit working in their lives to change their heart towards God, and once that happens, no one can reject Christ.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Peacefulbeliever: Let's see: One that believes shall not perish but have everlasting life. One who does not believe is condemned already.
The condemnation, which is laid upon those who do not believe, comes because those who do not believe loved darkness rather than light and their deeds are evil. Those who do not believe, do evil and love doing the evil and therefore, do not want to believe and walk in the light because the deeds they love doing will be reproved.
Those who believe and do the truth come to the light, their works are shown and their works are energized, produced by God.

What is wrought by God are those deeds that are brought to light. Those deeds that are brought to light are done by those who believe - those who believe are born of the Spirit. God ONLY works with those who have been born again of the Spirit . . . God is Spirit and communicates with that new creation he creates within an individual once they believe - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Close. Again. God deals in people not things. Just like he didn't predestined a plan, he predestined people. In like kind, he doesn't light up deeds. He lights up people.

Now which of those people hiding in the dark chose God of their own free will?

God did predestinate a purpose and a plan. That salvation would come through the Messiah. He predestined people according to his purpose and plan - those that believe in the Messiah would be saved. That is how those people are "lit up" and accordingly their works are "lit up". Is the gift of salvation something God offers to an individual to accept or reject? Or is the gift of salvation offered with the demand - you MUST and you WILL take it because I will MAKE you? Is there a stipulation to receive salvation? And if there is a stipulation (obedience) then something has to be done to receive said offer . . . the stipulation (obedience) is ONE must BELIEVE in Jesus Christ.

All of those people hiding in the dark are offered salvation . . . so ANY of those individuals by their own free will can choose to believe. They are condemned because they chose not to believe.

 

[preacher4truth]

I agree the new birth, being born again is an act of God, I just differ in the way we receive that gift. The plan of salvation is of God . . . it is totally 100% God's way or the highway. How do we receive the salvation that God offers . . . by BELIEVING - that is the ONLY way one receives the salvation God offers - that gift of salvation is offered to everyone - the grace of God brings salvation to all men - but one can receive that salvation only one way - by believing. To believe is a verb . . . an word connoting action . . . an action which requires the use of mental capacity.

I understand it is by BELIEVING. But Scripture says BELIEVING comes from God. Again; Ephesians 1:19. I take it by you using CAPS to say BELIEVING you feel you were able to do that on your own by some choice. God's Word denies that. We believe by the power of God, not by innate ability.

 

[oldethennew]

I agree the new birth, being born again is an act of God, I just differ in the way we receive that gift. The plan of salvation is of God . . . it is totally 100% God's way or the highway. How do we receive the salvation that God offers . . . by BELIEVING - that is the ONLY way one receives the salvation God offers - that gift of salvation is offered to everyone - the grace of God brings salvation to all men - but one can receive that salvation only one way - by believing. To believe is a verb . . . an word connoting action . . . an action which requires the use of mental capacity.
====================================================================

(Belief is KEY), like it is written, 'Abraham believed God'...
(Faith is also KEY), for we cannot get it on our own, for it is the Gift of God'...

like Paul tells us, 'there is none righteous, no, not one'.

so, it would seem that there really in a prevalent under-neath common-thread-here -
rejoice in this brothers and sisters, for it's all about God's Love, manifested...

 

[oldethennew]

The problem is no one can belive without the spirit of God, and to all those who the spirit of God is given to regenerate their hearts all of them will believe.

You see, you think it's possible that God regenerates someone's heart and then they don't believe the gospel, when it's clear from scripture all that are given to Christ none will be lost, the giving is the holy spirit working in their lives to change their heart towards God, and once that happens, no one can reject Christ.

==============================================================

a good post Marano,

what about the 'great-falling-away'???

 

[Marano]

==============================================================

a good post Marano,

what about the 'great-falling-away'???

There's the parable of the soils, not every heart is good soil, the seed that didn't fall on good soil is bound to eventually be fruitless, and I believe that is linked to any falling away in history that's already happened or that is yet to come.

True believers bear fruit of their belief and show that they've truly repented the way they live their lives, that's why I pray to God that the fruit of the spirit is in my life everyday.

 

[maxwel]

And, I too, consider you my Brother in Christ. Even if you only have one eye.

I love you my Brother. Please tell me if these one eye jokes get too old. I mean nothing by it.

It's ok.

I just assume you were predestined to do this.

 

[preacher4truth]

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[2 Cor. 4:4]

Notice, it says Satan has blinded, past tense, already a done deal, the minds of unbelievers. Now, the question remains, when were unbelievers blinded? Were they blinded after they came to 'the age of accountability', as the non-Cals(most do) aver? I don't think you can find scriptural proof to support it. So, then were they blinded in Adam, as when he fell, we fell in him? I think so. It was through Satan that Adam fell, and we fell in Adam, and were born blinded by Satan.

Good point. He likes to also come along when they've heard the Word of God and however he does it steal it away from them. Yep. He's active in the children of disobedience.

 

[oldethennew]

There's the parable of the soils, not every heart is good soil, the seed that didn't fall on good soil is bound to eventually be fruitless, and I believe that is linked to any falling away in history that's already happened or that is yet to come.

True believers bear fruit of their belief and show that they've truly repented the way they live their lives, that's why I pray to God that the fruit of the spirit is in my life everyday.

===================================================

your POST has 'nothing to do with, 'the great Falling-Away' in scripture, marano,
one can't 'fall-away' from
something that they were never a part-of, that's why it is called, 'THE GREAT FALLING AWAY'!

nuff said, ...