Not By Works

[Ariel82]

As a side note, Ariel wants to defend dc and say he is just a miss-understood believer
who actually believes normal, traditional faith and salvation.

It is literally impossible to do this and then claim not accepting future sin forgiven is
to apostate every other belief of the Christian faith.

Wesley called future sin forgiven theology as a license to sin.

For Wesley, the early Reformers’ view of the substitutionary atonement leads to the unavoidable conclusion that Christ’s righteousness is imputed to the believer’s past, present, and future sins. When James Hervey asked, “If [Christ] was our substitute as to penal sufferings, why not as to justifying obedience?” Wesley tartly responded, “This is not expressly asserted [in the scriptures].” In addition, he expressly asserted that “the metaphysical doctrine of Im*puted Righteousness leads not to repentance but to licentiousness” (Letter to James Hervey, Oct. 15, 1756)

Wesley did not want people to believe that the blood of Christ saved them so they could then go live like the devil. This is obviously a genuine and valid concern. Reformation theology teaches that believers are chosen and called by God, and they will become righteous through Christ’s sanctifying work after having been declared righteous because of Christ (imputed justification). For the Calvinist, a believer will grow naturally because they are new creatures. Under the substitution/imputation model of the atonement, licentious living could never occur because the elect are naturally molded into the image of God after their salvation has been assured. On the other hand, Wesley’s satisfaction model, in an effort to avoid antinomianism, required that the believer produce sanctified works in order to be assured of salvation.

Sabbatismos Ministries: Finding Our Rest in Christ - John Wesley on the Atonement

This dispute between Wesley and others summarises the very positions being put
here today. It is also why it is more of a choice of position rather than a defined
right and wrong issue.

Yeah Wesley taught that justification is by Faith alone also.

He was against antinominism and so is Dcon and EG and others.

I have posted many sermons from Wesley and He is clear that only a SAVING faith justifies. I can even repost this.

What I have issues with is you just can't figure out what eternal security is about and then project your inability to understand to other issues such as justification by Faith alone.

 

[dcontroversal]

dc - until you can see both sides of this argument, which have historical foundations,
then as I said there is little to talk about.

Just making bland statements and not actually addressing the definition of lawlessness,
demonstrates my problem.

I do not reject any scriptures, rather it is the interpretation and context we disagree on.
And all these position rely on various key assumptions. Are you able to be honest at this
level. You claim to have studied in college theology, so can you at least be this honest?

I have been honest......and you have argued every step of the way, pushing a sinless, working for dogma where salvation can be lost, you have consistently accused us of saying we live in sin or promote sin, you have rejected ALL scriptures given in context by numerous people that contradict your stance and have refused to acknowledge the truth presented......it is you that needs to start being honest and open to instruction............end of story dude!

 

[Ariel82]

See this Peter Jens is a strawmen and does not reflect anything that I believe.

.

Here is the problem. If one becomes an apostate, blasphemer, there is no acceptance,
but for you it appears you are destined still for heaven.

For me there is only the walk or being lost.

And claiming you are saved/chosen no matter how you behave after the point of salvation,
is a license to do what you think is right in your own eyes..

I would say that many (the apostate) don't walk with God at all (thus NEVER destined for heaven), but you ignore that because you don't seem able to actually listen to what is being said if it doesn't match your straw man.

 

[Ariel82]

The doctrine of future sins forgiven, is the concept between now and eternity all the
sinful acts you will perform are forgiven now in the present, at the point of coming to
faith in Christ. The dependency on forgiveness in present time is faith and repentance.
So yes the cross forgives all sin repentented of in the present tense so is future sin forgiven
from when the act of sacrifice in time was made. But this is not our future sin forgiven as
until it is done it does not exist, so cannot be forgiven, and in faith will never happen.
But out of these future sin forgiven concept comes a lot of heresy and evil.


Repentance and confession of sin is the common experience of most, which is interesting
compare to often the declarations about changing ones mind. Those who talked most
strongly about no need for specific repentance of specific sins seems to a left or gone
silent. A lot did express repentance of sin was a one off event at conversion and not specific,
but how truthful that is you are casting doubt on. I would hope people now accept biblical
repentance, but I have previously found to my shock a lot did not.
Maybe the argument is being won, the Holy Spirit is convicting people in regard to the truth.

All I can say is what people have expressed in the past.
To me if everyone accepts the sermon on the mount as Christs eternal words, amen.

What I do know is when you put these points up to vote the vote got split 50/50.
So I do have little confidence in you proclamations. I do wonder why you make them, as
you are not the final authority or judge of what can and cannot be expressed lol.

And as far as identifying groups, that is irrelevant, because they exist, how people feel
wedded to them is a different question. But you regard raising these points as lying.
I call that delusion, and denying what people have openly expressed in the past.

You want so badly that people conform to your views, you project them everywhere, even
when clearly they are just trying to keep you happy, lol.

What I find delusional is that you think folks would lie about what they believe to keep me happy.

I don't "project my views" on other people, that would be your log you are seeing,

What happens is that I actually talk and listen to folks and we discuss what the Holy Spirit has revealed to us.

I think G777 talks funny, but we can have a decent conversation if he stops cutting and pasting from his favorite preachers. However we don't agree on certain topics, like the Bible promising physical health to everyone.

Dcon and I don't agree on everything either.

I am sure that if I took the time to talk to anyone on this forum, I would find at least one or more things about the Bible that I don't agree with.

However this thread is about justification by Faith in Jesus Christ alone, not by works.

This should be common ground for all of God's children.

Stephen talked about peacemakers.

You are not even trying to be a peacemaker. You don't even see the common ground, because you just want to pick a fight.

Your "future sins forgiven" straw man doctrine is false.

You can continue erecting strawmen or you could actually read and listen to what the real people are saying instead of your fantasy land mental creations.

 

[PeterJens]

Wesley did not accept security like people hold to here

*******************

eternal security - Perseverance - John Wesley

And the apostle himself, in his Second Epistle to Timothy, mentions on of these two as irrecoverably lost. "Alexander (says he) did me much evil: the Lord shall reward him according to his works." II Tim. 4:14 Therefore one who is endued with the faith that purifies the heart, that produces a good conscience, may nevertheless so fall from God as to perish everlastingly.

"But how can this be reconciled with the words of our Lord: 'He that believeth shall be saved'?"

Do you think these words mean, "He that believes" at this moment "Shall" certainly and inevitably "be saved?" If this interpretation be good, then, by all the rules of speech, the other part of the sentence must mean, "He" that does "not believe" at this moment, "shall" certainly and inevitably "be damned." Therefore that interpretation cannot be good. The plan meaning, then, of the whole sentence is: "He that believeth (if he continue in the faith) shall be saved; he that believeth not (if he continue in unbelief) shall be damned."

"But does not Christ say elsewhere, 'He that believeth hath everlasting life?' (John 3:36 and, 'He that believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life?'" Verse 24

*******************

It turns out that I actually hold very similar view to Wesley. He is certainly more
of a hero of mine than I originally recognised.

 

[PeterJens]

Your "future sins forgiven" straw man doctrine is false.

Ariel - Do you know the dispute between Whitfield and Wesley was about?

You say you are a methodist yet I suspect your theology is different.
Your doctrine of security does hinge around future sins forgiven, which is
why Whitefield and Wesley fell out.

So this battle is very old. Until you can be honest at this level, I doubt
you could see what I am saying

 

[Ariel82]

What kind of faith do people actually have?

1. ""that God is; that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him;" and that he is to be sought by glorifying him as God, by giving him thanks for all things, and by a careful practice of moral virtue, of justice, mercy, and truth, toward their fellow creatures. "

2. believes, not only that there is a wise and powerful God, gracious to reward, and just to punish; but also, that Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ, the Saviour of the world. So we find him declaring, in express terms, "I know Thee who Thou art; the Holy One of God" ....God was made manifest in the flesh; that he will "tread all enemies under his feet;" and that "all Scripture was given by inspiration of God."

3. believed on him (Jesus) as to "leave all and follow him;" although they had then power to work miracles, to "heal all manner of sickness, and all manner of disease;" yea, they had then "power and authority over all devils;" and, which is beyond all this, were sent by their Master to "preach the kingdom of God."

*****

Yet you can believe all of the above and still not have a saving faith.

The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 1 - Salvation By Faith

Most people have one of the three types listed above. Very few have the saving Faith listed below:

Without saving Faith there is NO ETERNAL SECURITY.

Saving faith is defined as

Christian faith is then, not only an assent to the whole gospel of Christ, but also a full reliance on the blood of Christ; a trust in the merits of his life, death, and resurrection; a recumbency upon him as our atonement and our life, as given for us, and living in us; and, in consequence hereof, a closing with him, and cleaving to him, as our "wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption," or, in one word, our salvation..

The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 1 - Salvation By Faith

.[/B]

1. Faith in Jesus, so very unlike the heathen faith listed above.

2. Faith that is in our hearts and not just in our minds contrast that to the demonic faith described above.

3. Faith in Jesus death and resurrection,contrast that to the faith the Apostles had in Jesus before He was nailed to the cross.

Some people don't have a saving faith in Jesus, even though they attend church for years.

 

[Ariel82]

What kind of faith do people actually have?

1. ""that God is; that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him;" and that he is to be sought by glorifying him as God, by giving him thanks for all things, and by a careful practice of moral virtue, of justice, mercy, and truth, toward their fellow creatures. "

2. believes, not only that there is a wise and powerful God, gracious to reward, and just to punish; but also, that Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ, the Saviour of the world. So we find him declaring, in express terms, "I know Thee who Thou art; the Holy One of God" ....God was made manifest in the flesh; that he will "tread all enemies under his feet;" and that "all Scripture was given by inspiration of God."

3. believed on him (Jesus) as to "leave all and follow him;" although they had then power to work miracles, to "heal all manner of sickness, and all manner of disease;" yea, they had then "power and authority over all devils;" and, which is beyond all this, were sent by their Master to "preach the kingdom of God."

*****

Yet you can believe all of the above and still not have a saving faith.

The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 1 - Salvation By Faith

If someone described their faith in the terms above , peterjens,would you think that they have a saving faith?

Ariel - Do you know the dispute between Whitfield and Wesley was about?

You say you are a methodist yet I suspect your theology is different.
Your doctrine of security does hinge around future sins forgiven, which is
why Whitefield and Wesley fell out.

So this battle is very old. Until you can be honest at this level, I doubt
you could see what I am saying

This thread isn't about eternal security, it's about justification by Faith and not works. Which Wesley clearly preaches against works based salvationist.

We can discuss eternal security of you insist. However, when will you realize that you are making war with Dcon because you have not clearly stated that justification is by Faith alone?

"Until you can be honest at this level, I doubt
you could see what I am saying"

 

[Grace777x70]

I think G777 talks funny, but we can have a decent conversation if he stops cutting and pasting from his favorite preachers. However we don't agree on certain topics, like the Bible promising physical health to everyone.
QUOTE]

Ariel - I am usually posting what I have written about a subject when a subject comes up. If someone talks about Hebrews 10:26 and willful sinning - I post what I have said about that subject so - it could show up many times as this just becomes a circus with the same people saying the same things over again.

This way - the readers of the threads have a viewpoint to look at and listen to the Holy Spirit within then to reveal the work of Christ to them.

If I post something that another person has written so that others can look at that particular viewpoint - I give the source just like you do. It is true that we don't agree on some areas but no one person agrees with everything anyone says about subjects.

I hope not to agree with everything I think I know now in 5 years as the Holy Spirit reveals more of the work of the love and grace of Christ Himself to me. I love repenting! It is a major blessing from our loving Father.

 

[Ariel82]

I am just being honest G777, I skip reading your long cut and pastes, but enjoy when we have actual dialogue....even when we disagree, lol.

 

[Ariel82]

Here is from the united Methodist church official website...not sure if anyone cares but these words quoted highlights what I believe and agree with..

Do United Methodists believe “once saved, always saved” or can we “lose our salvation”? - The United Methodist Church

.

Arminius had concluded that if a person had fallen from grace and into a state of spiritual death after having had an experience of conversion (whether that was understood to have occurred through baptism or to be heightened or awakened in a personal experience or affirmation later in life) there was no further hope for salvation. Wesley rejected this. Both experience and scripture told him otherwise. He addressed this at greatest length in his sermon, "A Call to Backsliders."

In this sermon Wesley tackles the Arminian argument on the grounds of both scripture and experience.

Wesley notes that the penalty of eternal separation from God with no hope of return applies in scripture only in two cases-either, as in Hebrews 6 and 10, to persons who willfully, publically and explicitly reject Jesus as Savior after having confessed him, or, as in the gospels, to those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by declaring that the works of Jesus were the works of the Evil one. He then turns the question to his hearers: "Now, which of you has thus fallen away? Which of you has thus 'crucified the Son of God afresh?' Not one: Nor has one of you thus 'put him to an open shame.'" The penalty of there being no more sacrifice for sins thus cannot apply to the vast majority of those who have indeed fallen into spiritual decline, and perhaps close to or even into spiritual death, but have not in fact committed these atrocities.

The first paragraph of Wesley's argument from experience is worth repeating in its entirely (emphasis added). Acting as his own interviewer, Wesley writes:

Do you know, have you seen, any instance of persons who found redemption in the blood of Jesus, and afterwards fell away, and yet were restored, -- 'renewed again to repentance?' " Yea, verily; and not one, or an hundred only, but, I am persuaded, several thousands. In every place where the arm of the Lord has been revealed, and many sinners converted to God, there are several found who "turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them." For a great part of these "it had been better never to have known the way of righteousness." It only increases their damnation, seeing they die in their sins. But others there are who "look unto him they have pierced, and mourn," refusing to be comforted. And, sooner or later, he surely lifts up the light of his countenance upon them; he strengthens the hands that hang down, and confirms the feeble knees; he teaches them again to say, "My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit rejoiceth in God my Saviour." Innumerable are the instances of this kind, of those who had fallen, but now stand upright. Indeed, it is so far from being an uncommon thing for a believer to fall and be restored, that it is rather uncommon to find any believers who are not conscious of having been backsliders from God, in a higher or lower degree, and perhaps more than once, before they were established in faith.

Does this mean that it is impossible for persons to fall so far from grace once received that they will never end up in Hell? By no means. Hell is surely the potential destination for all who are not living into "that holiness without which no one can see God" (Hebrews 12:14, a phrase frequently quoted in the sermons and journals of John Wesley). His point is that despite whatever the condition of our souls may be, God is always calling, always wooing, always pleading, and always working and leaving the way open for our faith to be renewed, our hearts to be quickened by grace, and our souls to be brought to life and health again.

In our Wesleyan-Arminian theology, as in all mainstream Christian theology, salvation still isn't ours to possess. It is always and only God who saves. In that sense we cannot "lose" salvation. But we can "fall away" from it. Or to use another metaphor, we can move so far from the saving streams of God's love and power that we parch and spiritually die. The consistent focus of Wesley's teaching, however, is far less the warning about the possibility of such death and thus ultimately Hell (though he does not shrink from offering such warnings upon occasion, even as noted in the quote above), but rather upon the consistent, unfailing grace of the God revealed in Scripture and in the person of Jesus Christ, the God who is abounding in mercy and steadfast love.

******

"God is out to save us, one and all." Though we have no faith we can articulate, God is out to save us, one and all. Though our faith may grow dim and our works disorderly, God is out to save us, one and all. Though we may lose our way and do terrible things to others, God is out to save us, one and all. And though for some God's efforts to save may still leave them in spiritual death and Hell, God is out to save us, one and all.

Once saved, always saved? No. But always, always called to the fullness of God's salvation. And always, always loved.
.

"God is out to save us, One and all"

Amen to that.

 

[Ariel82]

Let me take this on a personal level which you actually want me to do.
You do not accept g7, but are happy to embrace dc and eg though they openly support
all g7 holds to. Do you not see a total contradiction here which undermines your rosy painted
picture?

In my discussions with various people, I always found it odd when they denied real faith, but
seemed to believe the same doctrines I did. What I discovered in the hierarchy of beliefs one
would stand out that changes everything.

So JW's Christ is created. SDA have a different view of the cross and law, HG future sin forgiven,
rcc, sacremental view of redemption etc.

We have a lot in common, but fellowship stops at these points because it changes who Christ is
and what salvation and our walk is.

Now in the HG view of faith, this is the culmination of WOF, prosperity + wealth, Latter reign all mixed
together. People accept various sub sets of the whole set of outlooks, and some are in flux.

What I have learnt is Preterism and Total Inability doctrines which are illuminating. Equally imputed
righteousness or transferred sin and righteousness, are interesting concepts and exploration of the
different views very educational.

Now I stand where I stand, and that is good enough for me. God bless you, and I trust the Lord
is blessing you in your strategies at discernment etc.

By the way insult, tell me my outlooks and points of view, my failures and my successes, they are
all a blessing to me, because I can learn from it all, and I would much rather have total honesty
than hiding under a shell. I will not take offence, because the love Christ has place in me is greater
than the world, Amen, Halleluyah. God bless.

I try my best not to intentionally insult anyone.

What we (even G777) find as common ground is that we all believe that justification is by Faith alone and not by works.

Where our theology differs after that can be vast.

For example I don't believe EG and I hold the same eschatological stance.

However what unites us is a common respect and love for God and His truth.

I see them as brothers and sisters seeking God's will and His wisdom, even if I don't always agree with them.

At one time I thought you a brother but you have stated today you would rather be an enemy. Or did I misread your statement to Dcon?

 

[Ariel82]

Okay let's break this down because you like to cut and paste this a lot and it causes more misunderstanding than help in quite a few times I have seen you post it.

So G777, what do you really mean?

I will try and summarize what I think you mean and you can correct me if I get it wrong.

The work of Christ for righteousness and the complete forgiveness of sins to those of us who are in Christ is a stumbling block to the self-righteous and humanistic belief system. .

that statement so far is biblical.....

.

It is offensive to us because it exposes their own self-righteousness and unbelief in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection. .

okay why the "us"? Who are you alluding that believe in a "self righteous humanistic belief system"? It sounds a lot like the faith of a heathen described by Wesley. Would you agree or disagree with that assessment?

.

Knowing that we are completely forgiven because of Christ's sacrifice makes us want to run to the Father for grace to walk free of sinning because we know that they are forgiven. .

maybe, but what if those who want to hide their sins or don't repent of their sins at all but boast of his much money and power they get by living lives of sin?

.

That does not make us want to go out and sin all we want as the carnal/religious mind thinks and accuses others of wanting to do.
.

I would only agree if the "US" refers to only born again believers sealed with the Holy Spirit. Otherwise it would not be true if said to a whole church filled with nominal Christians who aren't really saved but play church.

.

It does the complete opposite. Jesus said "He who is forgiven much - loves much." It wants us to grow in the grace and knowledge of God and this is pleasing to Him. We have a new nature now. .

again you are assuming you are talking to new born again believers. Which would be true but some folks arent born again. What would you say to them?

.

We are a new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. .

you saying it doesn't make it true. Only the Holy Spirit can truly seal anyone.

.

Living by the flesh does not stop making us a new creation in Christ. It makes us deceived by sin and distorts our view of the Lord's love and grace towards us , others and ourselves and will bring some sort of destruction/death in this life on earth. .

never being chastened by God shows you aren't really saved and will end up in Hell.

.

Take up shooting heroin in our arms and the reality of this truth will be evident quickly. .

why would you encourage someone to do that?

.

As we learn to walk by the spirit instead of the flesh - then we experience God's kind of life in our lives. .

is that the goal? Or should the goal also be to shine God's light into the rest of the world and bring glory to God?

.

I have found the very same thing happening in my life. The more I see Christ and what He has done - and the more I agree with His work ( confess - means to say the same thing ) - the more He becomes manifested in my life and the things of the flesh just have fallen off like dead leaves on a branch.
.

I don't see how that works. God convicts me of my sins. I repent a,d confess that I am wrong.then he shows me a better way...I don't "confess" a better way. You are using words funky again.

.

Transformation is really the emerging new man that is in Christ being manifested in our bodies while we are here on this earth.

This transformation of what already is in us in Christ in our new creation ( It is not called a "new evolution" ) can be seen by man as our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ's work for us and in us. Rom. 12:2 .

Transformation is learning self control and tearing down the spiritual lies we believed in before and learning God's truth and walking with Him. Part of that truth is who we are but that is not the whole of it. God also teaches about His world and His plan on for our lives and His church.

.

We are simply "being" who we already are when we "put on Christ".

The new man in Christ is like the invisible man - when he put clothes on, people could then see him. We put on Christ and people see the new man in Christ manifested and God gets glorified.
.

yeah still sounds like you are making Jesus into a suit of clothes. I believe we "put on Christ" we are putting on the spiritual armor God gave us and Christ's righteousness is our breast plate.

.

This all happens by grace through faith in what Christ has already done and we participate in it with Him for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He will be faithful to us. Phil. 2:13 .

yep God is faithful..

.

We are transformed by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18 What do you see when you look into a mirror? We are joined as one spirit with the Lord. 1 Cor. 6:17 .

again our own spirits are different from the Holy Spirit. When we look in the mirror, we see who we should be if there were no sin or death in the world.

.

It's in knowing our "union" with the Lord as one and in "communing" with the Lord because of this union where the real Christian life is lived and it all starts knowing that Jesus has taken away the sin of the world and that "in Him" we have redemption - the forgiveness of sins.

What is meant by our "union" with God is that we seek to do His will. Some people have twisted this to mean they have God's creative power and authority and that would be false.

 

[Grace777x70]

Okay let's break this down because you like to cut and paste this a lot and it causes more misunderstanding than help in quite a few times I have seen you post it.

So G777, what do you really mean?

I will try and summarize what I think you mean and you can correct me if I get it wrong.


that statement so far is biblical.....

It is offensive to us because it exposes their own self-righteousness and unbelief in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection. .

. okay why the "us"? Who are you alluding that believe in a "self righteous humanistic belief system"? It sounds a lot like the faith of a heathen described by Wesley. Would you agree or disagree with that assessment?

The "us" is any one who believes in the self-righteousness.

. maybe, but what if those who want to hide their sins or don't repent of their sins at all but boast of his much money and power they get by living lives of sin?

That does not make us want to go out and sin all we want as the carnal/religious mind thinks and accuses others of wanting to do.
.

. I would only agree if the "US" refers to only born again believers sealed with the Holy Spirit. Otherwise it would not be true if said to a whole church filled with nominal Christians who aren't really saved but play church.

Yes the "us" are the true believers that Christ is in and they have a true knowledge of what Christ has done for us by His work.

It does the complete opposite. Jesus said "He who is forgiven much - loves much." It wants us to grow in the grace and knowledge of God and this is pleasing to Him. We have a new nature now. .

. again you are assuming you are talking to new born again believers. Which would be true but some folks arent born again. What would you say to them?

Believe in Christ

We are a new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

. you saying it doesn't make it true. Only the Holy Spirit can truly seal anyone.

Read Ephesians 4:24 and that is what makes it true.

Ephesians 4:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.



. never being chastened by God shows you aren't really saved and will end up in Hell


Take up shooting heroin in our arms and the reality of this truth will be evident quickly. .

. why would you encourage someone to do that?

I am not encouraging anyone to do that.... Where would you get such a foolish thought that I am telling people to take up shooting heroin?

( this in one area I have a hard time conversing with you - you say things that are way out of whack from what is really being said - but maybe it's the venue of the internet that causes this? )

As we learn to walk by the spirit instead of the flesh - then we experience God's kind of life in our lives. .

. is that the goal? Or should the goal also be to shine God's light into the rest of the world and bring glory to God?

If we walk by the spirit then people will see the light of Christ shining and this brings glory to God. This is the same thing.

. I don't see how that works. God convicts me of my sins. I repent a,d confess that I am wrong.then he shows me a better way...I don't "confess" a better way. You are using words funky again.

Transformation is really the emerging new man that is in Christ being manifested in our bodies while we are here on this earth.

This transformation of what already is in us in Christ in our new creation ( It is not called a "new evolution") can be seen by man as our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ's work for us and in us. Rom. 12:2 .


Transformation is learning self control and tearing down the spiritual lies we believed in before and learning God's truth and walking with Him. Part of that truth is who we are but that is not the whole of it. God also teaches about His world and His plan on for our lives and His church.

Transformation is clearly seen in 2 Cor. 3:17-18 and Rom. 12:2 - it is by beholding the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror and the Holy spirit transforms us and thus our minds become renewed to the truth of Christ and all that He ahs done. From there we walk by the spirit.

We are simply "being" who we already are when we "put on Christ".

The new man in Christ is like the invisible man - when he put clothes on, people could then see him. We put on Christ and people see the new man in Christ manifested and God gets glorified.

. yeah still sounds like you are making Jesus into a suit of clothes. I believe we "put on Christ" we are putting on the spiritual armor God gave us and Christ's righteousness is our breast plate.

I have repeatedly showed that the Greek word for "put on Christ " is enduo and it means to "put something on" and it is used in scripture as in putting on clothes - which the armor of God is a great example of.

. yep God is faithful..

. again our own spirits are different from the Holy Spirit. When we look in the mirror, we see who we should be if there were no sin or death in the world.


It's in knowing our "union" with the Lord as one and in "communing" with the Lord because of this union where the real Christian life is lived and it all starts knowing that Jesus has taken away the sin of the world and that "in Him" we have redemption - the forgiveness of sins.

What is meant by our "union" with God is that we seek to do His will. Some people have twisted this to mean they have God's creative power and authority and that would be false.

Our "union" means that we are joined as one spirit with the Lord. It is in our new man in Christ where Christ dwells by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor. 6:17

I have answered the questions you had. The rest are just your personal observations.

I first put in green what I originally said and then I answered your question in underneath your question in brown,

 

[Ariel82]

I have answered the questions you had. The rest are just your personal observations.

I first put in green what I originally said and then I answered your question in underneath your question in brown,

This post is just confusing with the color changes,, lol

You missed a color change this should be brown..

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( this in one area I have a hard time conversing with you - you say things that are way out of whack from what is really being said - but maybe it's the venue of the internet that causes this? ).

I repeat what you said and how easy it is to misread via internet forums.

Perhaps you could make the effort to clarify what you mean when you make that statement.

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Take up shooting heroin in our arms and the reality of this truth will be evident quickly..

 

[Ariel82]

G777,


So to clarify, when you say phrases like "put on Christ" you mean putting on spiritual armor or the truths of Christ's imputed righteousness or that His blood washes away sins?

When you say "look in the mirror" you refer to seeing who God will make you after you are glorified...wait I think you and Dcon believe God has already made your spirit this new creation?

What is the difference between the glorified you and the current you besides these bodies?

 

[dcontroversal]

G777,


So to clarify, when you say phrases like "put on Christ" you mean putting on spiritual armor or the truths of Christ's imputed righteousness or that His blood washes away sins?

When you say "look in the mirror" you refer to seeing who God will make you after you are glorified...wait I think you and Dcon believe God has already made your spirit this new creation?

What is the difference between the glorified you and the current you besides these bodies?

I think a lot of people miss the fact that we must view it the way God views it....verb tense and from God's perspective he sees everything as a done deal.....Our salvation, justification, glorification etc. in the eyes of God are a completed action, a done deal, a finished creation even though we have to deal with being bound by time and allowing our lives to play out and come to completion.......

 

[PeterJens]

I try my best not to intentionally insult anyone.
What we (even G777) find as common ground is that we all believe that justification is by Faith alone and not by works.
Where our theology differs after that can be vast.
For example I don't believe EG and I hold the same eschatological stance.
However what unites us is a common respect and love for God and His truth.
I see them as brothers and sisters seeking God's will and His wisdom, even if I don't always agree with them.
At one time I thought you a brother but you have stated today you would rather be an enemy. Or did I misread your statement to Dcon?

I have never made someone my enemy. It has rather been the other way around.
An example of this me making simple statements of faith and then finding myself accused
of insult, slander, lying, sin, needing to repent. I would ask about what and nothing ever
really came of it.

I asked questions, tried to understand and was told extreme stuff like I did not understand
them, did not know anything about them etc. So in the end I just say and make my points.

People either engage honestly about what is lawlessness and what is having a moral code or
not. I find your denial of this obvious dodging, side stepping, antagonism non sensical.

I cannot respect people who behave like this or that they know my Lord. These are basic life
points. An anarchist has no problems saying they do not follow any rules or authority.
A legalist has no problems saying they have rules. A follower of Jesus has no problem saying
they follow the commandments of Jesus. So why is it these individuals have problems being
honest and open on this one issue.

This is about walking in the light, and real respect. I lose it from those who behave as I have
seen day after day. You also play along as if it is all one big joke. But the subject is very serious.

So unless you can be honest, I do not know your objectives or morality. It is just grand standing.
But I expect little else now.

What I find illustrative is the lack of recognition ideas build one upon another. If you accept you
have no choice in salvation, then you can make a case that it can never be lost. Not difficult.

If salvation involves co-operation and a real relationship then choice is always involved else free
will and ability to choose has disappeared. Whitfield and Wesley argued this exact points.

 

[Grace777x70]

G777,


So to clarify, when you say phrases like "put on Christ" you mean putting on spiritual armor or the truths of Christ's imputed righteousness or that His blood washes away sins?

When you say "look in the mirror" you refer to seeing who God will make you after you are glorified...wait I think you and Dcon believe God has already made your spirit this new creation?

What is the difference between the glorified you and the current you besides these bodies?

I mean this below as Ephesians talks about. The new man which has been created in righteousness and holiness is a done deal so therefore - this new man in Christ looks like this below. When the new man in Christ is manifesting his/her true self in the Lord - it will show in this type of behavior.

Ephesians 4:24-32 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.

[SUP]26 [/SUP] BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,

[SUP]27 [/SUP] and do not give the devil an opportunity.

[SUP]28 [/SUP] He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need.

[SUP]29 [/SUP] Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.

[SUP]30 [/SUP] Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

[SUP]31 [/SUP] Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

[SUP]32 [/SUP] Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.



Of course God has made this new man in Christ the new creation. 2 Cor. 5:17


2 Cor. 3:17-18 shows how we are transformed by beholding the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. We see Christ for who he is and what He has done.

When we see Christ - we see our true selves in the Lord. The heavenly dynamic is we are transformed by what we behold, look at.

The striped sticks at the water trough in the dream where the Lord gave to Jacob shows this truth as a type or picture of beholding Christ. God told Jacob to put striped sticks by the water trough where the animals came to drink and mate and they had striped offspring.

There will be no difference as to who we are now in Christ and later other than a new body that will be incorruptible and the mind or soul of the believer will 100% reflect the nature of Christ that is in our spirit now. But now because of the infirmity of the flesh we see things darkly and we know in part.

 

[Ariel82]

PeterJens...do you lose respect from or for the people you constant insist on misrepresenting?

.

I lose it from those who behave as I have
seen day after day. You also play along as if it is all one big joke. .

If you think my posts are a joke and I am playing around, then you obviously don't know me or have much discernment.

All I see is you moving the goal post yet again and avoiding the issues of what this thread is meant to stand for and against.

Wesley believed and taught that believers have Christ imputed righteousness.

The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 20 - The Lord Our Righteousness

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But in what sense is this righteousness imputed to believers In this: all believers are forgiven and accepted, not for the sake of anything in them, or of anything that ever was, that is, or ever can be done by them, but wholly and solely for the sake of what Christ hath done and suffered for them. I say again, not for the sake of anything in them, or done by them, of their own righteousness or works: "Not for works of righteousness which we have done, but of his own mercy he saved us." "By grace ye are saved through faith, -- not of works, lest any man should boast;" but wholly and solely for the sake of what Christ hath done and suffered for us. We are "justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ." And this is not only the means of our obtaining the favour of God, but of our continuing therein. It is thus we come to God at first; it is by the same we come unto him ever after. We walk in one and the same new and living way, till our spirit returns to God.

6. And this is the doctrine which I have constantly believed and taught, for near eight and twenty years. This I published to all the world in the year 1738, and ten or twelve times since, in those words, and many others to the same effect, extracted from the Homilies of our Church: -- "These things must necessarily go together in our justification; upon God's part, his great mercy and grace; upon Christ's part, the satisfaction of God's justice; and on our part, faith in the merits of Christ. So that the grace of God doth not shut out the righteousness of God in our justification, but only shutteth out the righteousness of man, as to deserving our justification." "That we are justified by faith alone, is spoken to take away clearly all merit of our works, and wholly to ascribe the merit and deserving of our justification to Christ only. Our justification comes freely of the mere mercy of God. For whereas all the world was not able to pay any part toward our ransom, it pleased Him, without any of our deserving, to prepare for us Christ's body and blood, whereby our ransom might be paid, and his justice satisfied. Christ, therefore, is now the righteousness of all them that truly believe in him."

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