Not By Works

eternally-gratefull · Jun 16, 2017

I think people forget, When Christ hung on the cross, and suffered Gods wrath for sin on our behalf as the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, All of my sin was yet future. God did not look forward, and say ok, Jesus will pay for the sins up to the point he professed christ, after that he is on his own. The OT law and Hebrews makes it clear, without the shedding of blood, there can be no forgiveness, Forgiveness can only be paid by redemption, The price of redemption was the cross.

Scripture says we are saved by Faith, We were justified (declared righteous) by Faith, We were born again by Faith, We were adopted by faith, we were given the right to become children of God by our faith, It does not say these things happened only when we confessed a personal sin, and was lost when we sinned again only to be renewed once we confessed that sin. That is nothing but a modern day version of the law, except leavig out the priest and sacrifice of the lamb, Henrews said unlike the riest who went in year after year, and even had to get his own sins forgiven, because future sin could not be forgiven by the law. Jesus a better high priest made one sacrifice (himself) and forever sat down at the right hand of God making intercession for his body,

The only accusation we have is from satan, Jesus puts the accusation to rest, as he points to the cross. Thus the onbnly danger accusation has is to take a person out of fellowship, and give up. as satan accuses us of our sins (how dare you think you are forgiven when you do such things, you think God really loves you? You better think again, You better do all these religious ceremonies, and all these sacraments, and confessions etc etc, and maybe just maybe God might forgive you and let you into heaven.

Eph 1 said all his children were given EVERY possession under heaven, as heirs of Christ, Not when this life is over, but the moment we heard the word of truth, the gospel of our savation, and entrusted our eternity to that word of truth in faith. In fact, he not only gave it to us at that time, he sealed us with his spirit as a pledge that that inheritance will not be withheld.

People who try to tell you future sin is not forgiven are not telling you the truth, They have been given a lie and have bought into it, and they want to take your security, your power, and your "rest" which God promised to all who come to him away,

Run, run far away from that false gospel of works. and seek God, and he will give you rest,

Ph 1: 6 Being confident of this very thing, that He who begun a good work in you WILL COMPLETE it until the day of christ

1 Jhn 5: 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

2 tim 1: 7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

Rom 8: 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

Col 2: 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 5: 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Eph 1 :[SUP] 3 [/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, [SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [SUP]5 [/SUP]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [SUP]6 [/SUP]to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. [SUP]7 [/SUP]In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace [SUP]8 [/SUP]which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence

meditate on these words. Focus on them, Learn them, Repeat them daily, For they will help you defeat the whiles of satan who wants to tear you down and make you think God will not keep his promise.

Grace777x70 · Jun 16, 2017

Well said eternally-grateful!

Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. The proper understanding and revelation of the forgiveness of sins is paramount to growing up in Christ. It is "the gospel message".

The understanding of the circumcision of Christ ( and of the heart ) where the body of the flesh has been "cut away" from the inner man that is in Christ - the new creation that has been created in righteousness and holiness is also paramount to growing up in Christ. Col. 2:11

We have word-for-word accounts of the true unadulterated gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ being preached in Acts 10 by Peter and Acts 13 by Paul and they both say the same thing. My goodness how their message differs from some of our modern day evangelical "gospels".

BillG · Jun 16, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

I agree....I too believe in confessing sin but NOT in order to receive forgiveness because I believe the gospel message of Christ that in Christ I have redemption the forgiveness of sins just like Paul said in Eph. 1:7. Col. 1:6

Sometimes people mis-interpret what is really being said and other times they deliberately mis-represent what is said too, so I will say this to hopefully stop both from occurring.

Here is what I do when I sin.

I love to kneel quickly and tell my Father how I trust in Him. How what I did was wrong.

Sometimes I use the word sin and sometimes I don't. I think that is irrelevant. I run to my Father and tell Him how that His Son is my Lord and is my life and my righteousness - that Jesus' Blood has secured my redemption and forgiveness of sins. I confess what God says about me. I tell Him I love Him and trust in Him.

I have not asked for forgiveness in order to be forgiven for quite some time now because I believe in what Christ has already done for me on the cross and resurrection....but I always talk with my Lord about what I do or don't do.

You know - He always loves on me and tells me He loves me and that He is my life and strength. Sometimes I have felt a warm liquid like feeling of pure love fall on me and I just sit there in His presence and weep. I can't move a muscle. He is so mighty in power yet His love and total acceptance is the most overwhelming aspect of His presence.

To me - all sin is relational. All sin is a failure to see the life of Christ in me. I am ignorant of His life in me. To me - most outward sin is just a "fruit" of the real sin.

For example - If I steal something - that is a sin but the real sin behind that is the failure to recognize my Father will take care of me. I am operating in the flesh. I want to take things into my own hand and "do" things.

The other part is when you see how horrid it really is when we mess up....sin....transgress.... whatever term you want to use.

..what I see is my unbelief in the goodness and love of my Father and Lord Jesus for me. That is the horrid part because I know that is not Their character nor is it really my true nature now and what He has made me in Christ.

I would be interested to hear what other people do when they get it wrong/sin

PeterJens · Jun 16, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

Let us break this theology down.
Satan can accuse us of sin and we are guilty if we have not repented of it and restored fellowship
with God. This would be a valid accusation.

Now we are called if we sin, what can we do?

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

The condition for forgiveness is confession of ones sins, not they are automatically
forgiven because we have put faith in Christ.

Now sin is a choice, it is against the Kingdom of Heaven, it is not a minor, oh it is
handled, no worries, everything is fine. The whole teaching of God is about being
specific about each sin and dealing with it. Behaviour matters so much, Jesus emphasised
every aspect of life in detail, how we are to hold ourselves in conversations, in attitude,
in love, in prayer, in forgiveness, yet all of this is simply ignored.

Gods promise is if you repent and confess and believe on the cross you are forgiven.

Scripture is so clear about this, I am amazed at how people what to distort and twist the
clear meaning about love and holiness, into it does not matter, you are sorted.

It is like saying to someone with the plague as they rot and die, there true self is healthy
and alive. Either you are walking towards sanctification to be like Jesus or you are no where.

Paul was so sad at the failure of the corinthians when the fell into sin, he wrote this

Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done.
2 Cor 7:8-11

The call to repentance from Paul led to sorrow, repentance, and change of behaviour.
They confessed their sins, and did what was requested, to see justice done.

This is so different than the idea there is no need to respond or get right with God.

I am amazed how such an obvious spiritual reality is preached against as if being evil,
a lie and not at the core of our walk with Christ.

It is exactly what Wesley preached against, a lack of focus on holiness and walking
in the way of Jesus. And not only does it encourage lax behaviour it attacks people
who take sin seriously and repent as evil, which is very anti-christian ideas.

PeterJens · Jun 16, 2017

BillG said:

If I get things wrong, I repent, confess and bring it to the foot of the cross for
forgiveness. Sin destroys my fellowship with my Lord and saviour, the source of
my life. I become blind and empty and this leads to decay of all I hold dear.

It is no wonder that those caught in unrepentant sin and rebellion lose focus and
react to anyone talking about the need to resolve sinful acts agressively and with
venom, because how can one stand at this level of compromise.

dcontroversal · Jun 16, 2017

LoveGodForever said:

No offense but this bolded in red is a misunderstanding.....the word unrighteousness does not mean sin.....it means to not be right or false....what is being stated is that God will reveal his wrath from heaven against ALL men who hold the truth to be false.........

dcontroversal · Jun 16, 2017

Calmador said:

What is your point?

The context of JAMES is men being able to see the invisible faith that saves "SHOW ME"

The context of Romans is FAITH alone is what saves VOID of works "Justified by faith without the deeds of the law-->works"

And the thief on the cross contradicts your first statement.....LORD remember me when you come into your kingdom.....

dcontroversal · Jun 16, 2017

Ariel82 said:

Seek and you shall find, Knock and it shall be opened unto you.......

it was a generalized statement.....geesh!

dcontroversal · Jun 16, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

I think people forget, When Christ hung on the cross, and suffered Gods wrath for sin on our behalf as the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, All of my sin was yet future. God did not look forward, and say ok, Jesus will pay for the sins up to the point he professed christ, after that he is on his own. The OT law and Hebrews makes it clear, without the shedding of blood, there can be no forgiveness, Forgiveness can only be paid by redemption, The price of redemption was the cross.

Scripture says we are saved by Faith, We were justified (declared righteous) by Faith, We were born again by Faith, We were adopted by faith, we were given the right to become children of God by our faith, It does not say these things happened only when we confessed a personal sin, and was lost when we sinned again only to be renewed once we confessed that sin. That is nothing but a modern day version of the law, except leavig out the priest and sacrifice of the lamb, Henrews said unlike the riest who went in year after year, and even had to get his own sins forgiven, because future sin could not be forgiven by the law. Jesus a better high priest made one sacrifice (himself) and forever sat down at the right hand of God making intercession for his body,

The only accusation we have is from satan, Jesus puts the accusation to rest, as he points to the cross. Thus the onbnly danger accusation has is to take a person out of fellowship, and give up. as satan accuses us of our sins (how dare you think you are forgiven when you do such things, you think God really loves you? You better think again, You better do all these religious ceremonies, and all these sacraments, and confessions etc etc, and maybe just maybe God might forgive you and let you into heaven.

Eph 1 said all his children were given EVERY possession under heaven, as heirs of Christ, Not when this life is over, but the moment we heard the word of truth, the gospel of our savation, and entrusted our eternity to that word of truth in faith. In fact, he not only gave it to us at that time, he sealed us with his spirit as a pledge that that inheritance will not be withheld.

People who try to tell you future sin is not forgiven are not telling you the truth, They have been given a lie and have bought into it, and they want to take your security, your power, and your "rest" which God promised to all who come to him away,

Run, run far away from that false gospel of works. and seek God, and he will give you rest,

Ph 1: 6 Being confident of this very thing, that He who begun a good work in you WILL COMPLETE it until the day of christ

1 Jhn 5: 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

2 tim 1: 7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

Rom 8: 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

Col 2: 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 5: 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Eph 1 :[SUP] 3 [/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, [SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [SUP]5 [/SUP]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [SUP]6 [/SUP]to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. [SUP]7 [/SUP]In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace [SUP]8 [/SUP]which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence

meditate on these words. Focus on them, Learn them, Repeat them daily, For they will help you defeat the whiles of satan who wants to tear you down and make you think God will not keep his promise.

AMEN.........100% agree.......he saved me knowing full well every sin I would commit and NAILED every one of them to the cross and applied his righteousness to me which rendered me legally innocent.......JUSTIFIED

eternally-gratefull · Jun 16, 2017

[QUOTE=BillG;3140248]I would be interested to hear what other people do when they get it wrong/sin[/QUOTE]

we should do what God tells us to do,

1. confess it to each other, this allows us to be open, and helps in healing
2. Confess it to god, ultimately we sin against God whenever we sin, we should confess to him first and foremost, again, this helps in healing, and restoration of the rest he promised
3. We should confess to the person we sinned against,

What happens if if we do not confess?

1. We have to hide it
2. We can become hardened to it, to the point of forgetting we do it, or it is even a sin at all
3. It affects our spiritual life, how can we approach God if we know we have unconfessed sin, we may even stop going to church or become distant,
4. We become arrogant, self righteous people as we are forced to judge others who sin to make us feel better about our own sin
5. The stress and anxiety can cause health problems, which if not taken care of can tear us down, that's why god said confession can heal.
6. We may continue to sin that same sin, because we can not get help, depending on what sin it is, it could again be very devastating to ourselves and others, may even cause death.

what it will not do

1. restore us to a lost salvation. If we were adopted by God, we are his children, but we suffer chastening, and the more we refuse to repent, the stronger that gets, many even suffer death (Physical)

LoveGodForever · Jun 16, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Hi DCON was just about to go to bed my time dropped by for a quick read and saw the above. No offense taken mate! All good. Have you seen how God's Word defines righteousness? Will have to go now but can chat more latter. Something to consider below...

“My tongue shall speak of thy word: fo r all thy commandments are righteousness.” (Psalms 119:172)

“All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.” (1John 5:17)

“Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” (1John 3:4)

Hebrew/Greek

Righteousness;

צדק
tsedeq

tseh'-dek

From H6663; the right (natural, moral or legal law); just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness)

Unrighteousness;
ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

Ok have to go now 99 all and God bless you

Stephen63 · Jun 16, 2017

dcontroversal said:

New International Version
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
New Living Translation
But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
English Standard Version
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Berean Study Bible
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
Berean Literal Bible
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, suppressing the truth by unrighteousness,
New American Standard Bible
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

What is the purpose of suppressing truth?

Truth has to be surpressed so that lies can have a chance to grow.

Truth stands out so strong that lies & half-truths don't stand a chance of being believed.
Suppress -

transitive verb
1: to put down by authority or force : subdue suppress a riot
2: to keep from public knowledge: such asa : to keep secretb : to stop or prohibit the publication or revelation of suppress the test results
3a : to exclude from consciousnessb : to keep from giving vent to : check suppressed her anger
4obsolete : to press down
5a : to restrain from a usual course or action suppress a coughb : to inhibit the growth or development of
6: to inhibit the genetic expression of suppress a mutation

Spiritual suppression is a big deal..... That's why certain people get slammed like a rag doll..... not because of who they are, but because of what they are & the truth they spread.

Much of it isn't a reputation thing or an attitude thing at all, that's a cover-up & part of their suppression..... they hate them for what they possess & spread..... the truth.
Most will say "they just have a different opinion", they're still christians.

No, it's not that simple, & no, it's not true.

Those who suppress the truth do so knowing the truth & are doing so on purpose.

So, no..... it's not a difference of opinion..... it's spiritual warfare.

The irony is those here those from the bottom to the top are doing/allowing the suppression instead of spreading the truth. Most whom one thinks are the "good guys"..... aren't.

Wake up & smell the coffee!

dcontroversal · Jun 16, 2017

LoveGodForever said:

Hi DCON was just about to go to bed my time dropped by for a quick read and saw the above. No offense taken mate! All good. Have you seen how God's Word defines righteousness? Will have to go now but can chat more latter. Something to consider below...

“My tongue shall speak of thy word: fo r all thy commandments are righteousness.” (Psalms 119:172)

“All unrighteousness is sin:and there is a sin not unto death.” (1John 5:17)

“Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” (1John 3:4)

Hebrew/Greek

Righteousness;

צדק
tsedeq

tseh'-dek

From H6663; the right (natural, moral or legal law); just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness)

Unrighteousness;
ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

Ok have to go now 99 all and God bless you

yep....they hold the truth of GOD to be UNRIGHTEOUS opposite of RIGHTeous.......sleep well......and is a perfect example of lost men.....WE are NOT appointed unto wrath (orge) as in the saved are not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation.....

dcontroversal · Jun 16, 2017

Stephen63 said:

New International Version
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
New Living Translation
But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
English Standard Version
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Berean Study Bible
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
Berean Literal Bible
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, suppressing the truth by unrighteousness,
New American Standard Bible
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

What is the purpose of suppressing truth?

Truth has to be surpressed so that lies can have a chance to grow.

Truth stands out so strong that lies & half-truths don't stand a chance of being believed.
Suppress -

transitive verb
1: to put down by authority or force : subdue suppress a riot
2: to keep from public knowledge: such asa : to keep secretb : to stop or prohibit the publication or revelation of suppress the test results
3a : to exclude from consciousnessb : to keep from giving vent to : check suppressed her anger
4obsolete : to press down
5a : to restrain from a usual course or action suppress a coughb : to inhibit the growth or development of
6: to inhibit the genetic expression of suppress a mutation

Spiritual suppression is a big deal..... That's why certain people get slammed like a rag doll..... not because of who they are, but because of what they are & the truth they spread.

Much of it isn't a reputation thing or an attitude thing at all, that's a cover-up & part of their suppression..... they hate them for what they possess & spread..... the truth.
Most will say "they just have a different opinion", they're still christians.

No, it's not that simple, & no, it's not true.

Those who suppress the truth do so knowing the truth & are doing so on purpose.

So, no..... it's not a difference of opinion..... it's spiritual warfare.

The irony is those here those from the bottom to the top are doing/allowing the suppression instead of spreading the truth. Most whom one thinks are the "good guys"..... aren't.

Wake up & smell the coffee!

Do you have something of value to add....your diatribe and view means zero pal..........the verse is simple and the saved are not appointed unto wrath....the men that face it HOLD THE TRUTH OF GOD TO BE UNRIGHTEOUS....go study a bit and them come back and bloviate......

ONE who is saved does not HOLD THE TRUTH OF GOD TO BE UNRIGHTEOUS........you take the cake!

Grace777x70 · Jun 16, 2017

Lawlessness is seeking to replace God and His activity in Christ with our own activity - no matter how good it appears to be on the outside.

All manner of sinning is replacing the life of Christ to live by our own ways. There is an out-right immorality such as sexual sinning to find life and then there is the sinning of relying on our own good works for salvation.

Both are lawlessness and is a fruit of eating from the same tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Both good fruit and evil or useless fruit where on the very same tree.

When we start to live conscious of the Lord as our righteousness, we will begin to manifest His life of righteousness that is already in us outwardly. From the inside out, genuine good works, obedience, holiness and love will flow unabated out of an authentic relationship with our loving heavenly Father.

There is a prescribed order of victory in the New Covenant. Until the believer sees his death on the cross with Jesus, he cannot experience Christ as his life as a new man in Christ. - the new creation where he was raised from the dead with Christ to newness of life.

Religion tries to "dictate" to others that they "do" these things from what this fruit looks like when they see "descriptions" of what the life of Christ looks like in the epistles and in the ministry of Jesus and tries to "mimic" it in order to say we have salvation.

This replaces the grace of God that is in Christ from operating in our lives like it was meant to do and thus creates it's own self-righteousness and works-righteousness - which is a false gospel and religion.

The true grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ releases His life in and through us to manifest outwardly what is already ours in our new creation in Christ - the new man of the heart - created in righteousness and holiness.

This comes about by the renewing of our minds by the Holy Spirit as we behold the goodness/glory of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

Stephen63 · Jun 16, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Uuummm, did I say the righteous do?!? Ummmm, noooo.

You said I said it.

Aaand that amounts to..... nothing.

But thank you for proving my point & being so obvious.

Stephen63 said:

New International Version
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
New Living Translation
But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
English Standard Version
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Berean Study Bible
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
Berean Literal Bible
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, suppressing the truth by unrighteousness,
New American Standard Bible
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

What is the purpose of suppressing truth?

Truth has to be surpressed so that lies can have a chance to grow.

Truth stands out so strong that lies & half-truths don't stand a chance of being believed.
Suppress -

transitive verb
1: to put down by authority or force : subdue suppress a riot
2: to keep from public knowledge: such asa : to keep secretb : to stop or prohibit the publication or revelation of suppress the test results
3a : to exclude from consciousnessb : to keep from giving vent to : check suppressed her anger
4obsolete : to press down
5a : to restrain from a usual course or action suppress a coughb : to inhibit the growth or development of
6: to inhibit the genetic expression of suppress a mutation

Spiritual suppression is a big deal..... That's why certain people get slammed like a rag doll..... not because of who they are, but because of what they are & the truth they spread.

Much of it isn't a reputation thing or an attitude thing at all, that's a cover-up & part of their suppression..... they hate them for what they possess & spread..... the truth.
Most will say "they just have a different opinion, they're still christians."

No, it's not that simple, & no, it's not true.

Those who suppress the truth do so knowing the truth & are doing so on purpose.

So, no..... it's not a difference of opinion..... it's spiritual warfare.

The irony is those here those from the bottom to the top are doing/allowing the suppression instead of spreading the truth. Most whom one thinks are the "good guys"..... aren't.

Wake up & smell the coffee!

dcontroversal · Jun 16, 2017

I can cut and paste scriptures all day long as well.....the end result of the following verse is......

a. The wrath of GOD is revealed from heaven against UNRIGTEOUS MEN NOT the saved
b. The UNRIGHTEOUS MEN NOT THE SAVED HOLD, SUPPRESS, DETAIN, HOLD BACK the TRUTH IN UNRIIGHTEOUSNESS
c. NOT BY UNRIGHTEOUSNESS

THE GREEK WORD IN
Original Word: ἐν
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: en
Phonetic Spelling: (en)
Short Definition: in, on, among
Definition: in, on, among.

en (a preposition) – properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within).

AT THE END OF THE DAY.......NOT ONE SAVED MAN WILL FACE THE WRATH OF GOD, NOR WILL THEY HOLD, SUPPRESS, HOLD BACK THE WORD OF GOD AND OR DEEM IT UNRIGHTEOUS

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness ; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." (Rom 1:18-22)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness, and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold down the truth in unrighteousness

For there is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety, and unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;

dcontroversal · Jun 16, 2017

Stephen63 said:

My rebuttal was applied to a set of scriptures that were aimed at a Saved man G777...the verse is not applied unto saved men, but unto LOST men who will not glorify GOD, men who position the truth and hold the truth and or suppress the truth IN unrighteousness.....

I took your reply to be a strike against my rebuttal.......as YOU SEEM to do this regularly........if but in a subtle way....anyway....

IF I misunderstood your response...I have no problem admitting it....and or apologizing.....peace!

PeterJens · Jun 16, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

This discussion made me focus on the ideas behind these ideas.
Sin is something like a heap of debt or cost. It is there from the fall till judgement day.
Jesus paid the price and it was removed. This is a very detached view of the language and
ideas of the purpose of the cross and how salvation works, by the cleansing of the heart of
the believer, to bring them as a holy, pure, clean individual.

Now if the problem is in the sinner that we do not believe God will forgive us, to reach out and
trust Him and walk in fellowship and oneness with Him, to know His ways and walk in them.

To bridge the gap, God himself had to die at our hands, at the hands of the worst people, and
then forgive them, not judge them but conquer and walk in love. It had to be God, as a
demonstration of His justice and His offer of hope. But it is all about the healing for those who
see it, because it only has its impact here in the believers heart, connecting them to God.

The healing and purification that comes through believing on Christ is in the heart and soul,
leading to the breaking of hold sin has on the believer. To then continue in sin, to walk in
the passions of the flesh is a denial of the very change in the believer and in what Christ is
demonstrating through the cross.

A doctrine that all sin in the world has now been forgiven is also meaningless.
Only if people see Christ and the cross is healing applied in their souls. The whole point of
the cross is to bring about this healing through repentance, and to bring reality to their lives.

Those who claim they are not religious yet create these non-sensical projections about sin
and forgiveness being applied to the whole world are truly deluded into religious projection.
The only reason for forgiveness is to purchase a righteous holy people into eternity.
If one is purchasing sinners who stay sinners this is a contradiction of the very principles and
foundation of who God is and what He is clearly all about.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 16, 2017

How people can claim to be bible believers who study it deeply, and totally miss that the OT The of Christ was that all sin was forgiven solely on the fact an innocent was slaughtered in the sinners place (Atonement and redemption) and that justification can only come through that sacrifice, as the subsititutionary atonement was made, is totally beyond me.

Then again, the Pharisee saw Jesus raise a man from the dead, and instead of praising him as God, had him crucified. So I guess reading and grasping are proven to be two different things

Not By Works

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