Not By Works
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The cheap gracers picked out a couple of verses on "sealing" and made a Whole doctrine out of it.
I'm sure you must be intelligent enough to know that THIS IS NOT DONE.
The scripture you pick out MUST conform to the rest of scripture.
The rest of scripture says you can lose your salvation:
Mathew 7:19
There are sooooo many:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
I'm sure you must be intelligent enough to know that THIS IS NOT DONE.
The scripture you pick out MUST conform to the rest of scripture.
The rest of scripture says you can lose your salvation:
Mathew 7:19
There are sooooo many:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
E
when you see someone headed in a direction that will harm them is it more loving to be quiet and let them go, or warn them
Yep, and who has the son? All who eat of the food which endures to eternal life, who entrust their life to Christ, who believe, he who believes has eternal life, he who does not believe shall not see life but the wrath of God.
oh and, not everyone who says they believe, do. One who believes will never lose faith, God does not give them a reason too, and gives an abundant of reasons to never lose faith,
1 being eternal life, which Joh said we can know we have, and because of this known fact, we will continue to have faith.
ever think the reason you think one can lose faith is you do not think they have eternal life
That is where you and I differ
you think people can get saved and do nothing, I do not
all gods children obey his commands, because they have true faith.
If one claims aims they have faith, but has no work, their faith was dead to begin with, they did not lose salvationlike you profess, they never had it
Yep, and who has the son? All who eat of the food which endures to eternal life, who entrust their life to Christ, who believe, he who believes has eternal life, he who does not believe shall not see life but the wrath of God.
oh and, not everyone who says they believe, do. One who believes will never lose faith, God does not give them a reason too, and gives an abundant of reasons to never lose faith,
1 being eternal life, which Joh said we can know we have, and because of this known fact, we will continue to have faith.
ever think the reason you think one can lose faith is you do not think they have eternal life
That is where you and I differ
you think people can get saved and do nothing, I do not
all gods children obey his commands, because they have true faith.
If one claims aims they have faith, but has no work, their faith was dead to begin with, they did not lose salvationlike you profess, they never had it
E
So God said things which were not true? May it never be
Rom 11 speaks of God not sparing the natural branch (Israel) as a nation, he will not spare you gentiles (as a group) either
he is not talking about personal salvation.
you talk about interpreting scripture so it does not contradict, then interpret when god says he seals us as a pledge untold we are resurrected, then take another passage which contradicts it to declaired God did not mean what he said, instead of making both passages agree and God not a liar
way to go
Rom 11 speaks of God not sparing the natural branch (Israel) as a nation, he will not spare you gentiles (as a group) either
he is not talking about personal salvation.
you talk about interpreting scripture so it does not contradict, then interpret when god says he seals us as a pledge untold we are resurrected, then take another passage which contradicts it to declaired God did not mean what he said, instead of making both passages agree and God not a liar
way to go
Evening Fran (aka wondering) precious sister.
I think the issue is that we can all post scripture, when we do that we actually do so based on what we think the writers are saying.
Otherwise we wouldn't do so and of course this leads to disagreements.
This is not a personal attack on you (I know you know me better) but you and I don't agree on all things but we still we don't condemn each other.
At the end of the day those who are settled on their position I assume have researched, studied and are settled on it.
Even on the most contesious verses we have in the bible.
At the end of the day I think we all need to realise that Jesus is greater than it all, allow him to correct us and only him.
If we have this heart then he will do it.
Let us all all make it about Jesus and not personal.
Just my thoughts precious sister, much love and grace to you.
I think the issue is that we can all post scripture, when we do that we actually do so based on what we think the writers are saying.
Otherwise we wouldn't do so and of course this leads to disagreements.
This is not a personal attack on you (I know you know me better) but you and I don't agree on all things but we still we don't condemn each other.
At the end of the day those who are settled on their position I assume have researched, studied and are settled on it.
Even on the most contesious verses we have in the bible.
At the end of the day I think we all need to realise that Jesus is greater than it all, allow him to correct us and only him.
If we have this heart then he will do it.
Let us all all make it about Jesus and not personal.
Just my thoughts precious sister, much love and grace to you.
This is a projection. You can say some look for examples in scripture as to how powerful
they are, but you then have to explain what you mean, so then people can agree or disagree
with the point.
To simple make a statement and then apply it to an individual is just not being honest.
Now when I read the OT it always struck me how merciful and graceful God was towards
mankind. I know of many people who think the OT is just judgement and evil.
they are, but you then have to explain what you mean, so then people can agree or disagree
with the point.
To simple make a statement and then apply it to an individual is just not being honest.
Now when I read the OT it always struck me how merciful and graceful God was towards
mankind. I know of many people who think the OT is just judgement and evil.
ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Do you think you're dealing with a new Christian??
You know very well Galatias is speaking to the Jews who wanted to return to the Law.
I've been asking all along what is the difference between:
OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW
OBEDIENCE OF FAITH
If would have behooved you to answer that instead of posting scripture that has nothing to do with persons who are born again AND DO NOT LIVE UNDER THE LAW.
I'll tell you what OBEDIENCE OF FAITH is
YOU tell me what OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW is --- you sound like an expert.
OBEDIENCE OF FAITH:
To obey: Actually from the Latin, OBAUDIRE, to hear or listen to in the sense of DOING WHAT IS SAID.
As a child would OBEY the parent.
To obey is an action. You DO what is asked... so,
To obey IN FAITH is to submit FREELY to the word that has been heard, because it's truth has been guaranteed by God, Who is TRUTH itself.
(Abraham would be a model of such obedience. He did whateve God asked him to do. Ditto for Moses)
So you have faith in God. You believe God is telling you the truth and you obey and adhere to His commands.
BUT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO OBEY, even though you do it through faith.
Now explain to me the difference: OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW.
Do you think you're dealing with a new Christian??
You know very well Galatias is speaking to the Jews who wanted to return to the Law.
I've been asking all along what is the difference between:
OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW
OBEDIENCE OF FAITH
If would have behooved you to answer that instead of posting scripture that has nothing to do with persons who are born again AND DO NOT LIVE UNDER THE LAW.
I'll tell you what OBEDIENCE OF FAITH is
YOU tell me what OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW is --- you sound like an expert.
OBEDIENCE OF FAITH:
To obey: Actually from the Latin, OBAUDIRE, to hear or listen to in the sense of DOING WHAT IS SAID.
As a child would OBEY the parent.
To obey is an action. You DO what is asked... so,
To obey IN FAITH is to submit FREELY to the word that has been heard, because it's truth has been guaranteed by God, Who is TRUTH itself.
(Abraham would be a model of such obedience. He did whateve God asked him to do. Ditto for Moses)
So you have faith in God. You believe God is telling you the truth and you obey and adhere to His commands.
BUT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO OBEY, even though you do it through faith.
Now explain to me the difference: OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW.
I realised peoples language is inverted. Rather than saying the law is fantastic but I
have problems understanding this, people are saying the law condemns me, I just want
acceptance and forgiveness.
The law is only there for law breakers, and if one has a problem with the law, you are a
law breaker. So rather than using this as an excuse, it is an opportunity to see the law
represents the heart of God. If we have Gods heart the law is the outflow from us.
Jesus and Paul simply say if you love you fulfill the law. So people are saying they have
a problem with loving others in general or certain people in particular?
I have to be honest unless you can overcome this barrier faith is a little pointless.
We are the people of love, our hearts are full of love, our walk is a walk of love and service.
At what point is there a rejection of the ability to love others?
Do I perfectly love all? No, but I work on it, and learn how to grow in Christ and the cross,
to see how I can reach out and lift up others. How do you walk?
have problems understanding this, people are saying the law condemns me, I just want
acceptance and forgiveness.
The law is only there for law breakers, and if one has a problem with the law, you are a
law breaker. So rather than using this as an excuse, it is an opportunity to see the law
represents the heart of God. If we have Gods heart the law is the outflow from us.
Jesus and Paul simply say if you love you fulfill the law. So people are saying they have
a problem with loving others in general or certain people in particular?
I have to be honest unless you can overcome this barrier faith is a little pointless.
We are the people of love, our hearts are full of love, our walk is a walk of love and service.
At what point is there a rejection of the ability to love others?
Do I perfectly love all? No, but I work on it, and learn how to grow in Christ and the cross,
to see how I can reach out and lift up others. How do you walk?
U
Well maybe you can answer this question.
How much obedience to the faith is necessary to be saved. There must be an absolute standard since we are taking about God who is perfect.
Where does God draw the line and say you have not met the standard set by Abraham and therefore you are now in jeopardy of losing your salvation
How much obedience to the faith is necessary to be saved. There must be an absolute standard since we are taking about God who is perfect.
Where does God draw the line and say you have not met the standard set by Abraham and therefore you are now in jeopardy of losing your salvation
I understand different personalities.
Some hate approximations, or group positions. So being a Christian is not good enough.
It has to be some detailed exergesis with every point exactly right, even though it may not
be relevant, unless you get it right, you know nothing.
People like this are impossible to discuss with, because they have no sense of the general
thrust of belief and more refined details that are personal.
So a believer walks with Jesus. There must be deep conviction of sin, repentance and a desire
to shun evil and walk in the ways of Christ. Without this there is nothing of real value.
If two people hold this view yet one disowns the other, and accuses them of being evil, something
has gone very wrong. Because the fundamentals are being overthrown somewhere and a different
gospel is being preached.
It gets very hard in the discussions when rather than owning up to this shift, it is covered up and
a full frontal assault is attempted as if this makes any difference. You cannot stand on facts, and
then attack people. That is just being dishonest.
So for instance Paul in Corinthinians saying Israel is an example to us of what happens if after being
blessed by Him we walk away, saying it does not, is just a non-substantiated claim. It indicates there
is no actual response that is honest, just blind allegiance to a position.
Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.
1 cor 10:6
My impression is one wants the bible to be read one way, and simply to not read it makes it easier
to hold on to the wrong framework and ideas.
If you truly have faith in Christ, there is nothing to fear that you will be deceived by walking with an
open heart and listening to the Holy Spirit. This is how we grow in Christ.
Some hate approximations, or group positions. So being a Christian is not good enough.
It has to be some detailed exergesis with every point exactly right, even though it may not
be relevant, unless you get it right, you know nothing.
People like this are impossible to discuss with, because they have no sense of the general
thrust of belief and more refined details that are personal.
So a believer walks with Jesus. There must be deep conviction of sin, repentance and a desire
to shun evil and walk in the ways of Christ. Without this there is nothing of real value.
If two people hold this view yet one disowns the other, and accuses them of being evil, something
has gone very wrong. Because the fundamentals are being overthrown somewhere and a different
gospel is being preached.
It gets very hard in the discussions when rather than owning up to this shift, it is covered up and
a full frontal assault is attempted as if this makes any difference. You cannot stand on facts, and
then attack people. That is just being dishonest.
So for instance Paul in Corinthinians saying Israel is an example to us of what happens if after being
blessed by Him we walk away, saying it does not, is just a non-substantiated claim. It indicates there
is no actual response that is honest, just blind allegiance to a position.
Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.
1 cor 10:6
My impression is one wants the bible to be read one way, and simply to not read it makes it easier
to hold on to the wrong framework and ideas.
If you truly have faith in Christ, there is nothing to fear that you will be deceived by walking with an
open heart and listening to the Holy Spirit. This is how we grow in Christ.
Yes. You're right.
I don't know scripture well enough, so you're going to have to state the verses for me.
So Mathew 24:13 is speaking about the great tribulation and he who ENDURES to the end will be saved.
Does this mean that persons alive at that time would STILL be alive at the end of the tribulation?
I know that some theologians have put forth this exegesis.
I do not agree with it.
Mathew 24 is speaking to the end of the world; however, if you start at
Mathew 24:4 : Jesus is speaking about those who will come in His name and claim to be the Messiah.
But it will not be the end yet. Nation will rise against nation, there will be famines and earthquakes, this is the beginning of the end (Birth pains)
Jesus says... Then you will be persecuted, you will be hated..
AT THAT TIME MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH.
JESUS HIMSELF says that it is possible to turn away from the faith.
They will betray and hate each other.
Their love will grow cold.
BUT HE WHO STANDS FIRM TILL THE END WILL BE SAVED.
IOW, The ones who DO NOT turn away from the faith WILL BE SAVED.
1. Jesus says that some will turn away from the faith. Jesus should know if something can or cannot be done.
If HE says it, it must be true.
2. Those whose love does not grow cold and hold onto faith till the end of THEIR LIFE, will be saved.
This makes far more sense than to say that those who hold on till the end of time will be saved.
How does that make sense?
I don't know scripture well enough, so you're going to have to state the verses for me.
So Mathew 24:13 is speaking about the great tribulation and he who ENDURES to the end will be saved.
Does this mean that persons alive at that time would STILL be alive at the end of the tribulation?
I know that some theologians have put forth this exegesis.
I do not agree with it.
Mathew 24 is speaking to the end of the world; however, if you start at
Mathew 24:4 : Jesus is speaking about those who will come in His name and claim to be the Messiah.
But it will not be the end yet. Nation will rise against nation, there will be famines and earthquakes, this is the beginning of the end (Birth pains)
Jesus says... Then you will be persecuted, you will be hated..
AT THAT TIME MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH.
JESUS HIMSELF says that it is possible to turn away from the faith.
They will betray and hate each other.
Their love will grow cold.
BUT HE WHO STANDS FIRM TILL THE END WILL BE SAVED.
IOW, The ones who DO NOT turn away from the faith WILL BE SAVED.
1. Jesus says that some will turn away from the faith. Jesus should know if something can or cannot be done.
If HE says it, it must be true.
2. Those whose love does not grow cold and hold onto faith till the end of THEIR LIFE, will be saved.
This makes far more sense than to say that those who hold on till the end of time will be saved.
How does that make sense?
