Not By Works
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E
Self made righteousness - a righteousness which comes from ones own doing, from ones own power. Done in the power of the flesh. Vs Gods righteousness which comes from depending on the power of God, and is witnessed by serving others, and placing the needs of all others (even our enemies) above ourself. Also called the law of love. Anything done for the benefit of self. to gain something for self, or to earn a wage or reward is done out of self made righteousness. (note, a child of God does not work to earn reward. the reward is the last thing on his mind, If he gets them, great, if not, even greater, as long as the person he is serving gets something, Like Christ, that was all he wants, Also note. Christ deserves everything, we deserve hell. SO ANYTHING we get outside of hell is undeserved. A true child of God understand this. Which is why he has the capability to love others, because he understands, apart from Gods own love, he would have NOTHING
DIY religion - I am saved, I maintain my salvation, or I am ultimately in the end saved by my works. I may have started my salvation journey by faith alone, but it is maintained by works.
DIY religion - I am saved, I maintain my salvation, or I am ultimately in the end saved by my works. I may have started my salvation journey by faith alone, but it is maintained by works.
This is the strangest of ideas.
Let us say there is a problem.
If one claims we are a holy, pure, perfect being with a flesh that sins,
how is it that the Holy Spirit can dwell in us when we are defiled and lost.
Pauls argument about not being unequally yoked with unbelievers works on
the level that the holy pure believer makes the unbelieving spouse holy and pure
in the eyes of God. His logic is about the children being under a covenant before
they reach the age of responsibility. If one took it too far then the partner is also
saved.
The point I am making is Paul is convinced believers are pure and Holy walking
righteously before the King. He is not pedantic about sin, but it is washed away
and cleansed in the believer.
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God.
2 Cor 6:14-16
Can our spiritual life within die? According to Jesus, yes if we do not abide in Him.
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
John 15:6
This clearly is a warning about abiding in Christ, and having His life flowing through
us. If we do not, one will be thrown into the fire and burned.
Let us say there is a problem.
If one claims we are a holy, pure, perfect being with a flesh that sins,
how is it that the Holy Spirit can dwell in us when we are defiled and lost.
Pauls argument about not being unequally yoked with unbelievers works on
the level that the holy pure believer makes the unbelieving spouse holy and pure
in the eyes of God. His logic is about the children being under a covenant before
they reach the age of responsibility. If one took it too far then the partner is also
saved.
The point I am making is Paul is convinced believers are pure and Holy walking
righteously before the King. He is not pedantic about sin, but it is washed away
and cleansed in the believer.
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God.
2 Cor 6:14-16
Can our spiritual life within die? According to Jesus, yes if we do not abide in Him.
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
John 15:6
This clearly is a warning about abiding in Christ, and having His life flowing through
us. If we do not, one will be thrown into the fire and burned.
Bruce,
You are correct, the proper rendering of the Greek word Deny in Both 2 Tim 2.11-13 and Matt 10.32-33 is the same it is arneomai
arnéomai, ar-neh'-om-ahee; perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the middle voice of G4483; to contradict, i.e. disavow, reject, abnegate:—deny, refuse. It is plainly more than to simply contradict something.
If you rightly divide 2 Tim 2.13 you will notice that Paul was saying the very same thing Jesus himself said in Matt 10.32-33
[SUP]32 [/SUP]“Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. [SUP]33 [/SUP]But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
The word confess in this passage means to Acknowledge & declare.
Peter cannot rightly be brought up in this context. He repented for his denial and went on to confess Jesus before men the rest of his life.
You are correct, the proper rendering of the Greek word Deny in Both 2 Tim 2.11-13 and Matt 10.32-33 is the same it is arneomai
arnéomai, ar-neh'-om-ahee; perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the middle voice of G4483; to contradict, i.e. disavow, reject, abnegate:—deny, refuse. It is plainly more than to simply contradict something.
If you rightly divide 2 Tim 2.13 you will notice that Paul was saying the very same thing Jesus himself said in Matt 10.32-33
[SUP]32 [/SUP]“Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. [SUP]33 [/SUP]But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
The word confess in this passage means to Acknowledge & declare.
Peter cannot rightly be brought up in this context. He repented for his denial and went on to confess Jesus before men the rest of his life.
E
God Himself needs to die before His life in us dies.
Yes, it is strange the idea of eating flesh and blood.
But saying as God lives we shall live also. is a biblical fact. thus, in order for us to die, God would have to die also
E
Yes they can, People tasted Gods love when they were around jesus, They tasted the power of the HS when they were around those filed with the spirit.
On can go to church, and taste the things of God, yet never be saved,, It is why many end up leaving, they never chose to receive Christ, so althought they were blessed just by being in association which Gods people (blessing by association) they still never found anything to fill that whole inside, because only God could fill it completely, so they left, and tried something else.
On can go to church, and taste the things of God, yet never be saved,, It is why many end up leaving, they never chose to receive Christ, so althought they were blessed just by being in association which Gods people (blessing by association) they still never found anything to fill that whole inside, because only God could fill it completely, so they left, and tried something else.
This idea struck me. Where does the love in my heart come from? What if someone has
never truly known love or let it out?
I knew from an early age I loved. I loved my family and my friends. Beyond that I did not know.
Now the love I have for others is the love God placed within me. It is having the hurts and pain
I felt healed, and recognising I had shut myself down to stop the pain and loneliness.
And in the cross and in how Jesus lived, I see love overflowing, through the whole of scripture,
a stunning holy giving Lord, and people just demanding their own needs and efforts are met.
In repentance, I see myself and my failure, and suddenly love just flows. It is not something
I choose or a desire, it is I see things as they are, and how the Lord is everything.
When Jesus said abiding in Him, His life will flow through us and bring fruit, he was not talking
about mental assent or working out we should be nice to people. One person testified they did
not like an individual, but they had to love them. The truth was they did not know this individual
and were just reacting to what they thought about them. That is not love or seeing people as
Christ sees them.
You cannot teach love, it is about so many things, because God is love.
The way some have responded to my sharing has not been loving, but then they obviously do not
really know what love is, or else they would not respond as they do.
If you have met someone tormented by mental illness, or been bullied all their lives, or caught in
an addiction they cannot free themselves from, you begin to see how a person can be eaten alive
by the pressure and drives they are living through. It is tragic, but for a few Jesus can come in
and pull them out. When that light of love and acceptance through the cross comes on, it is
stunning. That is love at work in the heart of man. Halleluyah.
never truly known love or let it out?
I knew from an early age I loved. I loved my family and my friends. Beyond that I did not know.
Now the love I have for others is the love God placed within me. It is having the hurts and pain
I felt healed, and recognising I had shut myself down to stop the pain and loneliness.
And in the cross and in how Jesus lived, I see love overflowing, through the whole of scripture,
a stunning holy giving Lord, and people just demanding their own needs and efforts are met.
In repentance, I see myself and my failure, and suddenly love just flows. It is not something
I choose or a desire, it is I see things as they are, and how the Lord is everything.
When Jesus said abiding in Him, His life will flow through us and bring fruit, he was not talking
about mental assent or working out we should be nice to people. One person testified they did
not like an individual, but they had to love them. The truth was they did not know this individual
and were just reacting to what they thought about them. That is not love or seeing people as
Christ sees them.
You cannot teach love, it is about so many things, because God is love.
The way some have responded to my sharing has not been loving, but then they obviously do not
really know what love is, or else they would not respond as they do.
If you have met someone tormented by mental illness, or been bullied all their lives, or caught in
an addiction they cannot free themselves from, you begin to see how a person can be eaten alive
by the pressure and drives they are living through. It is tragic, but for a few Jesus can come in
and pull them out. When that light of love and acceptance through the cross comes on, it is
stunning. That is love at work in the heart of man. Halleluyah.
Amen! These Hebrews had tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one may or may not decide to accept and truly receive what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we taste into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).
E
Amen,
Also in John 6, where he did not tell us to taste the bread he gave, or his flesh, but to actually gnaw and chew on it completely and take it in.
To many people taste God and his ways, and think it either tastes bad and walk away immediately, or stick around for a test drive, until they find out its not what they thought.
Yes....I agree. I did say - well - the Greek scholars actually were the ones that did say that the word "deny or contradict" is used in both ways. Denying Christ outright is contradicting that Christ is Lord and Savior and also denying what is true about oneself - this is also being contradicting to the truth.
You cannot be a born from above true Christian and deny or contradict the truth that Jesus is Lord and Savior. We can be messed up in our minds because of false religious teachings and back away from the so-called organized church but never back away from Jesus that is in our hearts.
I have seen people talk about the foul doctrine that God sends sicknesses on their child and kills them so that the parent can "learn" something. This ungodly belief in the Father's nature has spawned a mind that is against this "projection of some religious people's teachings about God".
I have heard testimonies of this very thing happening to them and they walked away from the church - only years later to come back to the true understanding of the grace and love of God for them in Christ and they reject this foul doctrine for what it is but their heart was always with the Lord despite what turmoil and blindness the false teaching has brought upon their un-renewed minds.
You cannot be a born from above true Christian and deny or contradict the truth that Jesus is Lord and Savior. We can be messed up in our minds because of false religious teachings and back away from the so-called organized church but never back away from Jesus that is in our hearts.
I have seen people talk about the foul doctrine that God sends sicknesses on their child and kills them so that the parent can "learn" something. This ungodly belief in the Father's nature has spawned a mind that is against this "projection of some religious people's teachings about God".
I have heard testimonies of this very thing happening to them and they walked away from the church - only years later to come back to the true understanding of the grace and love of God for them in Christ and they reject this foul doctrine for what it is but their heart was always with the Lord despite what turmoil and blindness the false teaching has brought upon their un-renewed minds.
Ok guys. There is a difference between a one off event, eating the bread of the new
covenant, and abiding in the bread of the new covenant through ones life and into heaven.
All of scripture is dependent on continuing in communion and fellowship with God.
Imagine a thought of belief is a tangible thing. You can take it and apply it today.
Now on the day of judgement, what matters is that you carry this tangible belief.
If you have given it up and lost it, the promise is no longer for you.
One could from the verse in John 6:58 say all who participate in one communion
at some time in their life will live forever.
What Jesus is saying is the promise is for everyone, just abide in me, stay with me,
follow me, obey me, walk in my ways, believe what I say, I have not hidden any
facts or secrets about the Kingdom, it is really this simple.
But this is where easy believism comes in. No walking righteously is hard, because we
have tried and got it very wrong. So it must be we are accepted no matter how badly
we fail, it is just a free ticket, once bought never lost.
There is only one reason to dilute the gospel like this, because the emotional, spiritual
and relationship realities have stumped some. But then ask this simple question. Are they
alone, or have they sought the advice of others, confessing sin, and getting right with God?
And invariably people are alone, traumatised, some with ptsd or a terrible history which needs
working through, and healing and years of relearning a healthy way of living. So rather than
come to the healer and into the light, it is easier to talk easy believism.
covenant, and abiding in the bread of the new covenant through ones life and into heaven.
All of scripture is dependent on continuing in communion and fellowship with God.
Imagine a thought of belief is a tangible thing. You can take it and apply it today.
Now on the day of judgement, what matters is that you carry this tangible belief.
If you have given it up and lost it, the promise is no longer for you.
One could from the verse in John 6:58 say all who participate in one communion
at some time in their life will live forever.
What Jesus is saying is the promise is for everyone, just abide in me, stay with me,
follow me, obey me, walk in my ways, believe what I say, I have not hidden any
facts or secrets about the Kingdom, it is really this simple.
But this is where easy believism comes in. No walking righteously is hard, because we
have tried and got it very wrong. So it must be we are accepted no matter how badly
we fail, it is just a free ticket, once bought never lost.
There is only one reason to dilute the gospel like this, because the emotional, spiritual
and relationship realities have stumped some. But then ask this simple question. Are they
alone, or have they sought the advice of others, confessing sin, and getting right with God?
And invariably people are alone, traumatised, some with ptsd or a terrible history which needs
working through, and healing and years of relearning a healthy way of living. So rather than
come to the healer and into the light, it is easier to talk easy believism.
How do you get that Paul was talking about unbelievers in 2 Tim 2? I cannot see the context there.
Is all of 1 John and especially 1 John 2is warning us agaisnt Gnostic doctrine or
Your supposition, and I might be wrong, so clarify it if I am, is that the people in 1 John 2, came for the truth, stayed and were exposed to the truth and were just mental assenting of the truth and then left and then and only then became deniers of Christ. If this is what you are saying then that is not found to be accurate in context.
John is saying in all of 1 John and especially 1 John 2 that Gnostic doctrine and the spirit of antichrist was ALREADY in the church and had already infiltrated it and as false religion does, it deceives people and it moves on, when the truth was exposed about the false religion. This is what he meant when he said they went out from us, they went out from us because they were exposed by the truth that their teachings were a spirit of antichrist.
These people in 1 John 2 had come to the church to spread their Gnostic and antichrist doctrine. This is why 1 John was written, to warn us of what Gnostic and antichrist false doctrine is all about.
These people were not mental assenting to the truth and then left and then denied Christ and were never saved to begin with...they had intentional motivation to destroy the church through a Gnostic doctrine and they were enabled by by a spirit of antichrist.
Given this context 1 John 2 is not talking about salvation at all. 1 John 2.26 tells us why he wrote what he did
[SUP]26 [/SUP]These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.<<<<<<<<<<<<
Gnostics did not believe the supreme being, Jesus, ever came in the flesh, and was only a human whose divinity was achieved through gnosis only.
This is all that 1 John is about, combating the Gnostic doctrine and spirit of antichrist, which simply says-Jesus was only a human with no divine powers.
Is all of 1 John and especially 1 John 2is warning us agaisnt Gnostic doctrine or
Your supposition, and I might be wrong, so clarify it if I am, is that the people in 1 John 2, came for the truth, stayed and were exposed to the truth and were just mental assenting of the truth and then left and then and only then became deniers of Christ. If this is what you are saying then that is not found to be accurate in context.
John is saying in all of 1 John and especially 1 John 2 that Gnostic doctrine and the spirit of antichrist was ALREADY in the church and had already infiltrated it and as false religion does, it deceives people and it moves on, when the truth was exposed about the false religion. This is what he meant when he said they went out from us, they went out from us because they were exposed by the truth that their teachings were a spirit of antichrist.
These people in 1 John 2 had come to the church to spread their Gnostic and antichrist doctrine. This is why 1 John was written, to warn us of what Gnostic and antichrist false doctrine is all about.
These people were not mental assenting to the truth and then left and then denied Christ and were never saved to begin with...they had intentional motivation to destroy the church through a Gnostic doctrine and they were enabled by by a spirit of antichrist.
Given this context 1 John 2 is not talking about salvation at all. 1 John 2.26 tells us why he wrote what he did
[SUP]26 [/SUP]These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.<<<<<<<<<<<<
Gnostics did not believe the supreme being, Jesus, ever came in the flesh, and was only a human whose divinity was achieved through gnosis only.
This is all that 1 John is about, combating the Gnostic doctrine and spirit of antichrist, which simply says-Jesus was only a human with no divine powers.
Nice try..... cover a couple of Greek words to put your own meaning into the text.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(13) If we believe not.—Better rendered, if we are faithless—that is, untrue to the vows of our Christian profession. The faithlessness implies more than mere unbelief in any of the fundamental doctrines of the faith, such as the Resurrection of the Lord or His divinity.Yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.—Those who have understood these words as containing soothing, comforting voices for the sinner, for the faithless Christian who has left his first love, are gravely mistaken. The passage is one of distinct severity—may even be termed one of the sternest in the Book of Life; for it tells how it is impossible even for the pitiful Redeemer to forgive in the future life. “He cannot deny Himself”—cannot treat the faithless as though he were faithful—cannot act as though faithfulness and faithlessness were one and the same thing. The Christian teacher, such as Timothy, and the members of his flock likewise, must remember that, sure and certain as are the promises of glory and happiness to those who love the Lord and try to live His life, so surely will fall the chastisement on all who are faithless and untrue.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful - This cannot mean that, if we live in sin, he will certainly save us, as if he had made any promise to the elect, or formed any purpose that he would save them; whatever might be their conduct; because:(1) he had just said that if we deny him he will deny us; and,(2) there is no such promise in the Bible, and no such purpose has been formed. The promise is, that be that is a believer shall be saved, and there is no purpose to save any but such as lead holy lives. The meaning must be, that if we are unbelieving and unfaithful, Christ will remain true to his word, and we cannot hope to be saved. The object of the apostle evidently is, to excite Timothy to fidelity in the performance of duty, and to encourage him to bear trials, by the assurance that we cannot hope to escape if we are not faithful to the cause of the Saviour. This interpretation accords with the design which he had in view.He cannot deny himself - Implying that it would be a denial of his very nature to save those who are unfaithful. He is holy; and how can he save one who is unholy? His very nature is purity; and how can he save one who has no purity? Let no one, then, suppose that, because he is elected, he is safe, if he lives in sin. The electing purpose of God, indeed, makes salvation sure; but it is only for those who lead righteous lives. Nothing would be mere dishonorable for God than to resolve to save a man that lived habitually in sin; and if that were the doctrine of election, it would deserve all the opprobrium that has ever been heaped upon it.
You have WordSearch Bible software..... you might ought to use it for its true purpose.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(13) If we believe not.—Better rendered, if we are faithless—that is, untrue to the vows of our Christian profession. The faithlessness implies more than mere unbelief in any of the fundamental doctrines of the faith, such as the Resurrection of the Lord or His divinity.Yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.—Those who have understood these words as containing soothing, comforting voices for the sinner, for the faithless Christian who has left his first love, are gravely mistaken. The passage is one of distinct severity—may even be termed one of the sternest in the Book of Life; for it tells how it is impossible even for the pitiful Redeemer to forgive in the future life. “He cannot deny Himself”—cannot treat the faithless as though he were faithful—cannot act as though faithfulness and faithlessness were one and the same thing. The Christian teacher, such as Timothy, and the members of his flock likewise, must remember that, sure and certain as are the promises of glory and happiness to those who love the Lord and try to live His life, so surely will fall the chastisement on all who are faithless and untrue.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful - This cannot mean that, if we live in sin, he will certainly save us, as if he had made any promise to the elect, or formed any purpose that he would save them; whatever might be their conduct; because:(1) he had just said that if we deny him he will deny us; and,(2) there is no such promise in the Bible, and no such purpose has been formed. The promise is, that be that is a believer shall be saved, and there is no purpose to save any but such as lead holy lives. The meaning must be, that if we are unbelieving and unfaithful, Christ will remain true to his word, and we cannot hope to be saved. The object of the apostle evidently is, to excite Timothy to fidelity in the performance of duty, and to encourage him to bear trials, by the assurance that we cannot hope to escape if we are not faithful to the cause of the Saviour. This interpretation accords with the design which he had in view.He cannot deny himself - Implying that it would be a denial of his very nature to save those who are unfaithful. He is holy; and how can he save one who is unholy? His very nature is purity; and how can he save one who has no purity? Let no one, then, suppose that, because he is elected, he is safe, if he lives in sin. The electing purpose of God, indeed, makes salvation sure; but it is only for those who lead righteous lives. Nothing would be mere dishonorable for God than to resolve to save a man that lived habitually in sin; and if that were the doctrine of election, it would deserve all the opprobrium that has ever been heaped upon it.
You have WordSearch Bible software..... you might ought to use it for its true purpose.
Great job mailmandan!...to add to your excellent grace-based exhortation..here is one about the "tasting " part and Hebrews 6..
There is a difference between tasting and drinking......Jesus knew of this concept too..
Matthew 27:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
Matthew 26:27-28 (NASB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;
[SUP]28 [/SUP]for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
John 7:37-38 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
[SUP]38 [/SUP] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 4:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
As you have stated - 1 Corinthians 12:13 says drink into one Spirit, not taste into one Spirit
Commentaries.
I personally love to read from commentaries and have about 1/2 dozen or so that I regularly view on some subject.
There is an inherent problem with going by commentaries to determine truth - they can be giving out what their denomination has taught them in the past and so we "could be" in another church tradition type of situation being perpetuated.
For example - some in the Pentecostal religion believe that true Christians born from above can lose salvation as in being joined as one spirit with the Lord and that the Father sends His beloved children to hell, so all commentaries that " go with this belief" are then cited as being "legitimate sources of truth".
But in reality - they are just expressing their own religious views on a passage.
Commentaries are basically what the author himself thinks about a passage or certain doctrine which is absolutely fine. I find that I get a part from one and a part from a different commentary and the Spirit of God uses them all in some aspect to reveal what He is speaking to me about.
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W
how false prophets appear to be like a lamb, but speak the language of the dragon, Rev 13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWrMttXSaWo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWrMttXSaWo