Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok guys. There is a difference between a one off event, eating the bread of the new
covenant, and abiding in the bread of the new covenant through ones life and into heaven.

.

ok everyone, I lnow this person does not get it (we can pray)

But jesus told us in this very passage what he meant, and if people like this man would actually study john 6 and let go of their blinders they would see this.

John 6: 26 - 27 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

1. It was the day after jesus fed 5000, Jesus said, do not look for food which perishes, but which endured to eternal life, which I will give you.

in other words, as apposed to food we eat, which we have to eat daily, the food he came to give will never lose its power. one can eat it once and never die

vs 35 - 40 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

2. Whoever eats will never hunger or thirst, Jesus said whoever comes will never hnger, whoever believes will never thirst. Never means never But people like the poster does not see this..

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

3. As apposed to those who do not believe, Whoever does believe it is Gods will that they will never be lost, It will be raised on the last day, It has eternal life, There is no iffs about it, God said he will.. It is a one time thing. no matter what the poster wants you to believe

47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[g] has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

4, Here again, Whoever believes has (not might have, not may have, not has right now but it can be lost) Eternal (not conditional) life, Whoever eats this bread, unlike the manna which again they had to eat every day, will never die, Not might not die, Not will never die as long as they do this or do that, WILL NEVER DIE, and has GODS ASSURANCE, oh and if you had any question, He said THEY WILL LIVE FOREVER.

But no. The postor says this is a foolish thing, this is not a one time event, you must EARN the right to get these things, When God says otherwise, He calls jesus a liar. Lets all pray he wakes up, and finds Gods truth. Because there is hope for us all.


and there is more, I did a whole write up on John 6 and this event,, And it just goes deeper and saying the same spiritual truths,, A truth to many people are denying,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How do you get that Paul was talking about unbelievers in 2 Tim 2? I cannot see the context there.

Is all of 1 John and especially 1 John 2is warning us agaisnt Gnostic doctrine or

Your supposition, and I might be wrong, so clarify it if I am, is that the people in 1 John 2, came for the truth, stayed and were exposed to the truth and were just mental assenting of the truth and then left and then and only then became deniers of Christ. If this is what you are saying then that is not found to be accurate in context.

John is saying in all of 1 John and especially 1 John 2 that Gnostic doctrine and the spirit of antichrist was ALREADY in the church and had already infiltrated it and as false religion does, it deceives people and it moves on, when the truth was exposed about the false religion. This is what he meant when he said they went out from us, they went out from us because they were exposed by the truth that their teachings were a spirit of antichrist.

These people in 1 John 2 had come to the church to spread their Gnostic and antichrist doctrine. This is why 1 John was written, to warn us of what Gnostic and antichrist false doctrine is all about.

These people were not mental assenting to the truth and then left and then denied Christ and were never saved to begin with...they had intentional motivation to destroy the church through a Gnostic doctrine and they were enabled by by a spirit of antichrist.

Given this context 1 John 2 is not talking about salvation at all. 1 John 2.26 tells us why he wrote what he did

[SUP]26 [/SUP]These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.<<<<<<<<<<<<

Gnostics did not believe the supreme being, Jesus, ever came in the flesh, and was only a human whose divinity was achieved through gnosis only.


This is all that 1 John is about, combating the Gnostic doctrine and spirit of antichrist, which simply says-Jesus was only a human with no divine powers.

I do not see a difference

I see that people come to all churches, And some are saved and some are not. That some people will leave and deny christ, And john is tryng to let us know that these people where never saved, if they had saved they never would have left.

This is different from prodigal children, who do not deny who their father is, they just want to try to live on their own again (and fail, like I did)

Any church you go to. even the church timothy was in charge of, Will have true believers and non believers, why you think that no non believers would be in any church, even timothies I do not understand

what I do know is the bible must never contradict, Paul can not say people can become an antichrist and he lost his salvation, Why John says these same people were never saved to begin with, and thats why they left.

I think this gnostic thing is taken to far. I have never heard that until I got in here, and because of it I have heard the strangest interpretations of Johns letters I have ever heard,

we still have the issue of eternal life. Given at the moment of faith. (not at the end of our life as some want us to believe) If that can be lost for any reason, how can we, or God, call it eternal life?

 

[Meggido]

Self made righteousness - a righteousness which comes from ones own doing, from ones own power. Done in the power of the flesh. Vs Gods righteousness which comes from depending on the power of God, and is witnessed by serving others, and placing the needs of all others (even our enemies) above ourself. Also called the law of love. Anything done for the benefit of self. to gain something for self, or to earn a wage or reward is done out of self made righteousness. (note, a child of God does not work to earn reward. the reward is the last thing on his mind, If he gets them, great, if not, even greater, as long as the person he is serving gets something, Like Christ, that was all he wants, Also note. Christ deserves everything, we deserve hell. SO ANYTHING we get outside of hell is undeserved. A true child of God understand this. Which is why he has the capability to love others, because he understands, apart from Gods own love, he would have NOTHING

DIY religion - I am saved, I maintain my salvation, or I am ultimately in the end saved by my works. I may have started my salvation journey by faith alone, but it is maintained by works.

A true child of God understands we deserve hell and are undeserving, but once you become a sin-forgiven son, that will still sin, this should not drive our thinking anymore, should it?

You seem to imply, and I could be wrong, tell me if I am not understanding you correctly, that we should be constantly reminding ourselves of how wretched we are and undeserving we are. Where does it say we should do this in the Bible?

Did the prodigal son return home, receive/recover back all the Father gave him and then go around the house and constantly remind himself and anyone around him how wretched his past transgression/condition was and how undeserving he was of his Fathers restoration?

You talk and agree about position of righteousness and other great truths, but take 10 steps back proclaiming, well we are a worm still, and I deserve hell, pat me on the back for my pride in my personal acknowledgement for what a sinner and stooge I still am.

Honestly EG are you a hell bound sinner or a heaven bound saint? If you are saint, think and talk like one.

If God does not remember our sins, and sees us righteous and justified through the shed blood of his son why do you seem to think we should remember our past condition, our sins and how deserving we are of hell!?!?!??

This is Satan talking, not the Holy Spirit. Satan loves for us to remember our sins and wretched we are and how undeserving we are of being made a son webcast it will keep us from our future in Christ Jesus.

This will cause major defense mechanism to go up and people will get put off and upset, but it needs to be said.

The practice that I should remember how wretched I am and how undeserving I am of salvation and then broadcast it out to others in the body is not what it appears.

Too many, they are taught this practice by churches, pastors and teachers because it is taught that one must have a contrite heart and broken spirit before God and it will show my thankfulness to him and humility and that I am learning to be made humble. This is a deceptive lie form Satan.

Why and How !?!?, you ask.

Because by doing this you put the focus on YOURSELF or I......I am undeserving, I am wretched, I am unworthy, I...I...I..

Sounds so spiritual and full of a humble spirit, but in reality it is a false humility built upon you being the central part o f your conversation

If Satan can get your eyes on you, he knows they are not on Jesus and if they are not on Jesus you are no threat to him and will not ever come into revelation of your true identity in Christ.

Satan wants you to think how undeserving you are of Salvation, he wants you to remember your past condition and wretched you still are, and what a sinner you still are....The accuser of the brethren still seems to have his voice in your ear.

If God does not remember our sins, and sees us righteous, holy, set apart. forgiven and delivered and justified through the shed blood of his son, he wants us to see ourselves in this same way and that we were/are deserving of his plan of redemption.

The word tell us--

Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

This is what the Prodigal son did, yes humbly he went and was hopeful top just be a lowly ole sinner, er servant and not a son. He returned and was made a SON, nothing less

It does not tell us--

Therefore let us draw near with fear that we know we are undeserving, very wretched, still a sinner to the throne of judgement, condemnation, false humility so that we may receive memories form our past to keep us in line and find how wretched we really still are to continue just hangin on until that final day.

This seems to be you and few others here, yet you claim all the benefits, but continue to not see that overcoming happens here and final overcoming happens later.

 

[Stephen63]

[/I]Amen! [/FONT][/COLOR] These Hebrews had tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one may or may not decide to accept and truly receive what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we taste into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

I see certain ones refuse the rest of those verses.....

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (saved)
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (saved)
6 If they shall fall away (from salvation), to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I can't fall away from being a fireman if I never was one.

Sinners don't partake of the Holy Ghost.

To be renewed again to repentance can't be done by a sinner who has never repented in the first place.

Only christians can taste the cup of salvation.

Jesus wouldn't need to be crucified afresh to a sinner who's never accepted Him yet.

Sinners aren't to taste heavenly gifts, especially salvation.

All these verses are steadfast & literally true, so please accept them as such.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How do you get that Paul was talking about unbelievers in 2 Tim 2? I cannot see the context there.

Is all of 1 John and especially 1 John 2is warning us agaisnt Gnostic doctrine or

Your supposition, and I might be wrong, so clarify it if I am, is that the people in 1 John 2, came for the truth, stayed and were exposed to the truth and were just mental assenting of the truth and then left and then and only then became deniers of Christ. If this is what you are saying then that is not found to be accurate in context.

John is saying in all of 1 John and especially 1 John 2 that Gnostic doctrine and the spirit of antichrist was ALREADY in the church and had already infiltrated it and as false religion does, it deceives people and it moves on, when the truth was exposed about the false religion. This is what he meant when he said they went out from us, they went out from us because they were exposed by the truth that their teachings were a spirit of antichrist.

These people in 1 John 2 had come to the church to spread their Gnostic and antichrist doctrine. This is why 1 John was written, to warn us of what Gnostic and antichrist false doctrine is all about.

These people were not mental assenting to the truth and then left and then denied Christ and were never saved to begin with...they had intentional motivation to destroy the church through a Gnostic doctrine and they were enabled by by a spirit of antichrist.

Given this context 1 John 2 is not talking about salvation at all. 1 John 2.26 tells us why he wrote what he did

[SUP]26 [/SUP]These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.<<<<<<<<<<<<

Gnostics did not believe the supreme being, Jesus, ever came in the flesh, and was only a human whose divinity was achieved through gnosis only.


This is all that 1 John is about, combating the Gnostic doctrine and spirit of antichrist, which simply says-Jesus was only a human with no divine powers.

By the way, as far as faithless and deny himself. as far as I remember, the only thing God ever promised is eternal life, Adoption as sons, The seal of the spirit, Redemption, Justification, That we would never die, and he would raise us n the last day, He also said he would give us rest from our work (earning our way to him)


He never promised health, wealth, good things will happen, a great live apart from trial and tribulation, or anything of the sort.

so when we lose faith in those things, and we do not get them, God does not deny himself when we do not have them, He only denyis himself when he denys the promises he did make.

thus to deny a person eternal life, is to deny himself. because he made that promise based on what he did, not on what we did, are doing or will do.

at least this is the way I see it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A true child of God understands we deserve hell and are undeserving, but once you become a sin-forgiven son, that will still sin, this should not drive our thinking anymore, should it?

never said it would, but what it will not do, is make us think we have made it, we are sinless, we do nto have to try anymore, we are holy etc etc, like some people love to proclaim about themselves.

In fact, if anything we should be so focused on serving others, that self should not even cross our mind, because we have faith that God is going to take care of every need.

You seem to imply, and I could be wrong, tell me if I am not understanding you correctly, that we should be constantly reminding ourselves of how wretched we are and undeserving we are. Where does it say we should do this in the Bible?

No not saying that, Just trying to help a person who thinks he is so holy and righteous that a person who is born of God knows he will never achieve Gods standard. I do wake up every morning, and praise God I did not wak up in hell, a place that I deserve, and the rest of my day is out of gratitude trying to see who I can serve, and what can I do out of appreciation for Gods love

Did the prodigal son return home, receive/recover back all the Father gave him and then go around the house and constantly remind himself and anyone around him how wretched his past transgression/condition was and how undeserving he was of his Fathers restoration?

I am sure when he had a thought of how deserving he was, or how he earned the right to have those things, His time away from the father came back, and he quickly was reminded of why he had them to begin with.

i know this happens to me and many of my friends, do we keep thinking about it? No

You talk and agree about position of righteousness and other great truths, but take 10 steps back proclaiming, well we are a worm still, and I deserve hell, pat me on the back for my pride in my personal acknowledgement for what a sinner and stooge I still am.

You do not seem to be listening to me at all. Or trying to understand who I am talking to and why I say things. I suggest we not assume??

Honestly EG are you a hell bound sinner or a heaven bound saint? If you are saint, think and talk like one.

SMH

I deserve hell But I am a heaven bound saint, Because of this, I will never puff myself up.. Please once again, try to understand the context of my words. It was in response to another poster who declared what he thought seof righteiousness and diy salvation was, I just did not quote his post.

I will stop answering here, and hope you try to understand where i was coming from first. otherwise, it may not go well..

 

[Meggido]

Amen! Judas Iscariot was a good example of someone who tasted, yet he was an unbelieving, unclean devil who permanently fell away and betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

Peter also fell away, but repented and was restored.

Luke 22, John 19-21

 

[Stephen63]

Commentaries.

I personally love to read from commentaries and have about 1/2 dozen or so that I regularly view on some subject.

There is an inherent problem with going by commentaries to determine truth - they can be giving out what their denomination has taught them in the past and so we "could be" in another church tradition type of situation being perpetuated.

For example - some in the Pentecostal religion believe that true Christians born from above can lose salvation as in being joined as one spirit with the Lord and that the Father sends His beloved children to hell, so all commentaries that " go with this belief" are then cited as being "legitimate sources of truth".

But in reality - they are just expressing their own religious views on a passage.

Commentaries are basically what the author himself thinks about a passage or certain doctrine which is absolutely fine. I find that I get a part from one and a part from a different commentary and the Spirit of God uses them all in some aspect to reveal what He is speaking to me about.

Most cult followers refuse commentaries.

A single theologian had more education and understanding in his little finger than all you easy believists combined!

All I see here is malice & sarcasm against people you don't even know.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see certain ones refuse the rest of those verses.....

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (saved)
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (saved)
6 If they shall fall away (from salvation), to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I can't fall away from being a fireman if I never was one.

Sinners don't partake of the Holy Ghost.

To be renewed again to repentance can't be done by a sinner who has never repented in the first place.

Only christians can taste the cup of salvation.

Jesus wouldn't need to be crucified afresh to a sinner who's never accepted Him yet.

Sinners aren't to taste heavenly gifts, especially salvation.

All these verses are steadfast & literally true, so please accept them as such.

Then you should see yourself refusing the rest of the verses.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.


as paul said, He may have seen all his reward burnt in the fire, be he himself will be saved even though as through fire.

 

[Meggido]

I do not see a difference

I see that people come to all churches, And some are saved and some are not. That some people will leave and deny christ, And john is tryng to let us know that these people where never saved, if they had saved they never would have left.

This is different from prodigal children, who do not deny who their father is, they just want to try to live on their own again (and fail, like I did)

Any church you go to. even the church timothy was in charge of, Will have true believers and non believers, why you think that no non believers would be in any church, even timothies I do not understand

what I do know is the bible must never contradict, Paul can not say people can become an antichrist and he lost his salvation, Why John says these same people were never saved to begin with, and thats why they left.

I think this gnostic thing is taken to far. I have never heard that until I got in here, and because of it I have heard the strangest interpretations of Johns letters I have ever heard,

we still have the issue of eternal life. Given at the moment of faith. (not at the end of our life as some want us to believe) If that can be lost for any reason, how can we, or God, call it eternal life?

The Gnostic thing was real, maybe instead of outright dismissal, you should study up on it and then come to your own conclusions, rather outright dismissal because it seems strange.

There are still many self professing Christians today that Believe Jesus was not divinity in the flesh, he was just a human.

I was taught as you were about 1 John and never believed the Gnostic application it is about. That changed when we were part of a church that used 1 John 4 on prayer lines to try to convince people they were demonized.

They would ask people did Jesus come in the flesh, if they said no, deliverance ministry would start, it was a joke and not right at all. I knew what my past Calvinist and Baptist upbringing said 1 John 4 was about and saw what the charismatics and WOF said it was a bout but none of it made sense and I never could get settled on it.

A wonderful wise old mentor of mine that was Methodist and then a Church of the Nazarene brother, begin personally teaching me all of 1 John along with Church history....

The Holy Spirit gave me peaceful revelation that the only context that fit with 1 John was warning against Gnostic doctrine enabled by the spirit of antichrist.

Your mileage may vary, but wisdom is searching out a matter...not outright dismissal because it may not make sense

 

[mailmandan]

I see certain ones refuse the rest of those verses.....

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (saved)
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (saved)
6 If they shall fall away (from salvation), to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I can't fall away from being a fireman if I never was one.

Sinners don't partake of the Holy Ghost.

To be renewed again to repentance can't be done by a sinner who has never repented in the first place.

Only christians can taste the cup of salvation.

Jesus wouldn't need to be crucified afresh to a sinner who's never accepted Him yet.

Sinners aren't to taste heavenly gifts, especially salvation.

All these verses are steadfast & literally true, so please accept them as such.

Partakers describes one who shares with someone else as an associate. It speaks of those who are participators in something. Participating in. Accomplice in. Comrade. Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews in the context of believers (Hebrews 3:14 - "For we have become partakers of Christ") and thus the statement that the readers have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit seems "at first glance" to be support that genuine believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the Holy Spirit indwelling believers.

It's very plausible to envision an individual becoming a sharer in or partaker of the Holy Spirit (His pre-salvation ministry - convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come) by temporarily responding to His drawing power intended to lead sinners to Christ. The translation "shared" implies something done in company with others and before salvation all believers shared in the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit Who drew them to salvation, yet these Hebrews are still at a crossroad by merely tasting and not yet drinking into one Spirit.

*Note also that the writer of Hebrews does not state that these individuals "received the gift of the Holy Spirit," or were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or were "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or were "possessors of the Holy Spirit's pledge (guarantee) of future inheritance."

You added the words "saved" and "from salvation" in your personal commentary above, but those words are not found in the text. In regards to "restore them again to repentance," the wording alone does not specify whether the previous repentance was merely outward or whether it was genuine repentance that was accompanied by saving faith in Christ. Restore them again to "salvation" would be a definitive statement, but it's not in the text. Tasting is still not drinking. *Christians drink into one Spirit and do not merely taste into one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and permanently falling away do not accompany salvation.

I've heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it teaches a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." *NOWHERE does the Bible use the words "lost salvation." I accept the truth that God preserves His saints forever (Psalm 37:28) and that whom God justified, these He also glorified (Romans 8:30) and that believers are sealed in Him (Christ) until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30).

 

[Meggido]

By the way, as far as faithless and deny himself. as far as I remember, the only thing God ever promised is eternal life, Adoption as sons, The seal of the spirit, Redemption, Justification, That we would never die, and he would raise us n the last day, He also said he would give us rest from our work (earning our way to him)


He never promised health, wealth, good things will happen, a great live apart from trial and tribulation, or anything of the sort.

so when we lose faith in those things, and we do not get them, God does not deny himself when we do not have them, He only denyis himself when he denys the promises he did make.

thus to deny a person eternal life, is to deny himself. because he made that promise based on what he did, not on what we did, are doing or will do.

at least this is the way I see it.

I am not at all espousing health or wealth buddy....just so you know...

 

[mailmandan]

Peter also fell away, but repented and was restored.

Luke 22, John 19-21

Yes, actually the remaining 11 disciples fell away, but this was only temporary (Matthew 26:31) and we see that a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again.. (Proverbs 24:16). What about those who set out to be disciples of Christ, but then permanently fall away because they were offended by the words of Jesus? What did Jesus say about them in John 6:64? Did not believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not at all espousing health or wealth buddy....just so you know...

I never said you were. In fact, I know you do not. forgive me if you thought i was infering that,

I am just show what God did promise, and what he would have to deny if he were to deny himself.

 

[Meggido]

never said it would, but what it will not do, is make us think we have made it, we are sinless, we do nto have to try anymore, we are holy etc etc, like some people love to proclaim about themselves.

In fact, if anything we should be so focused on serving others, that self should not even cross our mind, because we have faith that God is going to take care of every need.



No not saying that, Just trying to help a person who thinks he is so holy and righteous that a person who is born of God knows he will never achieve Gods standard. I do wake up every morning, and praise God I did not wak up in hell, a place that I deserve, and the rest of my day is out of gratitude trying to see who I can serve, and what can I do out of appreciation for Gods love



I am sure when he had a thought of how deserving he was, or how he earned the right to have those things, His time away from the father came back, and he quickly was reminded of why he had them to begin with.

i know this happens to me and many of my friends, do we keep thinking about it? No



You do not seem to be listening to me at all. Or trying to understand who I am talking to and why I say things. I suggest we not assume??





SMH

I deserve hell But I am a heaven bound saint, Because of this, I will never puff myself up.. Please once again, try to understand the context of my words. It was in response to another poster who declared what he thought seof righteiousness and diy salvation was, I just did not quote his post.

I will stop answering here, and hope you try to understand where i was coming from first. otherwise, it may not go well..

Good stuff, thanks for the civil conversation bro, its still all good

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Gnostic thing was real, maybe instead of outright dismissal, you should study up on it and then come to your own conclusions, rather outright dismissal because it seems strange.

There are still many self professing Christians today that Believe Jesus was not divinity in the flesh, he was just a human.

I was taught as you were about 1 John and never believed the Gnostic application it is about. That changed when we were part of a church that used 1 John 4 on prayer lines to try to convince people they were demonized.

They would ask people did Jesus come in the flesh, if they said no, deliverance ministry would start, it was a joke and not right at all. I knew what my past Calvinist and Baptist upbringing said 1 John 4 was about and saw what the charismatics and WOF said it was a bout but none of it made sense and I never could get settled on it.

A wonderful wise old mentor of mine that was Methodist and then a Church of the Nazarene brother, begin personally teaching me all of 1 John along with Church history....

The Holy Spirit gave me peaceful revelation that the only context that fit with 1 John was warning against Gnostic doctrine enabled by the spirit of antichrist.

Your mileage may vary, but wisdom is searching out a matter...not outright dismissal because it may not make sense

As I tried to say earlier, You should stop assuming things, I have studied it, And I disagree with it, I do not just take the word of God for granted, I had to teach 1 john in church, I did nnot take that lightly,,

I have studied it, And I do not take it like some people do to try to explain John There are far to many other variables to also consider..

I take John at his word, just like I explained in that post.. Can I ask why you did not respond to the rest of my post?

As for timothy, You still have many other issues that just the first john issue, Which we will have to agree to disagree on 1 john.. .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good stuff, thanks for the civil conversation bro, its still all good

Sorry,, I get angry that I even have to tell people that we still deserve hell if left apart from God.. because they think they are righteous, and holy, and deserving of heaven, and want to spread that gospel of works to others. (I know you are not one of them)

So it is a topic I wish I never had to talk about..

forgive me if I cam across as rough.. I did not mean it

 

[Stephen63]

how false prophets appear to be like a lamb, but speak the language of the dragon, Rev 13

[video=youtube;xWrMttXSaWo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWrMttXSaWo[/video]

There.....

 

[stonesoffire]

Oh yes there are and was Hebrew Christians. You missed the book of Hebrews that was written to the Hebrew Christians. The Hebrews and the Israelites are related. Abraham was the first to become a Hebrew,because he settled in the land called Hebron. Sarai's handmaid had a son by Abraham, called Ismael,so that made Ismael a Hebrew because of his Father Abraham. When Jacob was born ,God changed his name to Israel,your first Israelite ,but Hebrew by the seed of Abraham. they are all related to each other.The Hebrews from Ishmael and the Israelites. COUSINS.

Hebrews come from Eber. Not sure which bible states this. Might be the Amplified. And I dont' really think it is important. Just something I noted in my reading once.

 

[notuptome]

I see certain ones refuse the rest of those verses.....

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (saved)
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (saved)
6 If they shall fall away (from salvation), to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I can't fall away from being a fireman if I never was one.

Sinners don't partake of the Holy Ghost.

To be renewed again to repentance can't be done by a sinner who has never repented in the first place.

Only christians can taste the cup of salvation.

Jesus wouldn't need to be crucified afresh to a sinner who's never accepted Him yet.

Sinners aren't to taste heavenly gifts, especially salvation.

All these verses are steadfast & literally true, so please accept them as such.

It is long understood and taught that this passage of scripture presents a hypothetical impossibility. It is impossible for those who have been saved to fall away from grace. The reason is that it is impossible for such a one to be renewed to grace as that would put Christ to open shame.

Those who teach loss of salvation are loathe to teach that one cannot repent and be restored but that is what the verse teaches.

The problem is that it also places this passage in conflict with other passages teaching the security of the believer. Romans 8:1 is just such a verse and Eph 4:30.

How could a believer ever experience the peace of God if they knew they could become lost and never able to repent again?

For the cause of Christ
Roger