Not By Works

[PeterJens]

The reward of eternal life. Man also earns his reward of eternal damnation..Man earns his own just reward, Matt. 16-27

However, we do receive different rewards in this life time which are blessings from God..Matt. 6-4, 6-6, 6-18.

Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven:(the reward of eternal life) for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

. Matthew 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? (how can eternal life be gained in this manner of respecter of[persons) do not even the publicans the same?

Matthew 6:1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. (no eternal life)

Matthew 10:42And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, (earnestly dispense the gospel)verily I say unto you,he shall in no wise lose his reward (if so done he will not lose eternal life)

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (righteousness unto eternal life, 'the worthy", and iniquity unto eternal damnation, the unworthy)
Luke 6:23Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: (eternal life)for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets

Luke 6:35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, (great is the reward of eternal life) and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Luke 23:41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: (rewarded eternal life, or eternal damnation, according to the works done in the flesh) but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; (the reward of eternal damnation) and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

to be continued

It is an interesting proposition, the reward being entry into the Kingdom of Heaven.
There is some validity to this proposition.

Let us think of the opposite to the statement.
To be unrighteous, is to be under Gods judgement.
To be impure, is to be under Gods judgement.
To not mourn over sin and be grieved at the damage done, is to be under Gods judgement.
To not love your neighbour, is to be under Gods judgement

There is a tension between the concept of knowing Christ through the cross changes us
in our hearts, so the outflow of our hearts is righteousness and good deeds, so the reward
for this reality is life eternal, but it is not the reason we are like this but the consequence of
Gods work in our hearts.

For those who do not look on Jesus with love and see the law and His commands as such
wisdom and blessing, none of this makes sense. But this is unfortunately a judgement on
their experience of Christ, and the hardness of their hearts rather than anything else.

And they will react with rejection of such sentiments, because truly for them it feels wrong
and like condemnation, because that is where they are. We cannot escape our position, and
our current perspective, but we can choose to sow to the Spirit or to the flesh.
Repentance, confession and exercising faith is sowing to the Spirit, rejection and rebellion is
sowing to the flesh and to judgement.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I wish this were true, but simple observation shows it to be completely false.
Spirit filled people really do fall from their faith in God and return to the world.

So John lied?

Thanks, I will let God know John the apostle was not trustworthy and should not have written the book of John and his three epistles when I see him in heaven.

Yes people fall back as prodigal children, I did for 5 years, I did not live Like I did before I was saved however, I could not, Every time I tried, the chastening of God got in my way, Yes, I committed some sins, Yes, I did some bad things, But I will still my fathers son, He left the flock, He came to find me, And since i was his sheep. I heard his voice, and I returned.

Other people (who never had faith to begin with) end up leaving because they never had true faith to begin with, Years go by, they never come back, You look at that, they are the same as they were before they claimed christ, if not worse, And they do not come back

Why? They were never his sheep. so when he calls them, they do not hear his voice.

I wish I could tell you that you were right, But I am sorry I can not, You are wrong, John is not a liar, he is true.

 

[mailmandan]

I hear that all the time

Only one problem, In non of those passages was the law in context, or even spoken about. Nor was it said specifically what works they were talking about (if they were talking about a specific group)

so they have to add to the word, or twist it, to even get it to appear paul was saying what they claim.

Amen! In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of obedience" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. So which good works could a Christian accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Works-salvationists try to dissect the MORAL aspect from the law but it doesn't work. So the "saved by works of obedience" and just "not works of the law" argument is bogus.

 

[Stephen63]

The other thing about false prophets is they often times develop what I call the Elijah Delusion....they think they are the only one that see things as God does and the only ones battling the legions they perceive are coming against them....yet 7,000 more are in the fight....

You fit the Elijah delusion perfectly...

It seems to me you are purposely trying to shut him down with narcissistic projection.

You definitely don't like what he's saying..... & acting as if you really have to stop him.

Maybe the readers need to take a hard look at what willybob has to say.

 

[FranC]

Another example of how you continue to confuse descriptive passages of Scripture with prescriptive passages of Scripture.

It's the same with Romans 2:6-10. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but is a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose the condition of our heart and whether or not we were saved.

MMD

You give it your best shot.

But do you realize how you need SO MANY SENTENCES to describe something that Jesus said in 3 sentences? (in my NASB)

Why do you supppose this is? Because you refuse to take the bible in its literal sense. Jesus made it easy so even uneducated persons could understand it (and they do), but YOU want to make it difficult.

Descriptive Passages
Prescriptive Passages

MY oh my. I think I need a PhD to read the bible!

Jesus said:

THOSE WHO COMMITTED GOOD DEEDS, to a resurrection of LIFE
THOSE WHO COMMITTED EVIL DEEDS, to a resurrection of condemnation.

See. Two sentences. And everybody reading along understands them.


Do you realize that Jesus didn't talk about salvation as we understand it today.
He talked about being memebers of the Kingdom, about being good-hearted, doing what He commanded, being born of the spirit so that our spirit controls us and not our sin nature.

We're going to have to do a thread on the Kingdom...
It's very misunderstood.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not sure I did EG.
This thread moves along too quickly.

Also, there should be a way for us to be advised when someone posts SPECIFICALLY to a person.
It would really help.

I'd be happy to read it if you know where it is.
Otherwise, no matter, I have love for my brothers in Christ.
Sometimes I go a little off the edge because too much is going on at once.

Post number 15655, It was addressed to you, It was in response to a post you made to me If you want I will cut and past it.

here is a link,, I know sometimes it changed pages on us before we read all on the previous page.

link http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/146296-not-works-783.html

 

[FranC]

Did you even read what I posted?

1. Abraham committed adultery BECAUSE HE DID NOT HAVE FAITH IN THE PROMISED
2. Abraham failed to trust God with his wife's life BECAUSE HE DID NOT HAVE FAITH IN THE PROMISES

According to your view, Abraham was never saved. Since he seems to have never had faith in Gods promise concerning his son

Yet Abraham did have faith in other areas. As proven by hebrews 11.

You can not have it both ways bud.

And again,

God said he had faith in Gen 15, If Abraham did nto have faith, God is a liar,

Abraham committed adultery?

 

[FranC]

Post number 15655, It was addressed to you, It was in response to a post you made to me If you want I will cut and past it.

here is a link,, I know sometimes it changed pages on us before we read all on the previous page.

link http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/146296-not-works-783.html

Thanks.
Right after lunch.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Abraham committed adultery?

what do you call it when you sleep with someone not your wife?

 

[mailmandan]

MMD

You give it your best shot.

Yet unfortunately, the truth continues to go right over your head.

But do you realize how you need SO MANY SENTENCES to describe something that Jesus said in 3 sentences? (in my NASB)

So many sentences? My post was not that long and I thoroughly explained the truth to you.

Why do you supppose this is? Because you refuse to take the bible in its literal sense. Jesus made it easy so even uneducated persons could understand it (and they do), but YOU want to make it difficult.

Descriptive Passages
Prescriptive Passages

MY oh my. I think I need a PhD to read the bible!

It doesn't take a PhD to figure out the truth here. Don't be so dramatic.

*Descriptive Passages - "have done what is good/have done what is evil" (John 5:28-29); "everyone who does good/everyone who does evil" (Romans 2:6:9-10).

*Prescriptive Passages - "whoever believes in shall not perish/is not condemned/shall receive eternal life" (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26). Simple!

Jesus said:

THOSE WHO COMMITTED GOOD DEEDS, to a resurrection of LIFE
THOSE WHO COMMITTED EVIL DEEDS, to a resurrection of condemnation.

See. Two sentences. And everybody reading along understands them.

Everybody who truly understands those verses understand that those are DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture and not prescriptive passages of scripture.

Do you realize that Jesus didn't talk about salvation as we understand it today.
He talked about being memebers of the Kingdom, about being good-hearted, doing what He commanded, being born of the spirit so that our spirit controls us and not our sin nature.

We're going to have to do a thread on the Kingdom...
It's very misunderstood.

You just don't get it.

 

[PeterJens]

what do you call it when you sleep with someone not your wife?

So after living ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai gave her Egyptian slave to Abram as a second wife.
Gen 16:3

Hagar was Abram's second wife. This is not adultery, but multiple wives.

 

[PHart]

Did you even read what I posted?

1. Abraham committed adultery BECAUSE HE DID NOT HAVE FAITH IN THE PROMISED
2. Abraham failed to trust God with his wife's life BECAUSE HE DID NOT HAVE FAITH IN THE PROMISES

According to your view, Abraham was never saved. Since he seems to have never had faith in Gods promise concerning his son

Yet Abraham did have faith in other areas. As proven by hebrews 11.

You can not have it both ways bud.

You really stepped in it this time. But that is what happens when one acts so arrogantly and sure of themselves.
Are you ready for what's coming? Brace yourself, it's gonna hurt. Reply to this post, then I show why you really did it this time.

(And NEVER call me 'bud'. NEVER. Lol.)

God said he had faith in Gen 15, If Abraham did nto have faith, God is a liar,

I'm not the one saying Abraham did not have faith. You are.

We're here because someone challenged me with the 'what if' scenario if Abraham had died before sacrificing Isaac. I qualified the circumstances that one must consider when answering that question because it only has a 'yes', or a 'no' answer depending on the circumstances in which Abraham would have not sacrificed Abraham.

If he didn't do it because he had to get back home to catch the game on TV, then 'yes', Abraham would be safe had he died before he had sacrificed Isaac. But if Abraham had not sacrificed Isaac BECAUSE HE NO LONGER BELIEVED THAT GOD WOULD RAISE HIM FROM THE DEAD TO KEEP HIS PROMISE then, 'yes', Abraham would die separated from God in salvation.

 

[Ariel82]

God is a trustworthy God, Thats why we obey him, (we love because he first loved us)

We do not obey him because we some how came up with the power to obey, We obey him (love) because he loved us.

Maybe we need to do a thread on what sin is.. Maybe it would help.

You can not merit salvation, At best, you may be able to merit a plush life here on earth, by doing what needs to be done to earn that life.

But heaven, We merit separation from God, Thats all we will ever merit, which is why we need grace, because apart from Grace we are doomed.

I do hope you read my post about faith and God I responded to you with. It may clear up a misgiving you have about me. and others like me

Doubt it will help....she thinks folks blame God for their sins...until she years down that strawman...it's doubtful she will hear anything spoken without making hay out of the statements.

 

[PeterJens]

Just a small observation. If the words "as a second wife" mean adultery, we are talking
a different moral framework than Gods.

That is fine, as long as it is declared, or else you get confusion.

Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
2 Tim 2:23

 

[FranC]

what do you call it when you sleep with someone not your wife?

I don't have a wife!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You really stepped in it this time. But that is what happens when one acts so arrogantly and sure of themselves.
Are you ready for what's coming? Brace yourself, it's gonna hurt. Reply to this post then I show why you really did it this time.

(And NEVER call me 'bud'. NEVER. Lol.)



I'm not the one saying Abraham did not have faith. You are.

We're here because someone challenged me with the 'what if' scenario if Abraham had died before sacrificing Isaac. I qualified the circumstances that one must consider when answering that question because it only has a 'yes', or a 'no' answer depending on the circumstances in which Abraham would have not sacrificed Abraham.

If he didn't do it because he had to get back home to catch the game on TV, then 'yes', Abraham would be safe had he died before he had sacrificed Isaac. But if Abraham had not sacrificed Isaac BECAUSE HE NO LONGER BELIEVED THAT GOD WOULD RAISE HIM FROM THE DEAD TO KEEP HIS PROMISE then, 'yes', Abraham would die separated from God in salvation.

lol..And who is the arrogant one here? (I call all people dudes even my best friend, it is a habit)

Instead of boasting of how smart you think you are. maybe you should read the entire thing. and start to actually think about the whole situation from gen 12 up to to gen 22

Abraham did have faith, God said so in Gen 15. (God does not lie, why you insist he does, well thats between you and God not for me to judge)

He lacked faith in CERTAIN AREAS OF HIS LIFE.

That lack of faith in those areas did not cause Abraham to forfeit his salvation (again you need to read Hebrews 11, Abraham already PROVED HIS FAITH by leaving his father, and by living not in the luxery of his fathers riches, at his fathers house, but in tents in a country that was not his own,

You want people to have perfect faith in all areas of their life before they are saved? they would have to be perfect. Are you perfect?

Your asking for a standard no one can live up to not even yourself

Again, As I said, James was not written for people like Abraham, God said his faith made him saved way back in Gen 15, and he reconned, considered, or imputed to abraham, righteousness (perfect standing), And God did noy lie!

As I said, Abraham already proved his faith was real LONG before Abraham had the chance to offer his son.

You see, Abraham was not perfect. He lacked faith in some areas.

But he was a doer of the word.. As proven in hebrews 11: 8-10

James is written to non doers of the word but hearers ONLY. not doers.

Nice try, I hope you had your minute of pride and it made you feel good. because thats all you will have..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't have a wife!

lol, I was speaking of abraham..

Do you have a husband? is he alive? if so, Would it be a sin if you slept with another man, even if your husband gave you permission?

 

[Stephen63]

Here's the problem. You're focusing solely on the words "fallen from grace" and allowing them to confirm the context, while disregarding the rest of it. It's like when catholics pick all the scriptures that say "fire" and then try to make a case for "purgatory".

The bit I highlighted in red makes the context clear. "You who are seeking to be justified by law" - these are people who aren't saved, but are trying to be saved by the law. So then how can they lose something they don't yet have?

So then "you've fallen from grace" in light of the correct context is saying they have rejected grace and embraced law to save them. Just like if someone were to give me their opinion a lot, I might tell them they've fallen away from scripture.

There's a connection to other Galatians scriptures.

In Galatians 3 there's mention of baby believers trying to be sanctified by the flesh. They're trying to be made perfect by the flesh, so have become entangled in that yoke of legalism. Here in Galatians 5 it mentions non believers who are trying to be be justified by the flesh. So you have some believers trying to be sanctified by the flesh and some non believers trying to be justified by the flesh.


Verse 1-3 addresses believers - warns not to fall into the trap of being sanctified by the flesh (legalism)
Verse 4 addresses non believers - those who are trying to be justified by the flesh
Verse 5-6 addresses believers



Galatians 5:1-6: Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we (because/since we) (believers) through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love"

The real problem is you take a single verse & inject "unbeliever" into it, when the context shows it's all believers.

My witnesses:
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
Ye are fallen from grace.—The Christian is justified by an act of grace, or free, unearned favour, on the part of God. He who seeks for justification in any other way loses this grace. Grace is not here a state or disposition in the believer, but a divine act or relation.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Ye are fallen from grace - That is, this would amount to apostasy from the religion of the Redeemer, and would be in fact a rejection of the grace of the gospel. That this had ever in fact occurred among true Christians the apostle does not affirm unless he affirmed that people can in fact be justified by the Law, since he makes the falling from grace a consequence of that.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
fallen from grace—Ye no longer "stand" in grace (Ro 5:2). Grace and legal righteousness cannot co-exist (Ro 4:4, 5; 11:6). Christ, by circumcision (Lu 2:21), undertook to obey all the law, and fulfil all righteousness for us: any, therefore, that now seeks to fulfil the law for himself in any degree for justifying righteousness, severs himself from the grace which flows from Christ's fulfilment of it, and becomes "a debtor to do the whole law" (Ga 5:3). The decree of the Jerusalem council had said nothing so strong as this; it had merely decided that Gentile Christians were not bound to legal observances. But the Galatians, while not pretending to be so bound, imagined there was an efficacy in them to merit a higher degree of perfection (Ga 3:3).

"By the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses let every word be established."

 

[FranC]

Doubt it will help....she thinks folks blame God for their sins...until she years down that strawman...it's doubtful she will hear anything spoken without making hay out of the statements.

Ariel,

YOUR "side" is Always saying how MY "side" tells Others what they believe.

NOW, I, personally, don't think I ever did this.

But you are doing it now.

WHEN did I ever say people blame God for their sins?

PLEASE POST THIS.

I'm more than sure that YOU misunderstood the post.

Know why?
I know what I believe more than YOU know what I believe.

Also, it would be nice if you stopped talking to Others about me.
That's knows as GOSSIPPING.

Not very nice.


Please remember to look for the post where I said that God is to blame for our sins.
Thanks.

 

[FranC]

lol, I was speaking of abraham..

Do you have a husband? is he alive? if so, Would it be a sin if you slept with another man, even if your husband gave you permission?

Is the other man cute?

Ok. Seriously now.
There's never any kidding around on this thread...
And yes, my husband is alive and living.


When Abraham "slept" with Hagar, the Egyptian maid of Sarai, it was not considered adultery.
It was a custom of the time.
The Law had not even been given yet. (the decalogue)

God was not angry.
Genesis 16:6-13