Not By Works

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Apr 30, 2016
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PART TWO


Paul calls it not just a gift but in redundant fashions calls it a “free gift” to absolutely emphasise that man cannot work for this. Cannot earn it.
Grace cannot be called grace unless it is grace. A gift cannot be a gift unless it is a gift – a free gift!
For grace to be grace, then grace accepted cannot be recalled, and likewise, for a gift to be a gift, then a gift accepted cannot be recalled.

Agreed. Grace is an attribute of God. Faith is of us but is a gift from God. No argument here.
Except that we must HOLD ON to the gift.

Colossians 1:21-23 New International Version (NIV)

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.




Of course, grace can be rejected and a gift spurned, but once accepted, the one who offered cannot then demand its return.
Grace is unmerited favour – grace accepted could never have been earned in the first place because it was unmerited. A gift is offered without contractual obligation otherwise it is not a gift, it then becomes a conditional offering.

Ephesians 2:8-9 summarises and emphasises that salvation is by grace through faith:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8-9

(Eph 2:10 belongs to this passage too, but I will come back to it later – promise!)

If our salvation is by grace through faith, as stated, and is the gift of God, and therefore not of ourselves, and not of works then man hcan have only two responses to this offer: accept it or reject it!
This is a binary choice there is no middle road of choice.
Also, if one accepts the gift, offered by grace through faith, the gift cannot be lost by works or lack thereof (otherwise it cannot be a gift, never mind a gift offered by grace)!

Only two responses. I Always make a point of this. NO MIDDLE GROUND.
What I disagree with is that the New Testament is FULL of verses stating that we MUST HOLD ON to our fath till the end.
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Peter 2:20-22 (incredible how some try to get around this one)



Lets go back to the end of Romans chapter 8:

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38-39.

These verses are not quoted out of context, this is a summary of an entire passage of Scripture devoted to one topic – assurance of salvation.
Paul's quotes every extreme that he can think of as pertaining to the topic and concludes that none of these things “shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul doesn't state here that the person could just walk away since he makes it so clear in so many other verses, some of which I've posted.

Eternal Security, Assurance of Salvation, OSAS, is NOT biblical. it's a modern invention which sounds good to some that might fear not being saved for some reason.



Now to something a little more on the personal level – if I may be so bold!

I believe that in many ways we share similar beliefs and similar issues about Christianity and Christians.
It seems that lukewarm believers really offend you – that goes for me too!
I have been really offended in my Christian walk by the deadness in much of Christianity – I have found this to be so in every flavour of Christianity, Reformed vs Pelagian, Pentecostal/Charismatic vs Cessationist, loud vs quiet. It doesn’t really matter where I looked the flame seemed to burn really, really low!

I have left several churches due to this issue – I was not prepared to waste my time and money on organisations that had no commitment to their foundational commitment (by this I mean the Great Commission).

I too believe in the vital place that works has in our walk with Christ – just not for salvation. When Paul talks of our adoption as children of God in Romans chapter 8, it means we become part of the “family business”. As such we have a job to do. Of course, God is sovereign and can achieve anything He wants to without our help but, instead, God decided that believers were to be partners in the enterprise. This is where Ephesians 2:10 comes into play:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10

These good works are consequent to the fact that we are saved, not a requirement for salvation. We are family, and part of a family enterprise not employees on a performance-based contract!

I believe that your crusade against what you term “easy-believism” is throwing the baby out with the bathwater!
It is just a substitute term for works-based salvation.
Obviously, in that situation there cannot be assurance of salvation because that is based on grace but a works-based “salvation” has to be according to individual merit.

But that is simply not what is taught – Paul devotes the whole of his epistle to the Romans to explain a Gospel of grace through faith, a free gift that was actually the most expensive gift in history – the shed blood of Jesus Christ!
Yet, to us it is free!
There is no other way to say it – it is a free gift – and that free gift manifests to us as the seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13), “the Spirit of adoption by which we cry out, Abba Father” Rom 8:15.

We are sealed and we are adopted as children of God, and as such we have “the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:14


I agree! Works do not save us. I've said this repeatedly.
However, I'd like it to be stated BOLDLY that we MUST work to remain in the family business. Just saying we have faith is not sufficient. James , a Brother of Christ, said that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
Do we want to say this clearly or not?
We could discuss what works are, but we CANNOT say they are not necessary.
If one knows about Sanctification, one must surely admit that works are REQUIRED.

It seems to me that some are afraid to say this. I don't understand why.

BTW, Easy Believism is not my term. It's a legitimate term, used in books, preaching, etc. It's for those who want to make believing EASY. For those who say that ONLY FAITH is sufficient. This is not true. NO WHERE in the N.T. is this concept even alluded to.

Some will use John 6:29 as a proof verse for what is needed to work the works of God Jesus answers the person that they believe in HIm (Jesus) whom He (FAther) has sent. At this point it's important to know what the word BELIEVE means.
It means to DO as Jesus taught. It is an action word.

If we BELIEVE in Jesus, are to do what He taught and commanded.
John 14.15[/QUOTE]

graceNpeace

I wanted to give your post some time and it's pretty long.
It would have been nice to have some real and serious conversation on this thread, but it is not set up to do so.
I do apprecite the time it took you to post the above.

My replies will b in red.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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greenNpeace

Not enough time to fix the colors.
A few black sentences that should have been red for my answer.

Sorry -- it's how this forum is set up.

Anyway, thanks for the nice conversation.
This is what I look for...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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That would be you my friend, That would be you.

You think you can live in your sin (the sin you deny you have) while you do your religious works.

You keep saying all these things against us, Yet NON of what you say pertains to us, We do not preach or practice what you claim.
I often hear works-salvationists (in a desperate attempt to get around the truth) claim that Paul limits works merely to "religious works/specific works of the law etc.." but does not include works in general when he said "not of works" (Ephesians 2:9); "not by works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5); "not according to our works" (2 Timothy 1:9). Then they try to twist the scriptures to teach that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. :rolleyes:
 
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the own merit starw-man to justify a forgone conclusion of iniquity. Lets tear down this stronghold and expose it for what it really is...

To clear up this own merit fable and the grasping for straws. Knowing this first; no one can forgive past sins except God, its all the mercy of God, so don't worry about earning your own salvation. Its impossible…. Secondly; everyone is doing works of their own merit 24/7, either the woks of iniquity, or the works of godliness..So lets put to rest this own merit straw-man, it becomes very tiresome to those with discernment. It sounds good to an undiscerning ear, but its all fluff to one who rightly divides the word of truth..our works are infact based on our own merit, rather they be evil or good...
Agreed.

Ive said many times that if we're going to attribute EVERYTHING to God, then we must also blame Him when we sin.

The Holy Spirit empowers us,
it does not turn us into a robot.

John 5:28-29 New International Version (NIV)

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

If Jesus is goingto judge as in the above verse, it means He holds US responsible for our works, NOT the Holy Spirit.
 
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Aug 15, 2009
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Yes it is amazing. The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not get arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God, but this does not speak of losing salvation.
Isn't it amazing they can say something & expect it to be taken as a fact?

How many times they do this without any facts or scripture at all?

Maybe they think the "likes" they get establishes them as factual..... They always seem to be there when nothing factual is said.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I have put you on ignore, because you're the one that makes statements without fact, & many times they're just lines of nothing to confuse others.

You didn't even post to me, & I got tired of looking at it.:rolleyes:

Don;t worry Grace, He put me on ignore many moons ago, yet still responds to me,, He is not trustworthy in this area either

And if he did ignore you, Consider it a blessing.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I often hear works-salvationists (in a desperate attempt to get around the truth) claim that Paul limits works merely to "religious works/specific works of the law etc.." but does not include works in general when he said "not of works" (Ephesians 2:9); "not by works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5); "not according to our works" (2 Timothy 1:9). Then they try to twist the scriptures to teach that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. :rolleyes:
I hear that all the time

Only one problem, In non of those passages was the law in context, or even spoken about. Nor was it said specifically what works they were talking about (if they were talking about a specific group)

so they have to add to the word, or twist it, to even get it to appear paul was saying what they claim.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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Wow!

That is right up there with the most appalling abuse of Scripture I have seen on this forum!
Maybe to you.....

Did you notice you said that about a post with 85% scripture in it?

Since the scriptures can't be changed, it's 85% correct.

Makes one think it's the scriptures you have a problem with.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Agreed.

Ive said many times that if we're going to attribute EVERYTHING to God, then we must also blame Him when we sin.

The Holy Spirit empowers us,
it does not turn us into a robot.

John 5:28-29 New International Version (NIV)

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

If Jesus is goingto judge as in the above verse, it means He holds US responsible for our works, NOT the Holy Spirit.
God is a trustworthy God, Thats why we obey him, (we love because he first loved us)

We do not obey him because we some how came up with the power to obey, We obey him (love) because he loved us.

Maybe we need to do a thread on what sin is.. Maybe it would help.

You can not merit salvation, At best, you may be able to merit a plush life here on earth, by doing what needs to be done to earn that life.

But heaven, We merit separation from God, Thats all we will ever merit, which is why we need grace, because apart from Grace we are doomed.

I do hope you read my post about faith and God I responded to you with. It may clear up a misgiving you have about me. and others like me
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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Maybe to you.....

Did you notice you said that about a post with 85% scripture in it?

Since the scriptures can't be changed, it's 85% correct.

Makes one think it's the scriptures you have a problem with.
The issue is not the amount of Scripture used - look at my posts where I go into detail, I want Scripture to do most of the talking!
The problem is that it is abused and its meaning distorted!
Perhaps you don't see that, but it was pretty obvious to me.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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John 5:28-29 New International Version (NIV)

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

If Jesus is goingto judge as in the above verse, it means He holds US responsible for our works, NOT the Holy Spirit.
Another example of how you continue to confuse descriptive passages of Scripture with prescriptive passages of Scripture.

It's the same with Romans 2:6-10. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but is a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose the condition of our heart and whether or not we were saved.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Yes it is amazing. The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not get arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God, but this does not speak of losing salvation.
cognitive disonance - Have you ever heard of a branch that is broken off being alive?
You are either in Gods kingdom, and His people or you are not.
If you are not, you are not spiritually alive.

Now if this idea is too shocking to contemplate, it is the idea individuals know God,
salvation, but are somehow separated from the Lord, and ok.

Now the confusion here is when kids have a trantrum. Emotions run high, and things
go out of hand. The counter issue is when the rebellion is deep seated, and going ones
own way is the only message with a compromise on what you might believe or accept, but
only within certain limits. The idea of being a living sacrifice, Holy and pleasing to God is so
far from where people are, they literally do not understand what is being talked about.

And to ask how they are emotionally or in their walk with the Lord is too personal, how dare
anyone even ask, let alone be told what the reality is. There is no obligation to be open with
anyone, it is just God and them, and that is where it will stay.

So after having this experience with "believers" being grafted in is not where they are, allowing
God to have part of their life, is probably more accurate.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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An example of "good works" are when we encourage people to actually believe what Jesus has said and what He has already done. It is a good work to encourage Christians to believe that He alone has obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12

It is a "good work" to encourage people to trust that He who ha begun a good work in you will perfect it. (Phil. 1:6)

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians to believe that we are new creations in Christ ( 2 Cor. 5:17 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians that Christ alone is our righteousness and our sanctification and our redemption. ( 1 Cor. 1:30 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians to believe that we are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection and no amount of good works can save us nor "keep us saved". Christ alone is the Savior of the world - especially of believers. ( Eph. 2:8-19 & 1 Tim. 4:10 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians that we will walk in the good works that God has already prepare for us to walk in as His life becomes manifested in and through us to reveal the love and grace of our loving Father and our Lord has for others. ( Eph. 2:10 & Phil. 2:13 )

It is a "good work" for us to encourage Christians that we are safe in the hands of the Lord and we who truly believe have been sealed by the Holy Spirit and He will be in us forever - just like Jesus said. ( Eph. 1:13, 4:20 & John 14:16 )

It is also a "good work" to remind Christians that there is a warning for not relying on the life of Christ in us for life and living while on this earth.

All the works of the flesh will bring destruction in this life of some sort - whether living the homosexual lifestyle or the exhibiting of malice, outbursts of anger, deceitfulness or the slandering of others in the body of Christ.

Fail to rely on the grace of God that is only in Christ's finished work and trying to do things in our own flesh will not get us to experience the life of Christ that is in our inner man of the heart where Christ dwells and where we are in the kingdom of God.

The warning scriptures are needed and to be heeded - once the proper foundation of Christ and His finished work are firmly established in the hearts and minds of us Christians. From there - then the warning scriptures will have their proper place.

But the firm foundation is Christ Himself and you can no more lose the redemption that is in Christ then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

We are beloved children of our loving Father and He will not throw His beloved children into hell and the lake of fire because they don't do enough "good works".

Where there is "security" - there are the nutrients for "maturity". Let's believe what Christ has said and what He has already done for us and grow in the grace and knowledge of Him.
 
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PHart

Guest

So God made a HUGE mistake in declaring Abraham righteous, when he declaired outright that abraham had faith.

Thank you for showing me you have little faith in who God is,,

It seems to me God tested Abraham many times,

He said you will have a child through your wife, Abraham failed the test, He committed adultery, and the the middle east has been at war ever since as a result.

Abraham failed the test of believing God twice, when he made his wife say she was his sister. Where was abrahams faith then that God would keep his promise and he would have a son through Sarah? That God would not allow anything to happen to Sarah, because he still had to keep his promise?

Yet Abraham proved his faith many times, As proven by the book of Hebrews.


Heb 11:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. [SUP]9 [/SUP]By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

These were not enough to prove his faith? According to God they were, Faith works, It does not sit still, But faith is not perfect, Proven by the fact Abraham failed at faith many times.



Yet you want to say if Abraham did not do something decades later he would not have been saved?

Again, If anything, The offering up of Issac proves how much Abraham's faith grew, Not that he had faith. He proved his faith LONG before he went to offer his son, And if he had failed? He would have been just as saved as when he commited adultry, or tried to deceive people about his wife to protect her.

Again, James said faith WITHOUT WORKS,, Abraham had MANY WORKS before he went to offer his son, He already PROVED HIS FAITH

James is not written to people who have true faith, It is written to people who have dead faith.
If Abraham had not sacrificed Isaac on the altar when God asked him to BECAUSE HE HAD LOST FAITH IN THE PROMISES he would have been lost.


(I have accidentally hit the send button so I don't have enough time to add the rest of my critique of your post to this post.)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Another example of how you continue to confuse descriptive passages of Scripture with prescriptive passages of Scripture.

It's the same with Romans 2:6-10. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but is a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose the condition of our heart and whether or not we were saved.
what is so hard for people to understand

Gods people obey him, They do righteous deeds, They have workd

Gods enemies do not obey him, they do unrighteous deeds (even if they appear to be righteous deeds) and they have zero zip nada works.

As john said, Whoever lives in sin has never seen or known God

Whoever is born of God can not live in sin, because they have been born of God.

Again, the bible gives us descriptions of two groups of people. those in christ, and those who are not in christ.


 
Apr 30, 2016
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God is a trustworthy God, Thats why we obey him, (we love because he first loved us)

We do not obey him because we some how came up with the power to obey, We obey him (love) because he loved us.

Maybe we need to do a thread on what sin is.. Maybe it would help.

You can not merit salvation, At best, you may be able to merit a plush life here on earth, by doing what needs to be done to earn that life.

But heaven, We merit separation from God, Thats all we will ever merit, which is why we need grace, because apart from Grace we are doomed.

I do hope you read my post about faith and God I responded to you with. It may clear up a misgiving you have about me. and others like me
I'm not sure I did EG.
This thread moves along too quickly.

Also, there should be a way for us to be advised when someone posts SPECIFICALLY to a person.
It would really help.

I'd be happy to read it if you know where it is.
Otherwise, no matter, I have love for my brothers in Christ.
Sometimes I go a little off the edge because too much is going on at once.
 
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PHart

Guest
what is so hard for people to understand

Gods people obey him, They do righteous deeds, They have workd

Gods enemies do not obey him, they do unrighteous deeds (even if they appear to be righteous deeds) and they have zero zip nada works.

As john said, Whoever lives in sin has never seen or known God

Whoever is born of God can not live in sin, because they have been born of God.

Again, the bible gives us descriptions of two groups of people. those in christ, and those who are not in christ.


I wish this were true, but simple observation shows it to be completely false.
Spirit filled people really do deny Christ and fall from their faith in God and return to the world.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
If Abraham had not sacrificed Isaac on the altar when God asked him to BECAUSE HE HAD LOST FAITH IN THE PROMISES
Did you even read what I posted?

1. Abraham committed adultery BECAUSE HE DID NOT HAVE FAITH IN THE PROMISED
2. Abraham failed to trust God with his wife's life BECAUSE HE DID NOT HAVE FAITH IN THE PROMISES

According to your view, Abraham was never saved. Since he seems to have never had faith in Gods promise concerning his son

Yet Abraham did have faith in other areas. As proven by hebrews 11.

You can not have it both ways bud.

And again,

God said he had faith in Gen 15, If Abraham did nto have faith, God is a liar,