PART TWO
Paul calls it not just a gift but in redundant fashions calls it a “free gift” to absolutely emphasise that man cannot work for this. Cannot earn it.
Grace cannot be called grace unless it is grace. A gift cannot be a gift unless it is a gift – a free gift!
For grace to be grace, then grace accepted cannot be recalled, and likewise, for a gift to be a gift, then a gift accepted cannot be recalled.
Agreed. Grace is an attribute of God. Faith is of us but is a gift from God. No argument here.
Except that we must HOLD ON to the gift.
Colossians 1:21-23 New International Version (NIV)
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Of course, grace can be rejected and a gift spurned, but once accepted, the one who offered cannot then demand its return.
Grace is unmerited favour – grace accepted could never have been earned in the first place because it was unmerited. A gift is offered without contractual obligation otherwise it is not a gift, it then becomes a conditional offering.
Ephesians 2:8-9 summarises and emphasises that salvation is by grace through faith:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8-9
(Eph 2:10 belongs to this passage too, but I will come back to it later – promise!)
If our salvation is by grace through faith, as stated, and is the gift of God, and therefore not of ourselves, and not of works then man hcan have only two responses to this offer: accept it or reject it!
This is a binary choice there is no middle road of choice.
Also, if one accepts the gift, offered by grace through faith, the gift cannot be lost by works or lack thereof (otherwise it cannot be a gift, never mind a gift offered by grace)!
Only two responses. I Always make a point of this. NO MIDDLE GROUND.
What I disagree with is that the New Testament is FULL of verses stating that we MUST HOLD ON to our fath till the end.
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Peter 2:20-22 (incredible how some try to get around this one)
Lets go back to the end of Romans chapter 8:
[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38-39.
These verses are not quoted out of context, this is a summary of an entire passage of Scripture devoted to one topic – assurance of salvation.
Paul's quotes every extreme that he can think of as pertaining to the topic and concludes that none of these things “shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.“
Paul doesn't state here that the person could just walk away since he makes it so clear in so many other verses, some of which I've posted.
Eternal Security, Assurance of Salvation, OSAS, is NOT biblical. it's a modern invention which sounds good to some that might fear not being saved for some reason.
Now to something a little more on the personal level – if I may be so bold!
I believe that in many ways we share similar beliefs and similar issues about Christianity and Christians.
It seems that lukewarm believers really offend you – that goes for me too!
I have been really offended in my Christian walk by the deadness in much of Christianity – I have found this to be so in every flavour of Christianity, Reformed vs Pelagian, Pentecostal/Charismatic vs Cessationist, loud vs quiet. It doesn’t really matter where I looked the flame seemed to burn really, really low!
I have left several churches due to this issue – I was not prepared to waste my time and money on organisations that had no commitment to their foundational commitment (by this I mean the Great Commission).
I too believe in the vital place that works has in our walk with Christ – just not for salvation. When Paul talks of our adoption as children of God in Romans chapter 8, it means we become part of the “family business”. As such we have a job to do. Of course, God is sovereign and can achieve anything He wants to without our help but, instead, God decided that believers were to be partners in the enterprise. This is where Ephesians 2:10 comes into play:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10
These good works are consequent to the fact that we are saved, not a requirement for salvation. We are family, and part of a family enterprise not employees on a performance-based contract!
I believe that your crusade against what you term “easy-believism” is throwing the baby out with the bathwater!
It is just a substitute term for works-based salvation.
Obviously, in that situation there cannot be assurance of salvation because that is based on grace but a works-based “salvation” has to be according to individual merit.
But that is simply not what is taught – Paul devotes the whole of his epistle to the Romans to explain a Gospel of grace through faith, a free gift that was actually the most expensive gift in history – the shed blood of Jesus Christ!
Yet, to us it is free!
There is no other way to say it – it is a free gift – and that free gift manifests to us as the seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13), “the Spirit of adoption by which we cry out, Abba Father” Rom 8:15.
We are sealed and we are adopted as children of God, and as such we have “the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.“ Eph 1:14
I agree! Works do not save us. I've said this repeatedly.
However, I'd like it to be stated BOLDLY that we MUST work to remain in the family business. Just saying we have faith is not sufficient. James , a Brother of Christ, said that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
Do we want to say this clearly or not?
We could discuss what works are, but we CANNOT say they are not necessary.
If one knows about Sanctification, one must surely admit that works are REQUIRED.
It seems to me that some are afraid to say this. I don't understand why.
BTW, Easy Believism is not my term. It's a legitimate term, used in books, preaching, etc. It's for those who want to make believing EASY. For those who say that ONLY FAITH is sufficient. This is not true. NO WHERE in the N.T. is this concept even alluded to.
Some will use John 6:29 as a proof verse for what is needed to work the works of God Jesus answers the person that they believe in HIm (Jesus) whom He (FAther) has sent. At this point it's important to know what the word BELIEVE means.
It means to DO as Jesus taught. It is an action word.
If we BELIEVE in Jesus, are to do what He taught and commanded.
John 14.15[/QUOTE]
graceNpeace
I wanted to give your post some time and it's pretty long.
It would have been nice to have some real and serious conversation on this thread, but it is not set up to do so.
I do apprecite the time it took you to post the above.
My replies will b in red.
Paul calls it not just a gift but in redundant fashions calls it a “free gift” to absolutely emphasise that man cannot work for this. Cannot earn it.
Grace cannot be called grace unless it is grace. A gift cannot be a gift unless it is a gift – a free gift!
For grace to be grace, then grace accepted cannot be recalled, and likewise, for a gift to be a gift, then a gift accepted cannot be recalled.
Agreed. Grace is an attribute of God. Faith is of us but is a gift from God. No argument here.
Except that we must HOLD ON to the gift.
Colossians 1:21-23 New International Version (NIV)
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Of course, grace can be rejected and a gift spurned, but once accepted, the one who offered cannot then demand its return.
Grace is unmerited favour – grace accepted could never have been earned in the first place because it was unmerited. A gift is offered without contractual obligation otherwise it is not a gift, it then becomes a conditional offering.
Ephesians 2:8-9 summarises and emphasises that salvation is by grace through faith:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8-9
(Eph 2:10 belongs to this passage too, but I will come back to it later – promise!)
If our salvation is by grace through faith, as stated, and is the gift of God, and therefore not of ourselves, and not of works then man hcan have only two responses to this offer: accept it or reject it!
This is a binary choice there is no middle road of choice.
Also, if one accepts the gift, offered by grace through faith, the gift cannot be lost by works or lack thereof (otherwise it cannot be a gift, never mind a gift offered by grace)!
Only two responses. I Always make a point of this. NO MIDDLE GROUND.
What I disagree with is that the New Testament is FULL of verses stating that we MUST HOLD ON to our fath till the end.
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Peter 2:20-22 (incredible how some try to get around this one)
Lets go back to the end of Romans chapter 8:
[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38-39.
These verses are not quoted out of context, this is a summary of an entire passage of Scripture devoted to one topic – assurance of salvation.
Paul's quotes every extreme that he can think of as pertaining to the topic and concludes that none of these things “shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.“
Paul doesn't state here that the person could just walk away since he makes it so clear in so many other verses, some of which I've posted.
Eternal Security, Assurance of Salvation, OSAS, is NOT biblical. it's a modern invention which sounds good to some that might fear not being saved for some reason.
Now to something a little more on the personal level – if I may be so bold!
I believe that in many ways we share similar beliefs and similar issues about Christianity and Christians.
It seems that lukewarm believers really offend you – that goes for me too!
I have been really offended in my Christian walk by the deadness in much of Christianity – I have found this to be so in every flavour of Christianity, Reformed vs Pelagian, Pentecostal/Charismatic vs Cessationist, loud vs quiet. It doesn’t really matter where I looked the flame seemed to burn really, really low!
I have left several churches due to this issue – I was not prepared to waste my time and money on organisations that had no commitment to their foundational commitment (by this I mean the Great Commission).
I too believe in the vital place that works has in our walk with Christ – just not for salvation. When Paul talks of our adoption as children of God in Romans chapter 8, it means we become part of the “family business”. As such we have a job to do. Of course, God is sovereign and can achieve anything He wants to without our help but, instead, God decided that believers were to be partners in the enterprise. This is where Ephesians 2:10 comes into play:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10
These good works are consequent to the fact that we are saved, not a requirement for salvation. We are family, and part of a family enterprise not employees on a performance-based contract!
I believe that your crusade against what you term “easy-believism” is throwing the baby out with the bathwater!
It is just a substitute term for works-based salvation.
Obviously, in that situation there cannot be assurance of salvation because that is based on grace but a works-based “salvation” has to be according to individual merit.
But that is simply not what is taught – Paul devotes the whole of his epistle to the Romans to explain a Gospel of grace through faith, a free gift that was actually the most expensive gift in history – the shed blood of Jesus Christ!
Yet, to us it is free!
There is no other way to say it – it is a free gift – and that free gift manifests to us as the seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13), “the Spirit of adoption by which we cry out, Abba Father” Rom 8:15.
We are sealed and we are adopted as children of God, and as such we have “the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.“ Eph 1:14
I agree! Works do not save us. I've said this repeatedly.
However, I'd like it to be stated BOLDLY that we MUST work to remain in the family business. Just saying we have faith is not sufficient. James , a Brother of Christ, said that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
Do we want to say this clearly or not?
We could discuss what works are, but we CANNOT say they are not necessary.
If one knows about Sanctification, one must surely admit that works are REQUIRED.
It seems to me that some are afraid to say this. I don't understand why.
BTW, Easy Believism is not my term. It's a legitimate term, used in books, preaching, etc. It's for those who want to make believing EASY. For those who say that ONLY FAITH is sufficient. This is not true. NO WHERE in the N.T. is this concept even alluded to.
Some will use John 6:29 as a proof verse for what is needed to work the works of God Jesus answers the person that they believe in HIm (Jesus) whom He (FAther) has sent. At this point it's important to know what the word BELIEVE means.
It means to DO as Jesus taught. It is an action word.
If we BELIEVE in Jesus, are to do what He taught and commanded.
John 14.15[/QUOTE]
graceNpeace
I wanted to give your post some time and it's pretty long.
It would have been nice to have some real and serious conversation on this thread, but it is not set up to do so.
I do apprecite the time it took you to post the above.
My replies will b in red.
