Assurance of salvation
Fran, I considered several ways to explaining assurance of salvation. I was going to take the explanation through the whole spiritual apparatus of salvation and justification by faith to assurance. However, I looked at the multitude of posts by yourself in this thread and others and I decided that you knew and understood all the concepts as far as mental assent goes.
I am convinced that you are an alert and intelligent individual with a good command of the English language, and dare I say it, a gift for the gab. I believe you when you say that you have debated this issue several times (not only on this forum). Perhaps you are a bit like those annoying, but nonetheless attractive girls and young women I knew at school, who could always win an argument. Being right or wrong was never the issue – winning the debate was!
I sure hope I speak English well. I'm a New Yorker but Mr. Dcon made a statement that I'm not well-versed in English. Maybe because I live in Italy he thought I grew up here. Whateva...
THIS IS one argument I persue. Not because I believe I'll convince YOU, but I know there are quiet persons reading along and it's for them that I post. Someone else on this thread said that this is to boost my ego. I'm getting strange reactions here, which is why I come and go. I do thank you for your nice words.
So, instead I will start here:
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[SUP][a][/SUP] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:1-2
and end here:
[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38-39.
I agree. You'll get only this argument from me:
NOTHING can separate us from God. True. Not even satan. Certainly no man.
I have, however, seen persons walk away from their faith. Some come back, and some don't.
I hear that they were never really saved in the first place.
This is a Calvinist idea and did not exist before Luther and Calvin. (I hate to discuss Augustine. He never seemed quite sure what he believed and was the only one of his generation that believed in ANY type of predestination).
We cannot know if someone is saved or not. If they profess faith, go to a Church, try to llive a Christianly life, it is not UP TO ME to say they are NOT saved. You know what they say: If it walks like a duck...
If you had cut this down a bit, I would have gotten into the idea of why Calvinists are actually MORE INSECURE of their salvation than Arminians. But there's too much here...
In fact the entire chapter is Paul’s magnum opus on the assurance of salvation.
When you read verse 1, given your track record through this thread up to now you will immediately be thinking that there is an escape clause in that verse: “who do not walk according to the flesh“.
Not so.
Verse 9 explains who is who and what is what:
[SUP]9[/SUP] But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Rom 8:9
What is the difference between those who are in the flesh and those in the Spirit?
Simple: “Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” – not a Christian.
Simple: “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you“ – a Christian.
My take on your approach is that somehow one can flip-flop from one state to another, from having the Holy Spirit to not having the Holy Spirit!
Is this Biblically tenable?
I would submit not.
Lets go on:
Again, I agree. I flip-flop? How????? I'm not aware of flip-flopping. I've been a Christian for about 40 years.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” [SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. Rom 8:14-17
For this passage of Scripture to make any sense whatsoever it is not possible to oscillate between two states, Christian – non-Christian, born again – not born again, adopted son – not adopted.
We still agree. Wow. This is easy. I could have done this Yesterday !!
Lets take this a bit further:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:13-14
Still good. But I see troube up ahead.
You're going to get into the sealing. Up above it says that when we believed, we were sealed with the Holy Spirit. He is the guarantee of our inheritance, UNTIL THE REDEMPTION of the PURCHASED POSSESSION.
This is also said to be an "earnest".
Ephesians 1:14
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
KJV
An "earnest" is a DOWN PAYMENT, as we can see from this version:
Ephesians 1:1 4New International Version (NIV)
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Young's Literal Translation uses the word "earnest".
Our sealing is a down payment. It is valid for as LONG AS WE REMAIN IN CHRIST.
Of course, if you believe in OSAS that discussion ends here
If you want to take the ENTIRE bible at it's plain and simple work, then you do have to give some attention to this idea that we have a DOWN PAYMENT FOR A PURCHASE. Like when you buy a house with a deposit and it is NOT YOURS until all payments are made. And when is this? At the end of our lives AT THE REDEMPTION. ù
Ephesiand 1:14
2 Timothy 4:8 and more
"in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing."
The phrase “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise“ is not incidental. Everyone in those days knew what a seal was. Individuals like kings and rulers had seals. Seals were applied to documents and property. Messing with those seals meant the full wrath of those individuals and their authority of state because one was challenging and usurping their authority. Seals were often placed on goods purchased and then left without guard because the very seal was the guard or the security. No one would steal and goods marked with a seal unless they were willing to die for the privilege. The seals were inviolate.
All true. I would add that many times the King would send out another decree, also sealed, invalidating the first one.
So I wouldn't say that the seal in and of itself is a TRUE guarantee of anything, even back in those days.
Anyway, this seal certainly shows good intention of the part of God. But does it guarantee the faithfulness of the person?
God will not back out of anything he promises, but could we back out? You see THIS is the Whole question here. YOU believe one cannot. I believe one can. If we keep OUR part of the deal, we weill certainly be saved because God is true. Is HE required to be true even if we do not keep OUR part of this deal?
If WE back out, God WILL withdraw His earnest, or down payment, and we will lose our salvation.
There are only 3 verses in the bible that refer to a "guarantee". There are many verses, and the entire New Testament, confirms that salvation can be lost. Many verses that confirm this...
John 15:1-6 IF WE DO NOT ABIDE IN CHRIST, WE WILL BE THROWN AWAY AS A BRANCH AND CAST INTO THE FIRE.
Acts 8:18-23
Romans 6:12-16
1 Timothy 1:18-19
Hebrews 3:6
an many more...
The seal, which is the Holy Spirit is described like this: “
who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.” The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance. It is the same Holy Spirit that is our Spirit of adoption.
Furthermore we received this great inheritance, this adoption, by grace.
What does this mean exactly?
It means by grace, and therefore it cannot be of works in any way, shape, or form:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[SUP][c][/SUP] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Rom 11:5-6
I'll go thru quickly.
This is talking about Israel, specifically. God has not rejected Israel. But some of them had become hard-hearted. It refers also to when Jesus explained why He spoke in parables. Having eyes they will not see, having ears, they will not hear. One must make an effort to undrstand God, this will not happen if the heart is hardened.
Romans 11:5-6 is referring to these hard-hearted Jews who walked out and may come back. It IS GOD'S GRACE working in them It is not of their own works. This could be appllied to us also. If we're baptized for the right reason, it is of God's grace, if we think we're doing it to be saved, it becomes a work and nullifies God's grace. If we try to work for our salvation, we will not be saved, by God's grace and our faith, we are saved. Justification. Sanctfication is different and requires our works.
The reference to the remnant and the present time referred to those who were Christians. Paul absolutely emphasises that salvation (the phrase used here is “according to the election of grace”) is by grace, unmerited favour, a gift.
If calling salvation a gift seems like over-egging the goose then look at the terminology Paul uses in Romans chapter 5:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Rom 5:15-17
PART ONE