Not By Works

[BillG]

Probably hand them an Apple cuz it's healthier?


All joking aside.,,Jesus said that some people only followed him because he gave them bread and fish to eat..,, not because they believed (aka trusted totally) in Him and His gospel.

John 6:26-29


Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[Ariel82]

Are we no longer required to stop stealing? Committing adultery? Honor our father & mother?

Yeah, I know a lot of people says those two covers the rest..... but not if they were never taught those others.

If you steal you aren't loving your neighbor nor trusting that God can provide for you.

If you commit adultery you sin against your spouse, the other person,yourself and God. If you truly love your spouse as you should, you should not allow your mind to go down that path.

You should honor even your enemies because God calls you not only to love those who love you but love also those who hate you.


Agape love is add to brotherly kindness which is built upon godliness after much perservance while learning self control as taught wisdom by the Holy spirit...which is all done when we are given virtue after having a saving faith in the Gospel.

 

[Ariel82]

I tear into you?
How?

I come across as being that mean???

Sorry if I do. It's not intentional.

It's just part of your personality. You are very forceful with your beliefs, which is good because folks know where you stand.

However, you can steamroll over people sometimes.

I am getting used to stand up and say "wait a sec!"

Believe it or not I do have a lot of respect for you, even if we tend to disagree on a few doctrines.


(reading backwards can be confusing)

 

[FranC]

I agree that is legalism and EG violently opposes legalism. Just as you violently defend Free will and the responsibility of individuals to choose between good and evil.

I am just showing you why I try and be very clear with my words.

Again folks may think me foolish but I see God moving with in both of you and others to defend against lies and false doctrines that are trying to sneak into the church.

You each have a different passion.

If we could all learn to work as a Body joined by Christ and His truth.....it scares the forces of evil. Why do you think they (forces of darkness unseen by fleshly eyes) twist what is said and understood to cause us to believe lies of what the other person says?

Because if we rejected their lies and stood together, they would have no place to hide...no shadows to whisper from.

It's good to be passionate.
But I still do my best to listen to the other person.
If I disagree I state why. I do not make it personal.
Some here make everything too personal and it is to no one's edification.

I believe in free will.
We choose God or not.
We must believe in Him till the end since it's belief that saves us, through faith by God's grace.
If we choose God, then we must follow in His ways.
I do not like legalism. Legalism does not save.
Only our faith and love for God can save us.
This does NOT mean we sit back and do nothing.
...which no one here is saying, but I'm starting to sound like a broken record...

 

[Stephen63]

Faith means believing, trusting, relying and obedience which follows and is produced out of faith is works. Accomplishing multiple acts of obedience throughout our lifetime is a manifestation of our faith, but not the origin of it.

If someone died the same day that they genuinely placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (like the thief on the cross) and was unable to accomplish multiple acts of obedience afterwards (the thief was not even able to get water baptized prior to his death on the same day of his conversion) yet he still had faith.

You couldn't say that the thief did not accomplish multiple acts of obedience before he died and faith is in essence, multiple acts of obedience, so the thief did not have faith.

Let me be emphatically clear..... works is not the "origin" of our faith, it's the EVIDENCE of faith, the fruit of faith.

No godly good works, no evidence or fruit of faith.

Since the just LIVES by faith, then we must have fruit from the beginning till the end of out lives.

This is what the parable of the fig tree is about. This tree was grown & had produced fruit during those former years.

Then the tree hadn't produced fruit for 3 years..... the owner said "cut it down".

The husbandman asked for one more year so he could work on it, & after that, if that didn't work he would cut it down.

A christian can't quit LIVING BY FAITH & expect to slide into Heaven..... won't happen.

 

[Ariel82]

When I say "add to our faith"

I refer to this Bible passage

2 peter 1
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

 

[FranC]

YES, YES, YES, Truth and AMEN!!! It is ALL about Him! Notice how many times it says Him, Him, Him, Messiah!!!!

Yes.
But what does it mean??

I have little time now.
it goes Beyond what it says.

Give it a go...

 

[Stephen63]

Biblical definition of faith - Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith "is" the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Notice the writer of Hebrews did not say that faith "is" multiple acts of obedience or faith "is" works. The writer of Hebrews goes on to list multiple acts of obedience that were accomplished "by" or "out of" faith, yet these acts of obedience/works are the fruit of faith and not the essence of faith.

Faith involves belief, trust, reliance which results in obedience/good works, yet even though all genuine believers are fruitful, not all are equally fruitful.

But they are fruitful, whether a little or a lot.

 

[FranC]

Meggido....I still don't understand this part and believe it may be key in his whole theology...



I think he has two levels of "sin"...truthfully don't have the time to figure out his theology at this point in my life, but I don't think he teaches sinless perfection.

He doesn't believe in imputed righteousness of Christ and defines the word "Faith" as obedience, which tells me it will take hours of conversation to figure out where he got those ideas from.

You're writing to Meggido, I just want to say that I haven't seen anyone here speak of sinless perfection.

In fact I never heard of such a concept --- it's not biblical.

 

[Limey410v2]

Regading Beta's reply:

Here's why she's wrong...

There were three types of Law in the O.T.

Civil
Ceremonial
Moral

Jesus did abolish the Civil and Ceremonial.
HE DID NOT abolish the Moral Law.
God is a moral being and so that cannot be abolished.

Keeping the Sabbath was a ceremonial Law.
THAT HAS been abolished...

He did not abolish any of the Law, he fulfilled all of the law.

 

[Stephen63]

Context alludes you, scripture alludes you yea the very truth alludes you......anyone with eyes can see through your CAINOLOGY pal.....and it is obvious that you love burger king theology....

MAYBE study and be honest and you will find numerous places where JESUS rejoiced in spirit.....

Does anyone really take this guy serious....he cannot put one thing in context and disregards truth NON-STOP to post uncalled for attacks like the one here where BLUE and I were discussing coffee in light of the CAFE BLEND CAINOLOGY dogma pushed by the workers for and were NOT MOCKING SIN....what a deceiver....!

HAHAHAHHA A CAFE CARAMEL or MOCHA LATTE for me thanks HAHAHAH

Now, are you gonna say you didn't do it?

Are you gonna keep on accusing others to cover your sin?

 

[willybob]

Let me be emphatically clear..... works is not the "origin" of our faith, it's the EVIDENCE of faith, the fruit of faith.

No godly good works, no evidence or fruit of faith.

Since the just LIVES by faith, then we must have fruit from the beginning till the end of out lives.

This is what the parable of the fig tree is about. This tree was grown & had produced fruit during those former years.

Then the tree hadn't produced fruit for 3 years..... the owner said "cut it down".

The husbandman asked for one more year so he could work on it, & after that, if that didn't work he would cut it down.

A christian can't quit LIVING BY FAITH & expect to slide into Heaven..... won't happen.

quite true Stephan, Jesus said learn the parable of the fig tree

It describes the religious system of that day. From afar off it appeared that it might have fruit, but as He came closer He discovered only fig leaves, having a covering for iniquity (a form of godliness) like Adam and Eve covered themselves with fih leaves, but the tree gave no fruit..the outside of the cup they try and keep clean, but the inner heart is full of abominations and produces no fruit..The religious system of Christianity has the same covering today....It sometimes looks good on the outside, but the inner temple is full of abominations, perceiving godliness and worldliness to be great gain....Out of a million people in His day, Jesus only had a scant few remain and follow him. He didn't reveal himself to non-believers after He rose from the dead...And only 500 saw him after He rose...be blessed

 

[UnderGrace]

And which belief is it that saves?

Because the way you explain it we have no need for work of Jesus on the cross.

It's good to be passionate.
But I still do my best to listen to the other person.
If I disagree I state why. I do not make it personal.
Some here make everything too personal and it is to no one's edification.

I believe in free will.
We choose God or not.
We must believe in Him till the end since it's belief that saves us, through faith by God's grace.
If we choose God, then we must follow in His ways.
I do not like legalism. Legalism does not save.
Only our faith and love for God can save us.
This does NOT mean we sit back and do nothing.
...which no one here is saying, but I'm starting to sound like a broken record...

 

[dcontroversal]

Now, are you gonna say you didn't do it?

Are you gonna keep on accusing others to cover your sin?

Did you say something that matters......nawww I didn't think so.....you should really try to have some relevance and pay attention when you post....serious!

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Context alludes you, scripture alludes you yea the very truth alludes you......anyone with eyes can see through your CAINOLOGY pal.....and it is obvious that you love burger king theology....

MAYBE study and be honest and you will find numerous places where JESUS rejoiced in spirit.....

Does anyone really take this guy serious....he cannot put one thing in context and disregards truth NON-STOP to post uncalled for attacks like the one here where BLUE and I were discussing coffee in light of the CAFE BLEND CAINOLOGY dogma pushed by the workers for and were NOT MOCKING SIN....what a deceiver....!

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

HAHAHAHHA A CAFE CARAMEL or MOCHA LATTE for me thanks HAHAHAH

 

[UnderGrace]

The key is to understand what that fulfillment means. Sadly people think that now we have Jesus to help us fulfill the law too!

He did not abolish any of the Law, he fulfilled all of the law.

 

[Ariel82]

You're writing to Meggido, I just want to say that I haven't seen anyone here speak of sinless perfection.

In fact I never heard of such a concept --- it's not biblical.

I was responding to post 16806.....just in case you missed why I even mentioned those words.

I try and avoid quoting inflammatory words. It's stirs conflict.

 

[FranC]

There are new Worship Chorus out by Hillsong and Lauren Daigle and others that talk about God moving the mountains or not moving the mountain in our life...

I am making comments about after salvation here...

Grace alone movements loves this song and then they teach that God will move the mountain...

Truth says that Jesus taught WE must speak to the mountain and the mountains will move....[Matt 21]

Grace and truth say that through empowering Grace and blended with my personal faith I speak to the mountain and the mountain must move...

We see this in 1 Sam 17 in the story of David and Goliath....

Everyone was talking ABOUT Goliath, it was David who talked TO Goliath....
Thanks to the cancer in the body the word of faith movement made, we stopped talking about true confession of the word and now grace alone tells people God's got it and the burden is never removed, the yoke is never destroyed and the life is never changed...

we still have thousands who then go home after a milkshake and diet bread sticks, begging God to do something about things and God is like....I never told you I would move YOUR mountain by my grace alone....My truth says that you have to blend my empowering grace with your own personal faith and use your voice and speak to the mountains and giants and the mountain will move and the giants will fall and be beheaded....

Grace alone post salvation continues to declare that saving grace does it all....not true, Titus 2..1-15 says empowering grace is a teacher, and that you now have to pick up sword, pick up your shield, put on your battle boots, your helmet, your breastplate and fight the good fight of faith, endure hardship,....this is not works to maintain salvation, this is the duty of a good solder of Jesus Christ...who was bought and paid for by the shed Blood of Jesus Christ and not working to maintain what the gave, but working to make disciples and destroy the works of the enemy their lives, so they can show other show do it and it is repeated....

The promise of the new covenant is obtained through grace and faith and truth and ratified by the shed blood of Jesus Christ and is not based on anything we do....post salvation then requires you to enter into rest through doing your part, while God has already done his...

I agreed with everything you said. It sounded like you were talking about sanctification.

Why did you change at the end with this:

this is not works to maintain salvation, this is the duty of a good solder of Jesus Christ...who was bought and paid for by the shed Blood of Jesus Christ and not working to maintain what the gave, but working to make disciples and destroy the works of the enemy their lives, so they can show other show do it and it is repeated....

AFTER saying these very true concepts:

Grace alone post salvation continues to declare that saving grace does it all....not true, Titus 2..1-15 says empowering grace is a teacher, and that you now have to pick up sword, pick up your shield, put on your battle boots, your helmet, your breastplate and fight the good fight of faith, endure hardship,...

AND WHAT is our part then, if not the works we do every day? What are works anyway??

post salvation then requires you to enter into rest through doing your part, while God has already done his...

 

[blue_ladybug]

Some people just assume things too often, D. Some just can't take a joke.. I posted the coffee gif as a pun on your "cafe blend" phrase.. There was no mocking of sin at all..

Did you say something that matters......nawww I didn't think so.....you should really try to have some relevance and pay attention when you post....serious!

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Context alludes you, scripture alludes you yea the very truth alludes you......anyone with eyes can see through your CAINOLOGY pal.....and it is obvious that you love burger king theology....

MAYBE study and be honest and you will find numerous places where JESUS rejoiced in spirit.....

Does anyone really take this guy serious....he cannot put one thing in context and disregards truth NON-STOP to post uncalled for attacks like the one here where BLUE and I were discussing coffee in light of the CAFE BLEND CAINOLOGY dogma pushed by the workers for and were NOT MOCKING SIN....what a deceiver....!

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

HAHAHAHHA A CAFE CARAMEL or MOCHA LATTE for me thanks HAHAHAH

 

[Stephen63]

That's alright..... lie about sin, & blame others.

Every idle word, every idle word.....

 

[Ariel82]

They weren't mocking sin....they were mocking what they believe to be false doctrine of works salvation (when people say you have to have works to be saved)....


If you are gonna accuse someone...at least make it accurate.