Do we live in an age of the miraculous?
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This is just bad logic. Herod had heard of Jesus' miracles, but apparently hadn't seen them. He'd probably received plenty of non-miraculous evidence in the form of testimonies and reports. But Jesus did not do a miracle for him. Was that a sure sign of a spurious concept.
Again, basically, you make the issue boil down to your own experience, or in this case, the lack thereof. I'm not saying there is a Biblical style miracle on every streetcorner near where you live. But they do occur from time to time. Supernatural healings do occur from time to time. I have been witness to that.
How can you call eye witness accounts 'folly'? The New Testament contains eye witness accounts of miracles. Do you believe they occurred? Hundreds of pages of accounts of other miracles and other documentation of miracles is valuable evidence if you are serious about researching the topic.
I've read that Randy Clark did a dissertation about healing of back problems, including a case of a metal rod that disappeared, reviewed by medical and/or scientific faculty from top ranked universities. I'd have to look up the details. Documentation is valid.
If you want video documentation, there is a whole 'street healing' type genre on YouTube. You'd have to sift through the videos to find the ones you consider worthy of further research. But if you treat it as axiomatic that miracles and supernatural healings to not occur, you may find some reason to dismiss any evidence presented to you.
There was a healing that I found quite a bit of before and after documentation of on YouTube. It wasn't a totally instant healing, but it was enough to get media attention. Delia Knox was in a car accident and was paralyzed due to brain damage. I found an old 'public interest' type news piece on her, the gospel singer in a wheelchair. Her husband was a pastor of a Charismatic church. In one of her testimonies she said she didn't like being prayed for for healing. She was the woman in the wheelchair who always got prayer for this. But an evangelist came to their church and prayed for her. You can find on YouTube the video of her walking for the first time in 22 years, walking out of her wheelchair. She got a bit of help and she did not walk perfectly at first. But soon, she was standing and walking on her own. There was footage of her on YouTube after her healing, including a local news piece showing a clip of her healing and showing her walk up the steps of her childhood home to greet her parents and a crowd of well-wishers.
That's some pretty empty rhetoric. People who remember their trips to the zoo or Mexico aren't going to be convinced that their experience wasn't real. I am not going to be able to convince the average person that his childhood memories aren't real. That doesn't mean they aren't.
Again, basically, you make the issue boil down to your own experience, or in this case, the lack thereof. I'm not saying there is a Biblical style miracle on every streetcorner near where you live. But they do occur from time to time. Supernatural healings do occur from time to time. I have been witness to that.
How can you call eye witness accounts 'folly'? The New Testament contains eye witness accounts of miracles. Do you believe they occurred? Hundreds of pages of accounts of other miracles and other documentation of miracles is valuable evidence if you are serious about researching the topic.
I've read that Randy Clark did a dissertation about healing of back problems, including a case of a metal rod that disappeared, reviewed by medical and/or scientific faculty from top ranked universities. I'd have to look up the details. Documentation is valid.
If you want video documentation, there is a whole 'street healing' type genre on YouTube. You'd have to sift through the videos to find the ones you consider worthy of further research. But if you treat it as axiomatic that miracles and supernatural healings to not occur, you may find some reason to dismiss any evidence presented to you.
There was a healing that I found quite a bit of before and after documentation of on YouTube. It wasn't a totally instant healing, but it was enough to get media attention. Delia Knox was in a car accident and was paralyzed due to brain damage. I found an old 'public interest' type news piece on her, the gospel singer in a wheelchair. Her husband was a pastor of a Charismatic church. In one of her testimonies she said she didn't like being prayed for for healing. She was the woman in the wheelchair who always got prayer for this. But an evangelist came to their church and prayed for her. You can find on YouTube the video of her walking for the first time in 22 years, walking out of her wheelchair. She got a bit of help and she did not walk perfectly at first. But soon, she was standing and walking on her own. There was footage of her on YouTube after her healing, including a local news piece showing a clip of her healing and showing her walk up the steps of her childhood home to greet her parents and a crowd of well-wishers.
That's some pretty empty rhetoric. People who remember their trips to the zoo or Mexico aren't going to be convinced that their experience wasn't real. I am not going to be able to convince the average person that his childhood memories aren't real. That doesn't mean they aren't.
So, the Devil through the occultists does (lying) signs, wonders and miracles today and God doesn't? (see Matt 24v11,24, Acts 2v16-21,38,39, 2Thess 2v1-12, Rev 11v3-6, Rev 13 (all))
I've never heard such a LIE in all of my life, you obviously need to go and repent, seek the Lord Jesus in a new and living and search the Scriptures! Acts 17v11,12
I've never heard such a LIE in all of my life, you obviously need to go and repent, seek the Lord Jesus in a new and living and search the Scriptures! Acts 17v11,12
If we are blessed because we have not seen Him and yet we believe, how much more are we blessed when we do not seek feelings or signs or the miraculous and yet we believe? Indeed, by seeking a sign to be closer to Him, we are becoming an adulterous generation.
Matthew 12:39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Jesus having been risen should be enough of a sign for any believer. To keep looking after a sign to get closer to God in a worship place where outside of us is the spirit of the antichrist as opposed to when He is in us, is committing spiritual fornication. May they repent that have gone astray by returning to their first love, and chase no more after seducing spirits for the "miraculous".
2 Corinthians 11:[SUP]3 [/SUP]But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.[SUP] 4 [/SUP]For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
2 Corinthians 13:[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.....[SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
Matthew 12:39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Jesus having been risen should be enough of a sign for any believer. To keep looking after a sign to get closer to God in a worship place where outside of us is the spirit of the antichrist as opposed to when He is in us, is committing spiritual fornication. May they repent that have gone astray by returning to their first love, and chase no more after seducing spirits for the "miraculous".
2 Corinthians 11:[SUP]3 [/SUP]But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.[SUP] 4 [/SUP]For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
2 Corinthians 13:[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.....[SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
In Him we live and move and have our being. He holds all things together by the word of His power. He fashioned me in my mother's womb and continues to do so with every newborn in their mother's womb. He draws people to Himself by the work of His Spirit. He cleanses from sin, heals broken hearts, forgives, restores relationships, encourages, guides, steers away from error, reveals truth, protects from harm, etc. etc. etc.
Nope, I guess you're right, no miracles happening today.
By the way, Jesus does not call us to have faith apart from sight. Our faith is the certainty of things not seen, but that doesn't mean there is no evidence to support the faith. Instead, there is plenty of evidence for us to believe in Jesus, Who He is and what He has done. On that evidence we can have the certainty in those things which we cannot presently see.
Nope, I guess you're right, no miracles happening today.
By the way, Jesus does not call us to have faith apart from sight. Our faith is the certainty of things not seen, but that doesn't mean there is no evidence to support the faith. Instead, there is plenty of evidence for us to believe in Jesus, Who He is and what He has done. On that evidence we can have the certainty in those things which we cannot presently see.
BUT because of lies in the world and in science, some may need help in looking at the empty tomb again.
1 Corinthians 15:[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?[SUP] 13 [/SUP]But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:[SUP] 14 [/SUP]And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.[SUP] 15 [/SUP]Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.[SUP] 16 [/SUP]For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:[SUP] 17 [/SUP]And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.[SUP] 18 [/SUP]Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.[SUP] 19 [/SUP]If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.[SUP] 20 [/SUP]But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.[SUP] 21 [/SUP]For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.[SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Jesus many times said after He performed a miracle to not tell anyone.
Why is that. There were many tricksters around at the time and He
didn't want His works to be clumped in with those. Another thing is that
He wanted us to have faith and not have people rely on miracles to believe.
He said to Thomas, you believe because you have seen but blessed are they
who have not seen yet believe. I was dead on the road while driving my
car one day. If it was at an earlier time when defibrillators were not yet
invented, I would not have been resuscitated. Is that a miracle or not. I
don't know, but I trust in my soul that I was saved by Christ. At this point
in life and even prior to that incident, my faith rested solely on my Lord
Jesus without having it proved to me by miracles. Upon my life being saved
in that incident, I thanked God and still do everyday for all of what Christ has
done for me, most importantly giving me eternal life half way through my
earthly life. What is a miracle and what isn't depends on who defines it. The
only miracle if we want to call it that is that He gave us eternal life and love
is what takes us to His mansion.
Why is that. There were many tricksters around at the time and He
didn't want His works to be clumped in with those. Another thing is that
He wanted us to have faith and not have people rely on miracles to believe.
He said to Thomas, you believe because you have seen but blessed are they
who have not seen yet believe. I was dead on the road while driving my
car one day. If it was at an earlier time when defibrillators were not yet
invented, I would not have been resuscitated. Is that a miracle or not. I
don't know, but I trust in my soul that I was saved by Christ. At this point
in life and even prior to that incident, my faith rested solely on my Lord
Jesus without having it proved to me by miracles. Upon my life being saved
in that incident, I thanked God and still do everyday for all of what Christ has
done for me, most importantly giving me eternal life half way through my
earthly life. What is a miracle and what isn't depends on who defines it. The
only miracle if we want to call it that is that He gave us eternal life and love
is what takes us to His mansion.
H
Where you been?
Jesus has not retired.
You and your teachers did.
Google " cushings disease"
My dog was a walking dead zombie from advanced incurable cushings.
I was even on the forum where we all were waiting for the nightmare to end.
Then Jesus showed up.
He said " mat 18;18"
I got the only dog in the world SUPERNATURALLY HEALED OF CUSHINGS.
File that under" Jesus is the same".
BIG TIME THE SAME.
Jesus has not retired.
You and your teachers did.
Google " cushings disease"
My dog was a walking dead zombie from advanced incurable cushings.
I was even on the forum where we all were waiting for the nightmare to end.
Then Jesus showed up.
He said " mat 18;18"
I got the only dog in the world SUPERNATURALLY HEALED OF CUSHINGS.
File that under" Jesus is the same".
BIG TIME THE SAME.
No, I agree that such miracles ended in the first century... The blind don't instantly receive their sight, and there have been no authenticated accounts in the modern day church where a man or woman of God has laid hands on a dead person and raised them to life.. That's the evidence that it just doesn't happen. These were one time occurrences that were used by God to establish the authenticity of the New Testament church. Miracles were performed as proof of divinity or proof that the messenger was from God. Today, those who call themselves “faith healers” are not biblical in any sense, and most faith healers have been exposed as charlatans.
That said, I do believe God performs miracles, just not in the miraculous way designated in the new testament. As Paul wrote, those gifts were "Confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders" (Hebrews 2:3&4). "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds" (2 Corinthians 12:12). Confirmation was completed, confirmed, and recorded, we now accept and live by faith alone.
That's my take on it... But we see miracles wherever we want. Life is a miracle, a tree is a miracle, the human DNA is evidence, and I suppose it could be defined as miraculous, but more of a natural occurrence and proof of creation, not a miracle.
That said, I do believe God performs miracles, just not in the miraculous way designated in the new testament. As Paul wrote, those gifts were "Confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders" (Hebrews 2:3&4). "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds" (2 Corinthians 12:12). Confirmation was completed, confirmed, and recorded, we now accept and live by faith alone.
That's my take on it
... But we see miracles wherever we want. Life is a miracle, a tree is a miracle, the human DNA is evidence, and I suppose it could be defined as miraculous, but more of a natural occurrence and proof of creation, not a miracle.
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To all who believe miracles have ceased, or are limited today, please take 40 minutes to listen to this video...
[video=youtube;szP8ZgsVhbg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szP8ZgsVhbg[/video]
For those who choose not to watch it, Dr. Keener addresses this issue and shares quite a few testimonials of miraculous healing. Basically, he says that miracles of this sort are common in Africa, Asia and Latin America, and surprisingly frequent in the western world.
[video=youtube;szP8ZgsVhbg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szP8ZgsVhbg[/video]
For those who choose not to watch it, Dr. Keener addresses this issue and shares quite a few testimonials of miraculous healing. Basically, he says that miracles of this sort are common in Africa, Asia and Latin America, and surprisingly frequent in the western world.
How many of the accounts of modern resurrections from the dead have you researched to determine if they were 'authenticated.' Please list all the accounts. Have you researched every single claim and account? There was a missionary in Indonesian Papua who is said to have raised a young child from the dead by the power of God, after which the Gospel started to make in-roads among the tribesman. I could look up the name, but you can tell me since you know whether this particular account has been authenticated or not, based on your previous post.
Dan58 is under no obligation to authenticate any claim but his own. It is you, presidente who is obligated to authenticate your claim, which you have made many. If there are authenticated accounts of these events please stop talking about it and just present the authenticated account for us to see. Better yet, explain why we cannot see these physical supernatural events? The key word being "physical". Surely someone has a reasonable answer to such a simple question. ANY TAKERS.
Can anyone explain why people of your ilk don't expect lost limbs to regrow or pray for the dead to raise again? ANY TAKERS?
When pressed to answer such simple questions, what is the response? "Well you need to read this 1200 page book by Dr. Craig Keener or watch this Asbury Theological Seminary lectureship series. Poppycock! Your emperor is naked. Have the backbone to admit.
Can anyone explain why people of your ilk don't expect lost limbs to regrow or pray for the dead to raise again? ANY TAKERS?
When pressed to answer such simple questions, what is the response? "Well you need to read this 1200 page book by Dr. Craig Keener or watch this Asbury Theological Seminary lectureship series. Poppycock! Your emperor is naked. Have the backbone to admit.
And that was what I was asking him to do, to authenticate his own assertions.
I don't see the dead raised on every streetcorner, but there are numerous accounts of it that someone who is really interested could look up. I'm thinking the name of that missionary who prayed for the drowned toddler in Irian Jaya, now Papua, was Jim Yost. If you are interested, you could travel there, get an interpreter and interview the people involved.
Pete Cabrera claims that someone was raised from the dead. He said he called someone who works with TV news about it, but the man said no one would run a story like that. But you could fly to Oklahoma and interview people and listen to the testimony of witnesses.
You are clearly ignorant and do not know what you are talking about.
I don't see the dead raised on every streetcorner, but there are numerous accounts of it that someone who is really interested could look up. I'm thinking the name of that missionary who prayed for the drowned toddler in Irian Jaya, now Papua, was Jim Yost. If you are interested, you could travel there, get an interpreter and interview the people involved.
Pete Cabrera claims that someone was raised from the dead. He said he called someone who works with TV news about it, but the man said no one would run a story like that. But you could fly to Oklahoma and interview people and listen to the testimony of witnesses.
You are clearly ignorant and do not know what you are talking about.
Can you not see that it is you who is making these assertions? Do you not read your own posts?
"Peter Cabrera claims that someone was raised from the dead."...."But you could fly to Oklahoma and interview people and listen to the testimony of witnesses."
You write the above assertion but expect others to authenticate it? And you call me "clearly ignorant".
"Peter Cabrera claims that someone was raised from the dead."...."But you could fly to Oklahoma and interview people and listen to the testimony of witnesses."
You write the above assertion but expect others to authenticate it? And you call me "clearly ignorant".
Dan58 asserted that no modern claims of a resurrection have been 'authenticated.' If he says such a thing, he should be able tell us about his followup on every case.
Btw, I'm not writing a book on the topic here. I'm participating in an Internet forum. So I'm not going to fly around verifying cases for that. But I do grow tired of the new atheist-style epistemology on a ChristianChat.
You are clearly ignorant because you don't know the kinds of things people pray for, and you are also over-confident about it.
You can say you haven't seen evidence. But don't claim evidence doesn't exist if you haven't examined the evidence. It is fair for me to point you in the direction of evidence.
Btw, I'm not writing a book on the topic here. I'm participating in an Internet forum. So I'm not going to fly around verifying cases for that. But I do grow tired of the new atheist-style epistemology on a ChristianChat.
You are clearly ignorant because you don't know the kinds of things people pray for, and you are also over-confident about it.
You can say you haven't seen evidence. But don't claim evidence doesn't exist if you haven't examined the evidence. It is fair for me to point you in the direction of evidence.
Maybe he is referring to the fact that you reject the teaching of scripture. If you believed I Corinthians 12, for example, you would believe that the Spirit enables individuals to heal and to perform miracles as He wills. It is obvious from your posts that you broadly dismiss such things as... as you put it here, 'parlor tricks.' If you believed the scripture, you would realize that it is quite possible that such things may happen. If you heard of an account of such a thing happening, you would realize it needs to be evaluated on its own merits. And you should also have the fear of the LORD and be careful against risking that you might rashly, foolishly, and blindly speaking out against the works of the Spirit.
I too suggest anyone interested in this issue to watch the video, it is the opening talk of a larger lectureship attempting to prove that we are living in an age of physical supernatural acts of the Holy Spirit such as in the New Testament. Please also watch the 45 minute video of him making numerous claims of people across the world being raised from the dead. Don't miss his 46 minute video on how the Holy Spirit has been performing physical supernatural acts throughout the world non-stop since the time of Jesus.
All three videos are him talking into a mike, reeling off countless examples of physical supernatural acts of healing, all the while suffering from a very bad cold. Why he didn't ask one of the people in his audience who were claiming to also have the gift of healing to get rid of his cold I will never understand. Don't expect him to present any of the people who were raised from the dead either, but he does have some nice slides and pictures.
So yes, I too insist you watch this video. You will see the extant of what he and his ilk call evidence.
The only people who would accept this as evidence are those who already want it to be true.
P.S. If you like David Hume, beware Dr. Keener is not a fan.
All three videos are him talking into a mike, reeling off countless examples of physical supernatural acts of healing, all the while suffering from a very bad cold. Why he didn't ask one of the people in his audience who were claiming to also have the gift of healing to get rid of his cold I will never understand. Don't expect him to present any of the people who were raised from the dead either, but he does have some nice slides and pictures.
So yes, I too insist you watch this video. You will see the extant of what he and his ilk call evidence.
The only people who would accept this as evidence are those who already want it to be true.
P.S. If you like David Hume, beware Dr. Keener is not a fan.
That's your point?
"With a broader definition,"? So you water down the definition of miracles to mean any act of God, physical or not and that means the OP is wrong? So all creation is miraculous? All ages are miraculous?
Okay Dino246 you got me. We are living in an age of the miraculous just like the New Testament and the Exodus.
Boy was I wrong.
"With a broader definition,"? So you water down the definition of miracles to mean any act of God, physical or not and that means the OP is wrong? So all creation is miraculous? All ages are miraculous?
Okay Dino246 you got me. We are living in an age of the miraculous just like the New Testament and the Exodus.
Boy was I wrong.
So your thinking if these gifts exist, then that mean someone with the gift of healing will be in the room, and will be able to heal at will?
You seem assume healing just happens whenever people want it to, without regard to the will of God or other factors. Paul was sick when he first met the Galatians. They would have plucked out their own eyes and given them to him if they could have. Paul also left a coworker sick on an island and went on. Before Peter raised Dorcas/Tabitha from the dead, he knelt down and prayed. Why didn't he just raise her up if it was just by his own choice? Paul told the one who spoke in tongues to pray that he may interpret. Why pray if spiritual gifts just operate according to human will? But he did miracles as well. Paul told a lame man to stand up after he saw he had faith to be healed. In Ephesus, it says God worked extraordinary miracles through the hands of Paul. God worked the miracles.
Do you think healing is just like one of Superman's power, where if he wants to fly, he just does it, and if he wants to use X-ray vision, he just does it?
You seem assume healing just happens whenever people want it to, without regard to the will of God or other factors. Paul was sick when he first met the Galatians. They would have plucked out their own eyes and given them to him if they could have. Paul also left a coworker sick on an island and went on. Before Peter raised Dorcas/Tabitha from the dead, he knelt down and prayed. Why didn't he just raise her up if it was just by his own choice? Paul told the one who spoke in tongues to pray that he may interpret. Why pray if spiritual gifts just operate according to human will? But he did miracles as well. Paul told a lame man to stand up after he saw he had faith to be healed. In Ephesus, it says God worked extraordinary miracles through the hands of Paul. God worked the miracles.
Do you think healing is just like one of Superman's power, where if he wants to fly, he just does it, and if he wants to use X-ray vision, he just does it?