Do we live in an age of the miraculous?

[presidente]

Dr. Keener clearly states that he has a bad cold. He clearly asks for a show of hands from the audience on how many of them have the gift of healing. He clearly states that there are healers in the audience. No one even offers to try to heal him. What more can I say but watch the video that your ilk presents.

Like I said, I didn't see the whole thing. Maybe if I'm still interested and have time after I get back home, I'll consider it. The convention of not interrupting a speaker is a pretty strong one. It is your assumption that people who heal by a gift of the Spirit do so at will, whenever they want. I doubt the position of anyone in the audience there.

1st Corinthians 12 most certainly documents the existence of the gifts during Paul's time, but there is no mention of these gifts being passed on from generation to generation. If you can show a verse that states it will please let us know. If not I suggest to accept that your emperor is naked.

What would you say to someone who says, "But John 3:16 doesn't say you can be saved in the 21st century. Where does the verse specifically say the 21st century."

How would you address someone who argued that the teachings against murder, theft, and adultery were given to audiences between 1800 (or whatever) BC and 65 AD, and therefore do not apply to Christians in modern times? How would you respond to someone who argued that church teachings on elders or church discipline did not apply today for the same reasons?

What is your basis for saying that the Spirit stopped working the way the Bible teaches He works in the church? From a doctrinal perspective, the burden is on you to prove the change occurred which moved away from what the Bible teaches.

As for your particular objection, as Paul started to write this epistle in which he would deal with such issues as speaking in tongues and prophesying in church, he wrote, 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' Paul did not envision that the gifts would cease before Jesus came back.

Did you even read the OP? It states clearly that I believe the miraculous exist, just not presently. Does this make me a non-Christian?

Peter and the other apostles were admonished for their unbelief at times.

 

[Dino246]

...
I make no claim of a verse stating that these miracles continue. I challenge you to come up with one stating that they don't. Don't waste time with 1 Corinthians 13, because God changes the wording to "perfection, which means completed scripture", it doesn't support your view. Don't make doctrine from silence.

Correction... because until God changes...

 

[notuptome]

How can you say that? You'd have had to follow Him around for the whole time He was doing miracles to say that.

So much education and so little knowledge. The bible does not record any miracle inside the temple. They could not keep the miracles that Jesus did private as they were noised around like wild fire even when Jesus told them not to say anything.

How can you say that? We know Peter performed a miracle in the name of Jesus at the Gate Beautiful. Was that at the inside part of the gate or on the outside part or right on the border? How can you know?

How can you not know? Miracles were to proclaim Christ to the people not the religious leaders. Why would the modern church be any different?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

So much education and so little knowledge. The bible does not record any miracle inside the temple. They could not keep the miracles that Jesus did private as they were noised around like wild fire even when Jesus told them not to say anything.

Since you worded it badly to start, why respond to me with an insult. Why not just say you were wrong, and you should have said that the Bible doesn't record Jesus doing any miracles in the temple.

How can you not know? Miracles were to proclaim Christ to the people not the religious leaders. Why would the modern church be any different?

The people gathered in the temple.

 

[notuptome]

Since you worded it badly to start, why respond to me with an insult. Why not just say you were wrong, and you should have said that the Bible doesn't record Jesus doing any miracles in the temple.

I expect more from you. To whom much is given much is expected.

There is always a reason for God to do or not to do in the affairs of men. Jesus did not perform miracles before the Pharisees because they were religious and only interested in protecting what they had through religion. Not much different than todays organized church.

The people gathered in the temple.

People gather lots of places.

The miracles Jesus did were to fulfill prophecy and to proclaim Him as the promised Messiah.

What would be the purpose of such miracles today?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[DJ2]

Dino. Hiding behind watered down definitions that label everything miraculous and anecdotal banter which proves nothing is not a defense. What proves physical events is physical evidence.

If you think these physical supernatural events are happening, why can no one record them?

There is only one plausible answer, they are not happening. This explains why limbs are not regrown and the dead are not raised, because that would be rather hard to fake.

"My pastor healed my backache" is easy but "my pastor restored my missing leg" is not.

Jesus said to those who doubted His gospel, "Which is easier to say your sins are forgiven or to say get up and walk" (Matthew 9:5) This is what your ilk does not understand. Anyone can talk but evidence trumps all and lack of evidence exposes fraud.

Better to be a sarcastic and snarky Christian who understands the difference between the natural and the supernatural, then one void of the ability to see how absurd this theology is.

What is my agenda? "For false messiahs and fake prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive , if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the wilderness,' do not go out,' "Here he is, here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it." (Matthew 24:24-26) Jesus Himself saying not to believe false claims.

I am quite aware that you have no intention of changing your mind on this issue. I write these posts to expose the foolishness of such a devilish narrative as you are suggesting. Giving a false gospel of signs and wonders to a world that should embrace what Jesus commanded, a gospel based on faith apart from sight.

Something you will never know.

 

[FlSnookman7]

God delivered me from over 3 decades of alcoholism and addiction, if that isn't a miracle I don't know what qualifies.

 

[DJ2]

Like I said, I didn't see the whole thing. Maybe if I'm still interested and have time after I get back home, I'll consider it. The convention of not interrupting a speaker is a pretty strong one. It is your assumption that people who heal by a gift of the Spirit do so at will, whenever they want. I doubt the position of anyone in the audience there.



What would you say to someone who says, "But John 3:16 doesn't say you can be saved in the 21st century. Where does the verse specifically say the 21st century."

How would you address someone who argued that the teachings against murder, theft, and adultery were given to audiences between 1800 (or whatever) BC and 65 AD, and therefore do not apply to Christians in modern times? How would you respond to someone who argued that church teachings on elders or church discipline did not apply today for the same reasons?

What is your basis for saying that the Spirit stopped working the way the Bible teaches He works in the church? From a doctrinal perspective, the burden is on you to prove the change occurred which moved away from what the Bible teaches.

As for your particular objection, as Paul started to write this epistle in which he would deal with such issues as speaking in tongues and prophesying in church, he wrote, 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' Paul did not envision that the gifts would cease before Jesus came back.



Peter and the other apostles were admonished for their unbelief at times.

Trying to make sense of you and your ilk is like a visit to the Mad Hatter's tea party.

Whats up is down.
Whats natural is now supernatural.
Whats pragmatic is now unreasonable.
Whats logical is now unfounded.

Your line of reasoning is chaotic and borderline reprobate.

 

[tourist]

I think Donald Trump's victory over Hillary Clinton was a bit miraculous, considering that Hillary was ahead in the polls.

Trump's victory was an act of God.

 

[DJ2]

God delivered me from over 3 decades of alcoholism and addiction, if that isn't a miracle I don't know what qualifies.

The physical supernatural miracles of the Bible, that's what qualifies.

 

[DJ2]

Trump's victory was an act of God.

It may well have been a act of God but was it a physical supernatural act of the Holy Spirit? Are you willing to go there?

 

[Zen]

There is only one plausible answer, they are not happening. This explains why limbs are not regrown and the dead are not raised, because that would be rather hard to fake.

Matthew 8:4
And Jesus saith unto him, See thoutell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them

I can find 3 instances of "tell no man" in each gospel, of Matthew, Mark and Luke, but none in John.

Mark 7:36
And he charged them that they should tell no man: but the more he charged them, so much the more a great deal they published it

I don't really know why some miracles were done privately, maybe because God knew that they wouldn't be able to contain their amazement and their testimony would give more glory to God.

Also I think the reason few have seen things like that happen is that it doesn't normally happen to Christians, so there aren't many people growing back limbs while filming it. God's enemy wants our faith to be weak, so if a person is truly in God and amazed by Him and is faithful, I am 100% certain they can do these things.

Can you imagine how bad it would be for God's enemy if a video appeared on Youtube of a Christian growing back limbs by praying?

 

[DJ2]

Matthew 8:4
And Jesus saith unto him, See thoutell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them

I can find 3 instances of "tell no man" in each gospel, of Matthew, Mark and Luke, but none in John.

Mark 7:36
And he charged them that they should tell no man: but the more he charged them, so much the more a great deal they published it

I don't really know why some miracles were done privately, maybe because God knew that they wouldn't be able to contain their amazement and their testimony would give more glory to God.

Also I think the reason few have seen things like that happen is that it doesn't normally happen to Christians, so there aren't many people growing back limbs while filming it. God's enemy wants our faith to be weak, so if a person is truly in God and amazed by Him and is faithful, I am 100% certain they can do these things.

Can you imagine how bad it would be for God's enemy if a video appeared on Youtube of a Christian growing back limbs by praying?

Or maybe its not happening...........maybe?

 

[Dino246]

Dino. Hiding behind watered down definitions that label everything miraculous and anecdotal banter which proves nothing is not a defense. What proves physical events is physical evidence.

Neither am I hiding nor am I using a watered-down definition. We already dealt with the definition issue. You prefer "miraculous" to only include such events as raising from the dead, limbs re-growing, and the like. Even the definition you chose does not so limit the concept. I simply consider a broader range of things "miraculous", a position that is consistent with the biblical witness and with the definition you chose.

There is only one plausible answer, they are not happening.

Logical fallacy. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

"My pastor healed my backache" is easy but "my pastor restored my missing leg" is not.

Even if my pastor were the one praying, I wouldn't claim that he healed anything, at any time. I wouldn't claim that a person with a "healing gift" healed anything, at any time. Jesus is the God Who heals, and He gets all the glory.

Better to be a sarcastic and snarky Christian who understands the difference between the natural and the supernatural, then one void of the ability to see how absurd this theology is.

Logical fallacy X2: category error and ad hominem attack. Doctrinal error; it is never better to espouse or practice attitudes contrary to the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

What is my agenda? "For false messiahs and fake prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive , if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the wilderness,' do not go out,' "Here he is, here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it." (Matthew 24:24-26) Jesus Himself saying not to believe false claims.

I am quite aware that you have no intention of changing your mind on this issue. I write these posts to expose the foolishness of such a devilish narrative as you are suggesting. Giving a false gospel of signs and wonders to a world that should embrace what Jesus commanded, a gospel based on faith apart from sight.

Logical fallacy: ad hominem attack.

Show me where Jesus commanded (not merely lauded) that we have faith apart from sight. Go back to my earlier post where I explained that faith in Jesus is based on evidence from many streams, including primarily the witness of the Old Testament. If you think otherwise, then I suggest you prove your position. I've supported mine quite adequately.

You have either misunderstood or misrepresented my position badly. I don't claim to go around telling people to believe in a false Jesus or a false prophet, or in a gospel based particularly on signs and wonders done in the present. I don't support ministries that do. However, God still performs miracles, a fact fully consistent with the Gospel as recorded in Scripture. My faith doesn't rest on the miracles, but rather on Who Jesus is and the work that He finished on the cross.

You can no more prove that miracles don't still happen than an atheist can prove that God doesn't exist. It's impossible both logically and practically. If you choose to believe such, go ahead.

Something you will never know.

Yet another ad hominem attack. Since you claim to be a Christian, then act like it and stick to the issues.

 

[Dan58]

How many of the accounts of modern resurrections from the dead have you researched to determine if they were 'authenticated.' Please list all the accounts. Have you researched every single claim and account? There was a missionary in Indonesian Papua who is said to have raised a young child from the dead by the power of God, after which the Gospel started to make in-roads among the tribesman. I could look up the name, but you can tell me since you know whether this particular account has been authenticated or not, based on your previous post.

No offense, but I don't believe these remote stories of the dead being resurrected in obscure places. In this modern age where everything is caught on video, isn't it odd that no cell phone captured these miracles? Its kind of like UFO sightings, its always Jeb and Bo who spotted a UFO in the back woods after finishing a case of beer .

True miracles remove the necessity of faith, and since we are called by faith, I don't believe they are performed today. "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" (John 20:29). I have no problem with those who want to believe that miraculous events still take place today, but seeing is believing, and I've never seen one. "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matthew 24:24).

I believe the purpose of NT miracles no longer constitute a mainline evidence for the truth, and individuals do not (as in apostolic times) have the gift of miracles. While some who claim to have the gift of miracles today have succeeded in convincing many of their supernatural powers, the actual investigation of their operation, which in some cases may be supported by individual miracles here and there, is often found to be quite deceptive, and often the alleged hearings are psychologically instead of supernaturally effected.

Sorry for my delayed response, I don't check this site everyday.

 

[oldethennew]

God delivered me from over 3 decades of alcoholism and addiction, if that isn't a miracle I don't know what qualifies.

=====================================================

you are very sweet FIS, but Jesus was holding your hand and standing beside you in order
to uphold you in what your true heart desired - a holy miracle indeed!!!

 

[stillness]

"You have saved the best wine until last." Those who have interpretation know that the best is yet to come, "Creation groans and travails for the manifestation of the sons of God' during the greatest time of trouble will be the greatest move of the Holy Spirit" it will happen in my lifetime, 34 years ago the Lord gave me this word, "Behold I am with you in a time of trouble such as never was and shall never be again."

 

[Dino246]

It may well have been a act of God but was it a physical supernatural act of the Holy Spirit? Are you willing to go there?

Not being an American, I'm not going to address the issue of Trump's victory, but your reasoning here is absolutely ridiculous and self-refuting.

 

[DJ2]

Not being an American, I'm not going to address the issue of Trump's victory, but your reasoning here is absolutely ridiculous and self-refuting.

Explain whats so "absolutely ridiculous and self-refuting"?

 

[Dino246]

Explain whats so "absolutely ridiculous and self-refuting"?

The Holy Spirit is God. Trump's victory happened in the physical world. I honestly cannot grasp your distinction between an "act of God" and an act of the Holy Spirit. They are one and the same.