The Rapture

[KJV1611]

You certainly hit the nail on the head when you said, "We have different understandings."

First of all, could you Please include the Book, Chapter, and Version with your Bible Quotes. Thank You.

SECOND, I have a question first. Hasn't any of your Pastors in your life told you it is Critically important, to read the entire Context, before you even begin to try to interpret a verse in Scripture? I have heard that SO MANY TIMES, that I could not begin to count them.

Here is the verse you were quoting:

John 7:38 (KJV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 7:38 (NKJV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."

John 7:38 (HCSB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, will have streams of living water flow from deep within him.”


NOW, here is what it says in Zech.

Zechariah 14:8 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.

Hang on VCO, we are told in John 7 that LIVING WATER is the Holy Ghost. If LIVING WATER is the Holy Ghost in John 7 then why is it not the Holy Ghost in Zechariah 14:8?

John 7:38-39 KJV
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. [39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given ; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[heartofdavid]

I think I'm starting to see the disconnect between dispensationalist and non-dispensationalist.

Dispensationalist believe that the milennial kingdom is going be like a magical kingdom where plants and animals will speak audibly, and mountains will drop literal new wine and the hills will flow with literal milk and literal rivers will flow with literal "living" water that sustains life. So when the bible talks about any of these things and history doesn't back up those facts, that means it happens in the milinneum.

Non-dispensationalist believe that all those things are symbolic of spiritual things that have been mostly fulfilled by Christ at the first coming because the bible says "this was done to fulfill...".

Dispies take everything literal and non-dispies take everything non-literal... the truth is probably some where between those 2 views.

Well,no,we just see what is in the word and believe it. We have not the need to go down the "God is finished with his covenant people" avenue.


Romans 11King James Version (KJV)11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I see vs 25 as particularly problematic for you guys since it not only addresses the fallacy of preaching against dispensation,but annihilates any assumption that God is done with his covenant people Israel.

 

[Issachar92]

There should be absolutely no doubt that God fought on the side of the Romans. They even understood it as recorded by Josephus:

Now when Titus was come into this [upper] city, he admired not only some other places of strength in it, but particularly those strong towers which the tyrants in their mad conduct had relinquished; for when he saw their solid altitude, and the largeness of their several stones, and the exactness of their joints, as also how great was their breadth, and how extensive their length, he expressed himself after the manner following: "We have certainly had God for our assistant in this war, and it was no other than God who ejected the Jews out of these fortifications; for what could the hands of men or any machines do towards overthrowing these towers?"

WHYYYYYYY!? Why must you torment me with Josephus aaagh. Bruh... Day after day I read this forum and you manage to pull up a different quote from this guy. How much did he write? Dude was a librarian or something, wrote more than all the Apostles combined.

 

[heartofdavid]

Dallas Seminary. This place has produced the greats like Hal Lindsey? I do not take anything seriously coming out of there to be honest, so many false prophecies and predictions from the blood moons to the y2k.

I would be careful with any doctrine that has become hollywood and enjoyed by the world(left behind..). Not saying this to discredit the good pastors or teachers who might of came from Dallas Seminary, but as an institution I would be very suspicious based on the history of some of these guys.

That is called disenfranchisement.

Shooting down the messenger.

It is an incubator for "condemnation before investigation"

 

[heartofdavid]

Originally Posted by PlainWord

The Great Tribulation is the 5 month period of intense suffering inside Jerusalem with Titus laying siege and starving them inside. The GT ended when the Romans broke through ending the suffering and putting Jerusalem out of her misery. It was at this point that Christ's presence was seen and felt as He came in wrath using the Roman army just as God used Assyria and Babylon in the past to punish.

No, it was a 7 year period from AD67-73. Hence it was called 'The days Of Vengeance' by Christ, as the blueprint for Daniel's 70 Weeks entails one day being equal to one year.

The GT is future,or.........how did history totally miss the flying scorpions and the mark of the beast???

Fiery hailstones?????

One taken,one left?????????

Wanna buy a bridge???????

 

[J7]

Well,no,we just see what is in the word and believe it. We have not the need to go down the "God is finished with his covenant people" avenue.


Romans 11King James Version (KJV)11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I see vs 25 as particularly problematic for you guys since it not only addresses the fallacy of preaching against dispensation,but annihilates any assumption that God is done with his covenant people Israel.

but the fulness came in; it is done. The 144,000 were complete 2000 years ago

 

[J7]

The GT is future,or.........how did history totally miss the flying scorpions and the mark of the beast???

Fiery hailstones?????

One taken,one left?????????

Wanna buy a bridge???????

What have flying scorpions got to do with the Great Tribulation?

 

[KJV1611]

The GT is future,or.........how did history totally miss the flying scorpions and the mark of the beast???

Fiery hailstones?????

One taken,one left?????????

Wanna buy a bridge???????

The same way they missed this in Jesus day.

Psalm 22:1 KJV
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

 

[KJV1611]

Well,no,we just see what is in the word and believe it. We have not the need to go down the "God is finished with his covenant people" avenue.


Romans 11King James Version (KJV)11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I see vs 25 as particularly problematic for you guys since it not only addresses the fallacy of preaching against dispensation,but annihilates any assumption that God is done with his covenant people Israel.

God's chosen people have never been the flesh descendants of Abraham or Israel. The children of the promise are the chosen ones.

 

[KJV1611]

For those with ears to hear, the former sea is the old testament and the hinder or "situated in the BACK" sea is the new testament. The verse is talking about the Holy Spirit bringing life to the old testament and a prophecy of the coming of the new testament.

Zechariah 14:8 KJV
And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

 

[Issachar92]

God's chosen people have never been the flesh descendants of Abraham or Israel. The children of the promise are the chosen ones.

Romans 9:3-8
[FONT=&quot]3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom arethe fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Romans 11:25-28ff
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. [/FONT]

 

[KJV1611]

Romans 9:3-8
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom arethe fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Romans 11:25-28ff

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”


28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Was Isaac a child of the flesh or no? Yes he was. The children of the flesh ARE NOT the children of God. This is very easy to understand, flesh decendants of Israel ARE NOT God's people.

Isaac wasn't CHOSEN because he was a flesh descendant because the children of the flesh ARE NOT the children of God. Now, why was Isaac one of God's chosen people if his flesh descent had absolutely NOTHING to do with it?

 

[J7]

yes, but this was all completed 2000 years ago.

Romans 9:3-8
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom arethe fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Romans 11:25-28ff

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”


28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[KJV1611]

Galatians 4:28 KJV
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Now WE BRETHREN (Galatian GENTILES) ARE the children of the promise JUST LIKE Issac was. How are Gentiles that don't have a drop of Abraham nor Isaac's, nor Israel's blood in them, HOW are they and me God's chosen people?

 

[RickyZ]

It's interesting how people who DO see a gap in Daniels weeks, have very low reading comprehension lol. Can you show me where I said I see a 2000+ year milennium in the bible?

I'm curious where you get the idea they have low reading comprehension... I would think that would take actual testing to verify. Perhaps it's because people here tend to read what they want to hear, and not what is actually written here? That goes equally on both sides, I have found.

And I was just commenting in agreement with your saying "If the 1000 year reign was called the 2000 year reign then I would buy the fact that it could be the new testament age." I find it very hard to equate a finite word like millennium, defined as 1,000 years, with a time period actually being 2000 years. Yet many do.

Is that a reading comprehension thing? Reading 1k to mean 2k?

Sorry to pop in and out here, I do have a life and get my time in when I can. I hope I'm not being disruptive.

And bless you brother, this is one of the most peaceful rapture threads I've seen in some time!

 

[KJV1611]

I'm curious where you get the idea they have low reading comprehension... I would think that would take actual testing to verify. Perhaps it's because people here tend to read what they want to hear, and not what is actually written here? That goes equally on both sides, I have found.

And I was just commenting in agreement with your saying "If the 1000 year reign was called the 2000 year reign then I would buy the fact that it could be the new testament age." I find it very hard to equate a finite word like millennium, defined as 1,000 years, with a time period actually being 2000 years. Yet many do.

Is that a reading comprehension thing? Reading 1k to mean 2k?

Sorry to pop in and out here, I do have a life and get my time in when I can. I hope I'm not being disruptive.

And bless you brother, this is one of the most peaceful rapture threads I've seen in some time!

Preterist believe we are in the 1000 years right now during the church age. The church age lasts 2000 years. I was saying that if the 1000 year reign was actually a two thousand year reign then I might buy it because it matches the length of time of the church.

And thanks for your kind rebuttal.

 

[shrume]

Preterist believe we are in the 1000 years right now during the church age. The church age lasts 2000 years. I was saying that if the 1000 year reign was actually a two thousand year reign then I might buy it because it matches the length of time of the church.

So for Preterists, 1000 years = 2000 years?

That's some funny math...

 

[Issachar92]

More madness and confusion. 144 000 happened already, WHEN?
Seas symbolize old and new covenant in some way in zech 14:8? Where did you come up with that? I present to you the danger of allegory, anything can mean anything.


To try to unravel this whirlwind of weirdness, can yall hit me up and tell me exactly WHY Revelation cant be future? Because it says soon is that it?

 

[KJV1611]

More madness and confusion. 144 000 happened already, WHEN?
Seas symbolize old and new covenant in some way in zech 14:8? Where did you come up with that? I present to you the danger of allegory, anything can mean anything.


To try to unravel this whirlwind of weirdness, can yall hit me up and tell me exactly WHY Revelation cant be future? Because it says soon is that it?

So what do you think LIVING WATERS flow into... literal seas? Remember the new testament already told us that the living waters are the Holy Ghost.

 

[VCO]

I fail to see how a verse which refers to YHWH of Hosts can be said to prove the deity of Jesus. Only to those who read Jesus in where it doesn't say Jesus

YOU DO NOT BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD IN THE FLESH, DO YOU?

Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

Luke 2:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Today a Savior, who is Messiah the Lord, was born for you in the city of David.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (ASV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Matthew 1:23 (ASV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.

Colossians 2:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Genesis 1:1 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


Colossians 1:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Colossians 1:18-19 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For God was pleased ⌊to have⌋ all His fullness dwell in Him,

Romans 1:19-21 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened.