The Olivet Discourse

[Locutus]

There is no gap in Daniel's 70 weeks.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Dan 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, ALL these things shall be finished.

The "power of the holy people" i.e. Old Covenant/Jerusalem was completely shattered in the war of 66-70 AD when "thy holy city" was destroyed.

"scatter" is a poor translation of the Hebrew word "naphats"

Strongs

H5310 naphats naw-fats'

a primitive root;

to dash to pieces, or scatter:--be beaten in sunder, break (in pieces),
broken, dash (in pieces), cause to be discharged, dispersed, be overspread,
scatter.

Is there any doubt that their power was gone after 70 AD?

That clump of dirt in the middle east no longer houses the "holy city"...

 

[Bogadile]

Locutus you mention many things as poorly translated. But with all due respect why should I believe you and not the actual scholars who translated the Bible? Many of these guys are genuises. The King James translators spoke a ton of languages and could actually speak greek not just use software to look for definitions. I used to check everything from the greek and look at what words mean, but things have so many definitions that I noticed myself picking and choosing what fits my idea, and not what the language and sentence structure most likely suggests, and that is where the translators most likely know what they are doing.

I say this not with the intention of starting a fight or derailing the topic, just figured I should mention it if someone else is going through the same. A little greek is a dangerous thing as someone said.

 

[miknik5]

6 As for these things which ye behold

Ok, I defy anyone, whether they be from the School of literalism, or another academy, to deny that Jesus is talking about that there Temple, AD33.

You would be able to challenge someone and convince them you are right only if HIS DISCIPLES hadn't asked HIM to tell them when these things would be.

But they did
And HIS explanation proved that HE was looking ahead to the final end and not to the present temple

tell me, who was at that present moment, trying to convince others that they were the Christ?

 

[KJV1611]

Look:

It is the same formula repeated by Peter that Jesus uses.

First the end of the Old Covenant, THEN the Coming of Christ.


The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, -- = end of old covenant Israel


before that great and notable day of the Lord come: == Second Coming Of Christ

it is so simple, why the confusion?

The only uncertainty is the gap, duration, between the two events, which of course is an UNKNOWN, except Peter said well actually it might be rather a long time.

Of course, close inspection of Daniel and revelation will tell us this, but otherwise it is just a gap, indeterminate.

I finally see your point I think lol. Are you saying that '"the day of the Lord" and "the great and notable day of the Lord" are not the same because one has "great and notable" in front of it?

 

[KJV1611]

There is no gap in Daniel's 70 weeks.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Dan 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, ALL these things shall be finished.

The "power of the holy people" i.e. Old Covenant/Jerusalem was completely shattered in the war of 66-70 AD when "thy holy city" was destroyed.

"scatter" is a poor translation of the Hebrew word "naphats"

Strongs

H5310 naphats naw-fats'

a primitive root;

to dash to pieces, or scatter:--be beaten in sunder, break (in pieces),
broken, dash (in pieces), cause to be discharged, dispersed, be overspread,
scatter.

Is there any doubt that their power was gone after 70 AD?

That clump of dirt in the middle east no longer houses the "holy city"...

Their power was scattered when they were scattered to the 4 winds.

Jeremiah 49:36 KJV
And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.

 

[miknik5]

Yes, you are.

These days was a 7 year period between AD67-73 called the Wrath.

Last days are the time between Jesus first and second Coming

Just want to make sure as you and Locutus discuss "these last days" that you both understand that CHRIST has two ministries to fulfill

and HE isn't switching between the two:
one has to be finished first before the other begins

 

[miknik5]

Their power was scattered when they were scattered to the 4 winds.

Jeremiah 49:36 KJV
And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.

At this point you might want to look into the four angels holding back the four corners of the earth


They're not Matthew, Mark, Luke and John

 

[KJV1611]

[quote] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: [20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: [21] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The problem with your theory is that, though Peter quoted Joel regarding the reason for their speaking in languages, that part of the scripture listed above has yet to be fulfilled. He was just quoting, but there is no record of the above having taken place.

In addition, the above scripture is referring to the 6th seal, which means that prior to that, at the 4th seal, a fourth of the earths population would have had to have been killed. Also, if the 6th seal had taken place during Peter's time, then the world would have most surely experienced the trumpet and bowl judgments, which also have not take place.

All of these events of wrath are yet future, including Peter's quoting of the last part of Joel, which is the 6th seal. Your interpretation stems from not understanding the severity of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that they are to take place in conjunction with Christ's literal return to the earth to end the age and the establishing of His literal kingdom on this earth.[/QUOTE]
Peter said this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel ... I have to believe him.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Peter said this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel ... I have to believe him.

The reasons given in my previous post stand. For there has been no literal fulfillment of the 6th seal which is what Peter is quoting from Joel. Neither have any of the trumpets or bowl judgments which follow the 6th seal.

 

[KJV1611]

The reasons given in my previous post stand. For there has been no literal fulfillment of the 6th seal which is what Peter is quoting from Joel. Neither have any of the trumpets or bowl judgments which follow the 6th seal.

You're looking for the literal sun to go dark and the literal moon to turn to blood. Of course you don't think all the things mentioned by Peter have been fulfilled.

 

[Locutus]

The KJV version has translated the end of the age as end of the world - any Greek scholar worth his salt knows this. There is a very large possibility that the KJV translators were showing a futuristic bias in doing so.

Mat 24:3 KJV And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (Greek aion)?

Mat 24:3 (New KJV) Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Mat 24:3 (NASB) As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Mat 24:3 (NIV)As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

You can't find an "end of the world" in the Greek new testament.

So y'all out of luck with that verse...

 

[KJV1611]

The KJV version has translated the end of the age as end of the world - any Greek scholar worth his salt knows this. There is a very large possibility that the KJV translators were showing a futuristic bias in doing so.

Mat 24:3 KJV And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (Greek aion)?

Mat 24:3 (New KJV) Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Mat 24:3 (NASB) As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Mat 24:3 (NIV)As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

You can't find an "end of the world" in the Greek new testament.

So y'all out of luck with that verse...

What does the end of the age mean? What age?

 

[Willie-T]

What does the end of the age mean? What age?

The age of the Jewish Sacrificial System.

 

[Ahwatukee]

What does the end of the age mean? What age?

The end of the age refers to the end human government and the establishment of the Lord's literal millennial kingdom.

Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

In scripture above, the statue represents all human government, with the ten-toed kingdom of partly iron and partly baked clay being the last kingdom under the rule of the beast/antichrist.

The Rock (Jesus Christ) falls on the feet of the statue smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor and the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace, which is figurative for the end of human government. The Rock then becomes a huge mountain (kingdom) and fills the whole earth, which is representing Christ's literal thousand year kingdom on this earth.

 

[KJV1611]

The age of the Jewish Sacrificial System.

How do we know it's not the end of the age of time?

 

[KJV1611]

The end of the age refers to the end human government and the establishment of the Lord's literal millennial kingdom.

Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

In scripture above, the statue represents all human government, with the ten-toed kingdom of partly iron and partly baked clay being the last kingdom under the beast/antichrist.

The Rock (Jesus Christ) falls on the feet of the statue smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor and the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace, which is figurative for the end of human government. The Rock then becomes a huge mountain (kingdom) and fills the whole earth, which is representing Christ's literal thousand year kingdom on this earth.

I see your point but I also see it could possibly be the end of the age of sacrifices too.

 

[Willie-T]

How do we know it's not the end of the age of time?

Or maybe it meant the end of the age of 17 cows, three chickens and a hog. We can play games (and we sure DO), making it out to be just about anything we want it to be.

How are "ages" spoken of in the rest of the Bible?

 

[KJV1611]

Or maybe it meant the end of the age of 17 cows, three chickens and a hog. We can play games (and we sure DO), making it out to be just about anything we want it to be.

How are "ages" spoken of in the rest of the Bible?

An age is just a long indefinite period of time, it can be just about whatever the reader wants it to be.

 

[Willie-T]

I can put you onto a free book in which the author addresses "age" and much more.

In fact, he warns people NOT to read the chapter on "the end of the age."

Jesus declared that the Temple and its buildings would be destroyed, and the disciples, no doubt enthralled, asked Him to tell them "when will this happen?" Jesus replied with eight signs of the coming destruction:

1. False messiahs and false prophets (see Matt. 14:4- 5,11,23-26)
2. Wars and rumors of wars, nation rising against nation (see Matt. 24:6-7)
3. Famines (see Matt. 24:7)
4. Earthquakes (see Matt. 24:7)
5. Persecution of believers (see Matt. 24:9)
6. Falling away from the faith (see Matt. 24:10)
7. Love growing cold (see Matt. 24:12)
8. Gospel preached in the whole world (see Matt. 24:14)

We will examine each of these signs in depth in this chapter. In order to do that, I will share with you George Peter Holford's booklet, The Destruction of Jerusalem. His work is drawn mostly from the earlier works of Josephus. I will supplement Holford's writing with my own notes, set apart as: [Author's notes:]
Last chance to skip this chapter....

 

[miknik5]

I don't understand how that explains why that makes the tribulation in Matthew future. Israel is done, the sun became dark, the moon stopped reflecting light and the stars fell.

Can you tell me when these things happened?

Can you tell me when hail and fire mixed with blood came down upon the earth
Can you tell me when a third of the waters turned to blood and a third of the animals in the seas died?
Can you tell me when the fresh waters were turned to bitterness and a third of men died?
Can you tell me when the moon and the sun and the stars were struck so that a third of the day turned to darkness?


When did HE shake both the heavens and the earth to signify what is perishable and can be removed?

I could but you wont recieve it.

Here is what you said to me with regards to the moon and the stars and the sun

you implied that these things had already happened