The Rapture

[VCO]

The bible doesn't say anything about an antichrist riding a horse, nor that a bow without arrows symbolizes peace. But the bible does sayJesus rode in to Jerusalem on a white horse carrying a battle bow going to conquer our enemies... I don't understand you lol. It's like you crave war and destruction on everybody so you can look down from heaven and laugh at them.

Why do you pervert the scripture so? You do realize your making this stuff up don't you?

You have got to be kidding me. I have NEVER met anyone who actually thought Jesus Christ was one of the FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE. This verse is Clearly a reference to the time when it is after the Holy Spirit has been taken out of the way, and the greatest Con-Artist of all times (The Antichrist) cons most of the world into letting him take over, including and especially ISRAEL. For those Countries that REFUSE, it will mean WWIII, and that is what the Rider of the Red Horse is all about.

CLEARLY This Rider in Rev. 6:2 is not JESUS CHRIST, because the Crown he wears is NOT a KING'S CROWN, it is a winning athlete's laurel wreath crown, called a "stephanos" in the GREEK. When JESUS COMES ON THE WHITE HORSE (Rev. 19:11-12), HIS CROWNS ARE THOSE CALLED "diadēma" in the GREEK. Those are the diadem type of crowns worn by a KING; usually made out of gold with mounted jewels.

HERE IS THE STEPHANOS TYPE OF CROWN:

As you can see, sometimes it REALLY HELPS to look at the original GREEK WORDS.

Revelation 6:2 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I looked, and there was a white horse. The horseman on it had a bow; a crown {stephanos} was given to him, and he went out as a victor to conquer.

Revelation 19:11-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse. Its rider is called Faithful and True, and He judges and makes war in righteousness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] His eyes were like a fiery flame, and many crowns {diadēma} were on His head. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself.

6:2 white horse. The animal represents an unparalleled time of world peace—a false peace that is to be short-lived (see note on v. 4). This peace will be ushered in by a series of false messiahs, culminating with the Antichrist (Matt. 24:3-5).
He who sat on it. The four horses and their riders do not represent specific individuals, but forces. Some, however, identify this rider with Antichrist. Although he will be the leading figure, John’s point is that the entire world will follow him, being obsessed with pursuing this false peace.
bow. The bow is a symbol of war, but the absence of arrows implies that this victory is a bloodless one—a peace won by covenant and agreement, not by war (cf. Dan. 9:24-27).
crown. This word refers to the kind of laurel wreath awarded winning athletes. It “was given to him.” Antichrist becomes king, elected by the world’s inhabitants regardless of the cost, and will conquer the entire earth in a bloodless coup.


The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

6:4 Another horse, fiery red. Its blood-red appearance speaks of the holocaust of war (cf. Matt. 24:7). God will grant this horse and its rider the power to create worldwide war. But as horrible as this judgment is, it will be only the “birth pangs,” the beginning pains of God’s wrath (Matt. 24:8; Mark 13:7, 8; Luke 21:9).
people should kill one another. Violent slaughter will become commonplace.
sword. Not the long, broad sword, but the shorter, more easily maneuvered one that assassins often used and that soldiers carried into battle. It depicts assassination, revolt, massacre, and wholesale slaughter (cf. Dan. 8:24).

6:5 black horse. Black signifies famine (cf. Lam. 5:8-10). Worldwide war will destroy the food supply which spawns global hunger. pair of scales. The common measuring device—two small trays hung from each end of a balance beam—indicates that the scarcity of food will lead to rationing and food lines.

6:6 quart of wheat. The approximate amount necessary to sustain one person for one day.
denarius. One day’s normal wage. One day’s work will provide enough food for only one person.
three quarts of barley. Usually fed to animals, this grain was low in nutrients and cheaper than wheat. A day’s wage provides enough for only a small family’s daily supply.
oil and the wine. Although the point could be that these foods will not be affected by the famine, a more straightforward meaning is that bare staples—oil was used in the preparation of bread, and wine was considered necessary for cooking and purifying water—suddenly will become luxuries that have to be carefully protected. 6:8 pale horse. The Greek word from which the English word chlorophyll comes describes the pale, ashen-green, pallor characteristic of the decomposition of a corpse. God grants this horseman the authority to bring death to twenty-five percent of the world’s population.
Hades. See note on Luke 16:23. The place of the dead, which is identified as a common and fitting partner for death (20:13; see note on 1:18).


The MacArthur Bible Commentary.The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

6:1-2. As John watched the events after the opening of the first... seal by the Lamb, he saw a white horse with a rider holding a bow, wearing a victor's crown (stephanos), and going forth to conquer. Because Christ in His second coming is pictured (19:11) as riding on a white horse, some have taken it that this rider in 6:2 also must refer to Christ, as the white horse is a symbol of victory. Roman generals after a victory in battle would ride a white horse in triumph with their captives following. The chronology, however, is wrong, as Christ returns to the earth as a conqueror not at the beginning of the Tribulation but at the end of the Tribulation. Also the riders on the other horses obviously relate to destruction and judgment which precede the second coming of Christ by some period of time.
A better interpretation is that the conqueror mentioned here is the future world ruler, sometimes referred to as Antichrist though Revelation does not use this term. He is probably the same person as the ruler of the people mentioned in Daniel 9:26. This ruler has a bow without an arrow, indicating that the world government which he establishes is accomplished without warfare (see comments on Rev. 13:4). The future world government begins with a time of peace but is soon followed by destruction (1 Thes. 5:3). In general, the seals, trumpets, and bowls of divine wrath signal the terrible judgments of God on the world at the end of the Age, climaxing in the second coming of Christ.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

6:1, 2 When the Lamb opened the first seal, one of the four living creatures cried out "Come and see." In response, a rider, possibly the Antichrist, carrying a bow, came forth on a white horse... conquering and bent on con quest. This may represent what is known today as cold war. The bow poses the threat of war, but there is no mention of an arrow. Perhaps there is even the suggestion of missile warfare since the bow is a weapon of distant combat. This rider does not actually cause warfare; it is not until the second seal that peace is taken from the earth.

Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.

 

[KJV1611]

Unfortunately, the Bible gives very few details of the first earth age, just as it gives very few details on the age we are in. Can you refresh my memory on Abel? To what passage do you refer?

Matthew 23:35 KJV
That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

It acutally gives a lot more details than you might expect, but you have to think SPIRITUALLY. The gospel is hidden in all the old testament stories.... See what I mean spiritually? The gospel isn't mentioned out right at all, so you could say literally there is no gospel message in the old testament. But the gospel is found all over it in SPIRIT i. e. blood shed and nakedness covered... not written but it exists in spirit.

 

[Ahwatukee]

When they ate of the "tree," did they die on that day? No, they lived another 900+ years, right? So what died? What if it was a spiritual death that happened on that day of the original sin? At the Cross, would not that spiritual death be restored?

They both and we died spiritually and physically because of sin. Just because they didn't die right away does not negate the curse. God said that they would surely die and they did, just not right away. Jesus has restored us to life. "Those who believe in Me, though they die, yet they shall live."

 

[Ahwatukee]

Good day VCO,

Well, you have to remember who you're corresponding with. This is a person who believes that he was saved by reading the NIV, but didn't inherit the kingdom of God until he acknowledged that the KJV was the authorized version of scripture. So ..........

 

[Dan_473]

Well, Jesus said the truth will set us free, so we must believe that correct understanding of the end-times is important, yes.

Is one view more freeing than the others?

 

[KJV1611]

Good day VCO,

Well, you have to remember who you're corresponding with. This is a person who believes that he was saved by reading the NIV, but didn't inherit the kingdom of God until he acknowledged that the KJV was the authorized version of scripture. So ..........

You and VCO are carnally minded... everything in you guys views has to do with earthly things... flesh Israel, earthly Jerusalem etc. you guys can't see the spiritual things so you think I'm wacko because I can.

 

[VCO]

Maybe the reigning with Christ during the first resurrection is not over people but over angels and heavenly host. it does say we'll judge angels in Scripture. Bottomline, pre trib rapture must be ruled out completely.

That is NOT what the Scriptures say:


The 144,000 Mortal Jews will be saved in their MORTAL BODIES, because when Christ Rules the World from Davids THRONE, they will be the Mortals that REPOPULATE ISRAEL, so that GOD's EVERLASTING COVENANT with the descendants of ISRAEL, which specifically states that their descendants will inherit land of Caannan forever; can continue. GOD KEEPS HIS PROMISES.

Here is the MAJOR PROOF, that the 1000 Year Kingdom is reigning over MORTALS on this Earth:

Luke 1:32-33 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
[SUP]33 [/SUP] and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."

Isaiah 65:19-22 (GWT)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] I will rejoice about Jerusalem and be glad about my people. Screaming and crying will no longer be heard in the city.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] There will no longer be an infant who lives for only a few days or an old man who doesn't live a long life. Whoever lives to be a hundred years old will be thought of as young. Whoever dies before he is a hundred years old will be cursed as a sinner.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] They will build houses and live there. They will plant vineyards and eat fruit from them.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] They will not build homes and have others live there. They will not plant and have others eat from it. My people will live as long as trees, and my chosen ones will enjoy what they've done.


Zechariah 14:16-19 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

 

[Dan_473]

so

(not saying the debate is not important)

sounds like
the practical
day to day
difference is whether or not to be
a prepper.

 

[PlainWord]

Matthew 23:35 KJV
That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

It acutally gives a lot more details than you might expect, but you have to think SPIRITUALLY. The gospel is hidden in all the old testament stories.... See what I mean spiritually? The gospel isn't mentioned out right at all, so you could say literally there is no gospel message in the old testament. But the gospel is found all over it in SPIRIT i. e. blood shed and nakedness covered... not written but it exists in spirit.

You said:

God SHED the BLOOD and clothed Adam and Eve with HIS righteous sacrifice when they were naked. Do you not believe that Adam and Eve were saved by grace like RIGHTEOUS Able was saved by grace? If so then why would God abandon them if they were saved by grace?

I fully expect to see Abel in heaven. Perhaps we are saying essentially the same thing but maybe not. Are you suggesting the righteous in the first earth age went straight to heaven? I agree the message of the Gospel appears all over the OT. I also see the spiritual side of it all over the Bible.

However, Mat 23 has a slightly different meaning to me. Jesus seems to be laying the blame for the deaths of all those righteous men listed at the feet of those wicked leaders He was about to destroy in their generation. Jesus seems to imply that there are two Israels, the saved and the condemned, just as Paul teaches all over like Rom 11 and Gal 4. He was speaking to those who would be putting Him to death in the very near future and they didn't realize that He just condemned them to Hell.

 

[PlainWord]

They both and we died spiritually and physically because of sin. Just because they didn't die right away does not negate the curse. God said that they would surely die and they did, just not right away. Jesus has restored us to life. "Those who believe in Me, though they die, yet they shall live." [/SIZE]

God said, "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Since Adam didn't die on the day he ate of it, either you spiritualize the day into 1,000 years like KJV does, or you spiritualize the death, as I do. The passage does not say that Adam will suffer both deaths as you suggest nor does He say one death today and another 960 years from now.

The death isn't the curse. The curse is additional punishment, the hard work, the Land, the labor, etc. The real consequence of the fall was death (spiritual separation from God). It is this consequence that Christ redeems us from.

 

[Bogadile]

There is the physical world where we now reside where death occurs to us all. There is heaven, which is in the spiritual realm, where we will all one day reside. I think you are confusing the two.

The "death" that gets swallowed up in victory is the death I was just discussing with KJV, the spiritual death. KJV rightly states that the soul and spirit do not die as in end. However, the spirit can be forever removed from God and that is what's known as "spiritual death." Christ restored this separation that Adam caused.

Consider the words of the wisest man in history. How do you reconcile Solomon's words with your position?

One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.

Or the words of his father, David?

And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.

You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved forever.

The truth is, we don't know how many more earth ages there will be when this one ends (which I think is coming soon). We have to reign over someone. Those who are last into heaven would have nobody to reign over if the earth actually and completely ends.

The earth remaining does not prove sin and death remains, earth was cleansed by water and will be by fire again in the future. Thanks for the reply but I will never go this far into spiritualizing where even death itself is merely spiritual.
Jesus conquered physical death, had a physical resurrection, and the earth will physically be great again. (Isaiah 11:6-9)

You are a smart guy I hope you reconsider this, do not go full gnostic where nothing is physical. Jesus says meek shall inherit the earth. Btw part of the curse was physical pain and labour

Can you tell me how this earth age ends?

 

[KJV1611]

You said:



I fully expect to see Abel in heaven. Perhaps we are saying essentially the same thing but maybe not. Are you suggesting the righteous in the first earth age went straight to heaven? I agree the message of the Gospel appears all over the OT. I also see the spiritual side of it all over the Bible.

No I don't think they went to heaven until they acended with Jesus.

However, Mat 23 has a slightly different meaning to me. Jesus seems to be laying the blame for the deaths of all those righteous men listed at the feet of those wicked leaders He was about to destroy in their generation. Jesus seems to imply that there are two Israels, the saved and the condemned, just as Paul teaches all over like Rom 11 and Gal 4. He was speaking to those who would be putting Him to death in the very near future and they didn't realize that He just condemned them to Hell.

I think the wicked leaders are ONE of the heads of the beast, in fact I think they were the beast with a deadly wound.

The beast is first seen in Cain.... he even had the mark lol. Cain slew Able because Cain was carnal and Abel was spritual. It's the same routine over and over throughout history.

 

[RedeemedGift]

You and VCO are carnally minded... everything in you guys views has to do with earthly things... flesh Israel, earthly Jerusalem etc. you guys can't see the spiritual things so you think I'm wacko because I can.

The gnostics were notorious for spiritualising many physical concepts that the Bible taught.. including the physical manifestation of Christ in the flesh. Not to mention they loathed the Old Testament and its prophecies concerning promises God made to Israel.

Watch how you interpret scripture, to see whether your interpretations are consistent or highly contradictory and selective.

 

[KJV1611]

God said, "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Since Adam didn't die on the day he ate of it, either you spiritualize the day into 1,000 years like KJV does, or you spiritualize the death, as I do. The passage does not say that Adam will suffer both deaths as you suggest nor does He say one death today and another 960 years from now.

The death isn't the curse. The curse is additional punishment, the hard work, the Land, the labor, etc. The real consequence of the fall was death (spiritual separation from God). It is this consequence that Christ redeems us from.

We can't just spiritualize things, it's either literal or it's spiritual.. that's what "rightly dividing the word of truth" is.

 

[KJV1611]

The gnostics were notorious for spiritualising many physical concepts that the Bible taught.. including the physical manifestation of Christ in the flesh. Not to mention they loathed the Old Testament and its prophecies concerning promises God made to Israel.

Watch how you interpret scripture, to see whether your interpretations are consistent or highly contradictory and selective.

I'm not a gnostic, I'm a Christian.

 

[tourist]

Nobody spiritually died in the garden of Eden PW, they died physical deaths in the 1000 year day that they ate of the fruit.

A day in the Lord is a 1000 years and a 1000 years a day. I agree with you.

 

[Bogadile]

I have been studying this out today what was said earlier about Christ returning in Rev 19 with the Church on horses with whitelinen on (so they have resurrected bodies it appears), yet the 'first' resurrection is not until Revelation 20:4 .

This is literally impossible to reconcile with the rapture being the same event as the Second Coming.
Anybody want to try debunk this because I sure can not.

So now I am confident the rapture will take place prior to the second coming, I can not see any way around it, in the premillennial scheme of things the rapture has to take place prior to the second coming as well, or there will be no mortals left to populate the millennium.

I will go sleep now its 3:50AM got to wake up soon, God bless everyone good night.

 

[RedeemedGift]

I'm not a gnostic, I'm a Christian.

Your methods of interpreting are inconsistent like that of a gonstic is what I am saying.

 

[Burninglight]

This verse is Clearly a reference to the time when it is after the Holy Spirit has been taken out of the way, and the greatest Con-Artist of all times (The Antichrist) cons most of the world into letting him take over, including and especially ISRAEL. For those Countries that REFUSE, it will mean WWIII, and that is what the Rider of the Red Horse is all about.

What verse is about taking the Holy Spirit (God) out of the way? LOL, someone told you that. You didn't get it from Scripture. There is no such thing. Common sense should tell you. No one can take God out of the way!!! Read the last chapter of Daniel to know who will be taken out of the way. I agree with you, however, about the rider of the red horse not being Jesus.

 

[KJV1611]

Your methods of interpreting are inconsistent like that of a gonstic is what I am saying.

I thought you might be thinking that I was a gnostic lol. Can you give me an example where my interpretation was inconsistent? I really and truly try not to interpret, just rightly divide, so I'm concerned by what you have said.