The Rapture
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But the judgment still needed to happen.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” [SUP]18 [/SUP]And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the great city was divided into three parts...
You know, Jerusalem was divided up into 3 parts, each held by one of the three shepherds. Now there is no way for them to keep the Law without a temple.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” [SUP]18 [/SUP]And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the great city was divided into three parts...
You know, Jerusalem was divided up into 3 parts, each held by one of the three shepherds. Now there is no way for them to keep the Law without a temple.
Rigtheous Enoch was raptured pre-trib.
Righteous Noah was preserved through the trib.
Unrepentant sinners were destroyed IN the trib.
Church raptured before the Great trib.
Converted saved preserved THROUGH the trib.
Unrepentant sinners destroyed in the trib.
As in the days of Noah... See the correlation?
No? No worries. We could all be wrong! Praise God Jesus is the Christ, and we accepted Him!
Righteous Noah was preserved through the trib.
Unrepentant sinners were destroyed IN the trib.
Church raptured before the Great trib.
Converted saved preserved THROUGH the trib.
Unrepentant sinners destroyed in the trib.
As in the days of Noah... See the correlation?
No? No worries. We could all be wrong! Praise God Jesus is the Christ, and we accepted Him!
@KJV
Two different generations can sit side by side
Between AD30-70 the unbelieving generation remained under the Law, the believing in that generation come out from under the Law.
The same thing happened in the wilderness for 40 years. Men over 20 were condemned to not enter the Promised Land, until they had all died. (except Joshua and Caleb )
Men under 20, and those born during that 40 years co-existed with the unbelieving generation and entered the Promised Land when the unbelieving generation was finished off.
This is a figure for the Kingdom. Though 'near' it was only properly entered when the old was destroyed.
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Two different generations can sit side by side
Between AD30-70 the unbelieving generation remained under the Law, the believing in that generation come out from under the Law.
The same thing happened in the wilderness for 40 years. Men over 20 were condemned to not enter the Promised Land, until they had all died. (except Joshua and Caleb )
Men under 20, and those born during that 40 years co-existed with the unbelieving generation and entered the Promised Land when the unbelieving generation was finished off.
This is a figure for the Kingdom. Though 'near' it was only properly entered when the old was destroyed.
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
LOL. Do you see the spirit and soul depart from a dying person today? Even so, there is evidence in historical writings.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 appears to be describing the resurrection of the dead out of Sheol at the last trumpet. Those who are asleep in v. 51 are those in Sheol that are raised to new life in heaven. These verses suggest that during and after the resurrection at the last trumpet, many people will no longer be imprisoned in death or the sleepy realm of Sheol before resurrecting from the dead. These people will be “changed” meaning that they will be given their resurrection bodies immediately after death presumably without being trapped in Sheol first. In light of this understanding, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 seems to echo this point. The reason why the “the dead in Christ will rise first” is because those “who are left until the coming of the Lord” must wait until death before they “meet the Lord in the air.” The Greek word for air in this verse is interchangeable with sky or heaven, the afterlife realm of the blessed (Ephesians 2:2, 2:6; 6:12; Revelation 12:7-9). In many languages, like English, heaven has two meanings: the firmament and the afterlife realm of the blessed.
Paul goes on to clarify in his second letter to the Corinthians.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. - The RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS!!
This is the change he was discussing for the living in his first letter to them. I'm sorry "Christian orthodoxy" in our day has this so wrong compared to the earliest church leaders who understood it.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 appears to be describing the resurrection of the dead out of Sheol at the last trumpet. Those who are asleep in v. 51 are those in Sheol that are raised to new life in heaven. These verses suggest that during and after the resurrection at the last trumpet, many people will no longer be imprisoned in death or the sleepy realm of Sheol before resurrecting from the dead. These people will be “changed” meaning that they will be given their resurrection bodies immediately after death presumably without being trapped in Sheol first. In light of this understanding, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 seems to echo this point. The reason why the “the dead in Christ will rise first” is because those “who are left until the coming of the Lord” must wait until death before they “meet the Lord in the air.” The Greek word for air in this verse is interchangeable with sky or heaven, the afterlife realm of the blessed (Ephesians 2:2, 2:6; 6:12; Revelation 12:7-9). In many languages, like English, heaven has two meanings: the firmament and the afterlife realm of the blessed.
Paul goes on to clarify in his second letter to the Corinthians.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. - The RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS!!
This is the change he was discussing for the living in his first letter to them. I'm sorry "Christian orthodoxy" in our day has this so wrong compared to the earliest church leaders who understood it.
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Hello Burninglight,
To answer your question, because the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is how God is going to carry out his wrath, with the opening of the first seal initiating said wrath. And because believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, we therefore must be gathered prior to the fist seal being opened.
Very true. But you have to remember that God needed Noah to remain on the earth to repopulate it. The will be gathered, because the coming wrath will culminated with Christ returning to the earth to end the age and the church will be with him.
There will be nowhere to hide on the earth. If the church was here, they would not be able to buy and sell without the mark, which means that they could not buy food, gas, pay bills or credit and debit their bank accounts in any way. Without the mark, they would not even be able to have bank accounts. In addition, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect all of the inhabitants of the earth. No one will be able to hide from them.
But besides all of this, Jesus already experienced God's wrath that we deserve, satisfying it. And therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in His Son.
To answer your question, because the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is how God is going to carry out his wrath, with the opening of the first seal initiating said wrath. And because believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, we therefore must be gathered prior to the fist seal being opened.
Very true. But you have to remember that God needed Noah to remain on the earth to repopulate it. The will be gathered, because the coming wrath will culminated with Christ returning to the earth to end the age and the church will be with him.
There will be nowhere to hide on the earth. If the church was here, they would not be able to buy and sell without the mark, which means that they could not buy food, gas, pay bills or credit and debit their bank accounts in any way. Without the mark, they would not even be able to have bank accounts. In addition, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect all of the inhabitants of the earth. No one will be able to hide from them.
But besides all of this, Jesus already experienced God's wrath that we deserve, satisfying it. And therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in His Son.
The redemptive work was finished when Jesus said it. The judgment was done with the pouring of the 7th bowl in 70 AD. This is why I place the end of the second earth age at 70 AD instead of 40 years earlier; for this reason and the many other passages such as Mat 24:3, which tie the end of Israel to the end of the age(s).
I am pre-trib, and here is my another. The White Horse is the COMMANDER'S Horse when HE is setting out to Make War on the Enemies, and Conquer the Land. That is not coming as a BRIDEGROOM. In a Jewish Wedding, the Groom's Wedding Party walked, and I know of NO mention of a HORSE in a Jewish Wedding. In Israel, Traditions and Customs surrounding the Wedding procedures, were followed very Strickly, at the time of Christ. Those Traditions and Customs are 3500 years old. Orthodox Jews follow them to the letter.
There is no mystery to this. The fulfilment was the destruction of Jerusalem, and the exacting of the penalty of the Law. No need to bash Revelation up - (Revelation was written post the destruction).
Luke 21: 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Everything that Jesus said needed to be fulfilled in the Law was fulfilled in AD67-73, the Daniel 'days', i.e. years, of vengeance.
Luke 21: 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Everything that Jesus said needed to be fulfilled in the Law was fulfilled in AD67-73, the Daniel 'days', i.e. years, of vengeance.
I'll show you the principal, for interpretation is based on cross-referencing and comparing scripture:
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"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
=================================================
So, we have scripture stating that "Jesus rescues believers from the coming wrath, that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and we have Jesus' promise that he will keep believers "out of" the hour of trail, which is another designation for the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.
That said, since we cannot go through God's wrath and the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are how God's wrath is going to be carried out, then we cannot be on the earth when those judgments are taking place and must be gathered prior to the opening of the first seal.
Another example would be found in Rev.19:6-8 where the church/bride is seen in heaven during the time of God's wrath, receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, we she the armies of heaven wearing that same fine linen, white and clean and following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses.
Since scripture shows that the church/bride is already in heaven and follows the Lord out of heaven to end the age, then the church cannot be gathered after Christ returns, because the church is already with him.
Another truth that is relative to your question is as follows:
Revelation 1 thru 3 = Ekklesia/Church, but no Hagios/Saints
Revelation 4 onward = Hagios/Saints, but no Ekklesia/Church
The church is never mentioned anywhere during the narrative of God's wrath. Only those great tribulation saints are referred to who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who believe in Christ after the church as been gathered and during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign.
==================================================
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
=================================================
So, we have scripture stating that "Jesus rescues believers from the coming wrath, that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and we have Jesus' promise that he will keep believers "out of" the hour of trail, which is another designation for the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.
That said, since we cannot go through God's wrath and the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are how God's wrath is going to be carried out, then we cannot be on the earth when those judgments are taking place and must be gathered prior to the opening of the first seal.
Another example would be found in Rev.19:6-8 where the church/bride is seen in heaven during the time of God's wrath, receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, we she the armies of heaven wearing that same fine linen, white and clean and following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses.
Since scripture shows that the church/bride is already in heaven and follows the Lord out of heaven to end the age, then the church cannot be gathered after Christ returns, because the church is already with him.
Another truth that is relative to your question is as follows:
Revelation 1 thru 3 = Ekklesia/Church, but no Hagios/Saints
Revelation 4 onward = Hagios/Saints, but no Ekklesia/Church
The church is never mentioned anywhere during the narrative of God's wrath. Only those great tribulation saints are referred to who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who believe in Christ after the church as been gathered and during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign.
J7, Jesus promises are to the entire church. In John 14:1-3, He said that he was going to the Father's house to prepare dwelling places for us and that he would return and receive us unto himself and take us (the entire church) back to the Father's house. According to your interpretation, only the church from the time Jesus was crucified until 37 years later when the temple was destroyed would be included in his promise. This would in fact leave out the majority of the church from the second century until this present time.
Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail over it." Well, the building of the church is still in process. Once it has been completed, then the Lord will descend from heaven and gather the entire church from beginning to end. Your version just as 37 years of the church benefiting from the promise.
The days of vengeance is referring to the day of the Lord, the wrath of God which will take place in conjunction with the return of the Lord to end of the age.
Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail over it." Well, the building of the church is still in process. Once it has been completed, then the Lord will descend from heaven and gather the entire church from beginning to end. Your version just as 37 years of the church benefiting from the promise.
The days of vengeance is referring to the day of the Lord, the wrath of God which will take place in conjunction with the return of the Lord to end of the age.
Now, that reaks of being a Con-Game. When I was Stationed on Okinawa in the U.S. Air Force; we had a guy come around with an investment seminar, claiming he was representing a company that was Building a new South Seas Paradise Resort, on the New Hibredes Island. He was selling lots where the employees, and retirees could build their homes. He claimed those lots would triple in value once the Paradise Resort was up and running. Lots of G.I.'s bought a lot, but something did not feel right to me. Two years later, when the British Government turned over control of the Island to the new Islander Government, the first thing that new Government did was OUTLAW any foreign ownership of the Land on the New Hibredes. Somehow, I am convinced that guy selling all those lots, KNEW IT WAS COMING.
1. God wrath can happen after tribulation,
a, tribulation
b, rapture in a split second the saint go to. Heaven than back with Jesus
2 Thes 2
c. Wrath of God
or during wrath of God the saint being protected by God, like God protect Israel during 10 Egyptian curses.
for sure 2 thesalonians said both rapture and second coming happen after man of sin/ tribulation, not before
a, tribulation
b, rapture in a split second the saint go to. Heaven than back with Jesus
2 Thes 2
c. Wrath of God
or during wrath of God the saint being protected by God, like God protect Israel during 10 Egyptian curses.
for sure 2 thesalonians said both rapture and second coming happen after man of sin/ tribulation, not before
Israel is not the church and the church is not Israel! This is the false teaching of replacement theology that you are suggesting. God has specific promises to Israel and they will be fulfilled. The church, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile and unbelieving Israel have different programs. After the church has been gathered, then God will fulfill that last seven years of the seventy sets of seven years that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem.
I see, we just have a fundamental difference of interpretation here. I believe that those who are alive when 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 occurs will be given glorified bodies in a second, and do not have to wait to die to get it.
Another fundamental difference we have is that I get the idea you do not believe in a bodily resurrection but a spiritual one? Because you say that these resurrection bodies are invisible? But when Jesus was resurrected (bodily) the disciples saw Him and He even ate with them.
Another fundamental difference we have is that I get the idea you do not believe in a bodily resurrection but a spiritual one? Because you say that these resurrection bodies are invisible? But when Jesus was resurrected (bodily) the disciples saw Him and He even ate with them.