The Rapture

[Dan_473]

Maybe this will help.

Luke 22:36 (ASV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.


Here is the most common weapon for defense at the time Jesus spoke these words.

Here is the most common Weapon for Defense today.

I'll buy that!

But,
Wouldn't Jesus' instruction apply equally to all end times views?

 

[PlainWord]

PlainWord I appreciate you taking the time to share what you believe is truth. But I will never be able to meet you there. If what you are saying is the truth, I must say I have been tricked.

That's okay. It took me years to get here. Perhaps if you keep studying and learning you might get it some day.

 

[Jackson123]

You are NOT taking into account EVERYTHING HAS BEEN HAPPENING for the Last Three and a Half Years BEFORE that verse, The Largest WAR Ever, GOD's WRATH, Antichrist Beheading those who will not bow to him as GOD, boulder size Hail Stones, Mountain size Meteorites, ETC. This is NOT talking about the RESURRECTIONS, it is talking about the GATHERING of the SURVIVORS, who were mostly hiding in the deepest cave they could find.

Matthew 24:31 (HCSB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.





Now I must point out that this is one of the VERY FEW THINGS that I do not agree 100% with Dr. John MacArthur on. Dr. MacArthur says that GATHERING includes the resurrection of OT Saints. Mal. 3:6 says THE LORD GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.

THEREFORE, SALVATION BY FAITH includes Believing GOD would provide a MESSIAH as Abraham believed, whether you are an OT Saint, or a NT Saint. IT IS THE SAME FAITH that Saves, the FAITH OF ABRAHAM. IF NT genuine FAITH places YOU in MESSIAH Jesus Christ, then OT genuine Faith also places you in MESSIAH. THEREFORE, the dead in MESSIAH JESUS CHRIST, are both OT Saints, and NT Saints. Since it says the Ressurection of the Righteous happens EACH IN HIS OWN ORDER, OT Saints rise first at the Last Trump. If you want to say that verse 31 includes Martyred Tribulation Saints and the Survivors, I have no Problem with that; however, that Last Trump Gathering of the DEAD IN MESSIAH and those who are genuine, READY for the BRIDEGROOM, Living, BELIEVERS, happens Seven YEARS prior to the gather mentioned in verse 31.

Where do I get SURVIVORS FROM? Number ONE, 144,000 are MESSIAH JESUS CHRIST BELIEVING JEWS, many of which were Led to the LORD by the TWO WITNESSES, THEY are sealed in their mortal bodies, so that no harm comes to them, preserving a REMNANT OF ISRAEL for the Earthly KINGDOM of Jesus Christ. The OTHER survivors are the Converts of the Two Witnesses and the converts of the 144,000. Why are they scattered to the four winds? The CENTER OF THE WWIII is JERUSALEM. AND THEY WILL BE EXTREMELY ZEALOUS TO WITNESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE MESSIAH. By nature a born again JEW, is MUCH MORE ZEALOUS to witness than the average Christian.

Here is where it talks about the Survivors:

Zechariah 14:1-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You{144,0000} will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him. {That includes all of us that were resurrected earlier to go to the WEDDING OF THE LAMB.}


Zechariah 14:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Booths.

Hi VCO.
my point is that according to 2 thesalonians 2, both the rapture and second coming happen after tribulations
did God protect us from tribulation/ persecution? I do not know, base on act, God do not protect Stephen phycicaly, He was death of persecution. but spiritually yes God give him strength not to denied Him.

 

[PlainWord]

The place in the bible where that concept was first mentioned is not relevant as to whether or not that is what God meant when He told Adam and Eve that on the day they sin they would die. God's always been God and that is how He relates this concept to man. Seeing how neither made it to be over a 1000 years old that turned out to be a statement of truth. God spoke that way to give man some understanding about the concept of time in His eyes verses the eyes of man. I believe that understanding the 1000 year old day is critical in determining the length of creation as mentioned in Genesis and also for understanding the timeline for prophesy as mentioned in the prophetic books of the OT, certain books of the NT through Revelation. There is no spiritualizing going on at all.

Spoken with true carnal understanding.

 

[Dan_473]

Doesit really matter whether the ‘rapture’ (a misnomer) occurs before or after the'tribulation'? Jesus told His disciples that the time of tribulation would beas in the days of Noah (Matt. 24:35-39) Noah was not taken out of the worldduring it’s judgment, but provided the means by which to survive it. But thatwas dependent upon Noah being obedient and faithful to prepare for itas the Lord instructed. Suppose that, having been warned of the coming floodand told to build the ark, Noah decided that it wasn't important, ‘God willsave me from it’, and he didn't build the boat. Maybe God would haveenabled Noah to dog paddle for those 40-plus days. Or maybe ol’ Noah would havedrowned with the rest. Mankind was, after all, being judged for disbelief anddisobedience.

Jesus taught us to expect judgment and tribulation, and there's a multitude ofverses that back that up. Think about what will come: war, famine, disease,crippling pollution, lawlessness, mass earth upheavals, yada yada yada. If weexpect to have to survive it all we’ll need to be prepared. So how might Godhave us prepare for this? Suppose He wants us to stockpile food, water, andmedical supplies. That may not be so easy to get our cooperation with if wedon’t think we’re going to be around to need it. God told Noah to build a boat;maybe He’ll tell you to buy a bus. How we view the timing of the‘rapture’ will make a BIG difference in how willing we are respond to what Godwould have us do to physically prepare for the judgment He tells us we’regoing to see.

And more importantly – it will affect how we’ll respond to be spirituallyprepared. Jesus said that evil will increase, that we will be hated,persecuted, betrayed by friends and family, and hauled off to be killed. Itis little wonder that He also said many of us will turn away from Him.Duh. Like the seed planted amid the rocks, and when the heat’s on those who arenot prepared will not be strong enough to stand - much less fight back. Endtime prophecies show spiritual persecution and warfare on levels unseen sinceOld Testament times. Those who aren't trained and versed in such things aregoing to get slaughtered, or worse, turn away.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Paul talks about the coming of the Lord and ourgathering to Him, and he says that day will not come until after theapostasy (which is the mass turning away from and rejection of God)and the ‘antichrist’ is revealed. Everyone knows about the ‘antichrist’, but fewknow about the apostasy. Paul put them on an equal footing.

Jesus says it’s going to happen, that we will see it happen, and that we needto be prepared for it or we will fail Him!!!

Sorry. It’s just really important that we all understand theimportance of this issue.

Because satan will tell any lie he can to keep us unprepared.

sounds like
to stockpile food, water, and medical supplies is the practical difference.

possibly guns too.


******************

not trying to be contrary here

what advice do we give to
Christians in Haiti?

 

[J7]

Which view is the most freeing?

No view is freeing if it is from behind bars.

Most of the people here are in cages they have been placed in, and they do not even know it.

 

[VCO]

Where does Paul mention the resurrection?

Where does it say that the Thessalonians wrote to Paul? Can you produce documentary evidence of this fictive communication?



Is this the letter?

"Hey Paul,

Say Hi to Ringo and John.

You guys in the clouds?

Oh shucks. Guess we missed it.

Much love

CoT"

[h=2]First Epistle to the Thessalonians[/h] AUTHOR: The apostle Paul, 2697. DATE WRITTEN: Time and place are uncertain. It is generally thought that this was the earliest of Paul's epistles and was probably written from Corinth between a.d. 49 and 54. Paul had sent Timothy to encourage and strengthen the church. On his return, the report that he gave apparently inspired the apostle to write the epistle (1 Thessalonians 3:6).
Thompson Chain Reference Bible.

[h=2]4275, Second Epistle to the Thessalonians[/h] A Sequel to 1 Thessalonians.
AUTHOR: The apostle Paul, 2697. DATE WRITTEN: Probably written from Corinth shortly after the first epistle, between a.d. 50 and 54. PURPOSE: It is apparent that certain expressions in Paul's first epistle to this church had been misinterpreted. When he had referred to the uncertainty of the time of Christ's coming, his words had been understood as teaching that the day of the Lord had come (2 Thessalonians 2:2). This resulted in undue excitement. The converts were "shaken in [their] mind," (2 Thessalonians 2:2). They were entertaining wrong views as to the nearness of the Lord's advent which unsettled their lives. Paul's purpose was to correct this perspective.
Some have thought from the wording of verses 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 that the church had received a forged letter which had added fuel to the fire. This is purely conjectural. There is not much doubt that the epistle was responding to an excited state of the church.

Thompson Chain Reference Bible.


Acts 17:32-33 (RSV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked; but others said, "We will hear you again about this."
[SUP]33 [/SUP] So Paul went out from among them.

Acts 23:6 (RSV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But when Paul perceived that one part were Sad'ducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead I am on trial."

Acts 24:10-15 (RSV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And when the governor had motioned to him to speak, Paul replied: "Realizing that for many years you have been judge over this nation, I cheerfully make my defense.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] As you may ascertain, it is not more than twelve days since I went up to worship at Jerusalem;
[SUP]12 [/SUP] and they did not find me disputing with any one or stirring up a crowd, either in the temple or in the synagogues, or in the city.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Neither can they prove to you what they now bring up against me.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the law or written in the prophets,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] having a hope in God which these themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.
Romans 6:5 (RSV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.



1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (RSV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

Philippians 3:10-11 (ESV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

2 Timothy 2:16-18 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.

Hebrews 6:1-2 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (RSV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Bogadile]

Why did all the post-tribbers go offline when I asked my two questions, now the questions are drowning yet again, let me resurface them:

To all post-trib believers; I have two questions for you, how do you explain:

No.1 The Church is returning with Christ on horses wearing white linen @ Rev 19 BEFORE the "first resurrection" of Rev 20.

No.2 Who will populate the millennium if all the wicked are killed at Christ's coming and the saints are raptured?

 

[tourist]

Spoken with true carnal understanding.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[PlainWord]

No view is freeing if it is from behind bars.

Most of the people here are in cages they have been placed in, and they do not even know it.

They don't understand so much. They haven't learned that the wrath applied to Israel for her many crimes, not the least being killing God's Son. If anything will earn you divine punishment, that will.

Hey, I learned something interesting in Church yesterday. In the Greek and Hebrew, they don't have caps or exclamation marks. They instead repeat the word they wish to emphasize. When they repeat it twice they really mean to stress it. Such as, "...Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!” So when we see this, "“Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!” We know something bad is about to happen to Israel (the earth).

This last phrase struck me as I was reading Josephus and he records this:

"...they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!"

It's ironic that his name was also Jesus who also warned of the pending punishment to come.

 

[PlainWord]

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

There is nothing wrong with understanding the physical world. But to expand your thinking into the spiritual world will bless you far more. It's like going from black and white TV on a 19 inch to a 75 inch Samsung with 4HD, and surround sound.

 

[J7]

The Pharisees obviously thought he was speaking out of his ananus

 

[RickyZ]

sounds like
to stockpile food, water, and medical supplies is the practical difference.

possibly guns too.


******************

not trying to be contrary here

what advice do we give to
Christians in Haiti?

That's just the physical preparation. More important is the spiritual preparation. If Joe doesn't believe that God would put him thru the tribulation judgments, and then he finds himself stuck smack dab in the middle of it, there's a good chance that Joe will then question what else did he believe about God that is untrue? And with his faith broken by testing, he'll be one of the many who Jesus warned of who turn away.

As for stockpiling weapons with the food et al, my position is this: If someone is hungry, then let's multiply the loaves and fishes and feed them. But if someone tries to take the stockpile, the only part of it they're going to get is the pointy end of my 45.

 

[J7]

I'd give 'em the flat end, best not to waste bullets in a crisis

 

[tourist]

There is nothing wrong with understanding the physical world. But to expand your thinking into the spiritual world will bless you far more. It's like going from black and white TV on a 19 inch to a 75 inch Samsung with 4HD, and surround sound.

I'll take your advice and go for the home theater experience.

 

[J7]

Yeh man. Buy in that spiritual popcorn

 

[VCO]

Hi VCO.
my point is that according to 2 thesalonians 2, both the rapture and second coming happen after tribulations
did God protect us from tribulation/ persecution? I do not know, base on act, God do not protect Stephen phycicaly, He was death of persecution. but spiritually yes God give him strength not to denied Him.

I do not see how you come up with the Calling Out of the Bride of Christ happening AFTER the GREAT TRIBULATION.

1 Samuel 10:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] But you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, 'No, set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes and by your clans."

Romans 5:3-6 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
[SUP]4 [/SUP] and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

As you can see, there have ALWAYS been Tribulations; all the Wars are Tribulations, ISIS attacks are Tribulations, VERBAL ABUSES are Tribulations, Persecutions of any kind are Tribulations, etc.

BUT THE INFINITE GREAT TRIBULATION is when GOD is pouring out HIS JUSTIFIED FULL WRATH ON THE EARTH, will be FAR, FAR worse than all the TRIBULATIONS PRIOR to that combined.

HERE IS HIS PROMISE TO US:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (ESV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,


However, this LIFE has many Tribulations, the NEXT ONE WILL HAVE NONE.


Acts 14:21-22 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch,
[SUP]22 [/SUP] strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."

John 15:19-22 (NRSV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own. Because you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world—therefore the world hates you.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Remember the word that I said to you, 'Servants are not greater than their master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] But they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.


Look at these verses:

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.


The over-whelming MAJORITY of Pators will tell you that the HE there in verse 7, is the Holy Spirit Who indwells every True Believer. IF HE is being taken out of the way, so that Antichrist can come to FULL POWER trying to become the absolute RULER of the Whole World. THEN WE ARE GOING WHERE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS TAKEN TO, because JESUS CHRIST Promises the Holy Spirit would NEVER LEAVE US. I Believe that Place HE and US are going to be TAKEN TO is the Wedding of the LAMB in HEAVEN, in the Father's HOUSE.

 

[RickyZ]

Why did all the post-tribbers go offline when I asked my two questions, now the questions are drowning yet again, let me resurface them:

To all post-trib believers; I have two questions for you, how do you explain:

No.1 The Church is returning with Christ on horses wearing white linen @ Rev 19 BEFORE the "first resurrection" of Rev 20.

No.2 Who will populate the millennium if all the wicked are killed at Christ's coming and the saints are raptured?

It could be that those questions have already been answered (this thread IS 215 pages long already). I tend not to repeat things because if someone didn't get it the first ten times it's been presented, they're not going to get it with an 11th presentation.

 

[J7]

Have you just officially closed the thread Ricky?

 

[RickyZ]

But to Reader's Digest an answer,

I believe the 'rapture' is post judgement and pre wrath,

I don't believe Christ returns on a horse,

and as discussed many pages ago there are people who survive the judgment and wrath and live on into the millennium. These, along with the unfaithful saved, are the ones who are ruled over.