Not By Works
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Yeah, and the sound of silence when asked a question of your faith is liken a soldier that falls upon his own sword.
"... and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you..."
1 Peter 3:15
No, I asked who taught you to read or if you taught yourself to read. But seeing that the same Holy Spirit that dwells in you
dwells in him then I appreciate the heads-up. Thank you for your response to my question.
"... and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you..."
1 Peter 3:15
No, I asked who taught you to read or if you taught yourself to read. But seeing that the same Holy Spirit that dwells in you
dwells in him then I appreciate the heads-up. Thank you for your response to my question.
P
Are you once again hearing the argument for the necessity of works in salvation as those works earning salvation? Just checking because sometimes you seem to understand the argument, that works are the inevitable outcome of being born again not the procurer of salvation and are 'required' in that way, but then you turn right around and default to your original misunderstanding that we're saying works earn salvation. So I want to be careful to make sure which it is this time.
No, non-compliance only loses your salvation in the sense that it is the inevitable outcome of unbelief, just as compliant behavior is only required in salvation in the sense that it is the inevitable outcome and obligatory evidence of believing.
The struggle here is just to get you and others to even understand the argument, let alone agree with it. I've learned that just getting people to 'hear' an argument outside of their own predetermined dogma is actually the hard part, not persuading them to agree with it. Indoctrinations are very powerful. They even cause a person to be unable to even hear an opposing argument accurately.
You don't have this beef here because A) no one is saying works are necessary because they earn salvation, but rather they are necessary because work is what saving faith must look like in the born again person (or they aren't born again), and B) no one is saying you lose salvation by not doing works as if those works earn and keep earning salvation, but rather it is the unbelief that drives a return to the world that actually loses one's salvation.
No, non-compliance only loses your salvation in the sense that it is the inevitable outcome of unbelief, just as compliant behavior is only required in salvation in the sense that it is the inevitable outcome and obligatory evidence of believing.
The struggle here is just to get you and others to even understand the argument, let alone agree with it. I've learned that just getting people to 'hear' an argument outside of their own predetermined dogma is actually the hard part, not persuading them to agree with it. Indoctrinations are very powerful. They even cause a person to be unable to even hear an opposing argument accurately.
You don't have this beef here because A) no one is saying works are necessary because they earn salvation, but rather they are necessary because work is what saving faith must look like in the born again person (or they aren't born again), and B) no one is saying you lose salvation by not doing works as if those works earn and keep earning salvation, but rather it is the unbelief that drives a return to the world that actually loses one's salvation.
P
I wish this were true, but I have to not quench the impulse of the Spirit when I'm tempted to not respond in the Spirit to situations the way I should. If godliness was automatic, temptation would not exist.
Peter talks about "making every effort" in 2 Peter 1:5, and to "be all the more diligent" in vs.10. That seems to be in direct conflict with your belief that we do not have to purposely 'do' and that it's just an automatic response from the new creation. We certainly do have to make effort to do what's right. It's not automatic. The born again person does do that. The putting off of the deeds of the flesh in a circumcision of the heart is the sign of the covenant. If you do not have this sign, you are not in covenant with God. That's how works are required in salvation.
Peter talks about "making every effort" in 2 Peter 1:5, and to "be all the more diligent" in vs.10. That seems to be in direct conflict with your belief that we do not have to purposely 'do' and that it's just an automatic response from the new creation. We certainly do have to make effort to do what's right. It's not automatic. The born again person does do that. The putting off of the deeds of the flesh in a circumcision of the heart is the sign of the covenant. If you do not have this sign, you are not in covenant with God. That's how works are required in salvation.
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I see those scriptures as saying to guard our heart from bitterness caused by trials of our faith that we all go through. To keep our faith in the promises He gives personally to us. Keep from doubting His Word and His goodness.
Stay in faith that He is always working behind the scenes for our good. The overcoming life.
And just a thought. Could Jesus be speaking about child molesting? Taking their innocence away?
Stay in faith that He is always working behind the scenes for our good. The overcoming life.
And just a thought. Could Jesus be speaking about child molesting? Taking their innocence away?
P
Okay, good. We have some agreement here.
Yes, right here in CC.
Calvinist OSASer's say the true believer can never stop believing.
H-grace OSASer's say it doesn't matter, they are still saved even if they later deny Christ and go back to the world in unbelief.
By not being strong in faith in what Christ has done for you. Weak faith sets you up for being more vulnerable to a return to the world. Jesus said those who have been forgiven much love (obey) much, while those who have been forgiven little love little. Which is really a matter of perception. The more we realize and appreciate what Christ has done for us the stronger our faith will be, and as a result we will be more equipped to endure to the end and be saved at the Judgment.
Yes, right here in CC.
Calvinist OSASer's say the true believer can never stop believing.
H-grace OSASer's say it doesn't matter, they are still saved even if they later deny Christ and go back to the world in unbelief.
By not being strong in faith in what Christ has done for you. Weak faith sets you up for being more vulnerable to a return to the world. Jesus said those who have been forgiven much love (obey) much, while those who have been forgiven little love little. Which is really a matter of perception. The more we realize and appreciate what Christ has done for us the stronger our faith will be, and as a result we will be more equipped to endure to the end and be saved at the Judgment.
Again..in ALL of this effort JESUS is swept under the rug......
Jesus
a. BEGINS our FAITH
b. FINISHES our FAITH
c. COMPLETES the work of FAITH he begins in us
d. NEVER leaves us or FORSAKES US
e. NOTHING can separate us from the LOVE of GOD
TO LOSE faith, to the point that one who was saved is now lost, states clearly that JESUS failed in his mission....it makes him out to be a weak LIAR that cannot FINISH what he started, that HE cannot complete the GOOD work HE began, that HE WILL leave us and forsake US and that SOMETHING can separate us from the LOVE of GOD.......
NO MATTER how it is sliced and diced.....the above is true!
WE ARE saved to the UTTERMOST<-----study that word and BE HONEST
New American Standard Bible
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
King James Bible
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pantelés
Phonetic Spelling: (pan-tel-ace')
Short Definition: complete, forever, entirely
Definition: complete, entire, perfect, through all time.
Jesus
a. BEGINS our FAITH
b. FINISHES our FAITH
c. COMPLETES the work of FAITH he begins in us
d. NEVER leaves us or FORSAKES US
e. NOTHING can separate us from the LOVE of GOD
TO LOSE faith, to the point that one who was saved is now lost, states clearly that JESUS failed in his mission....it makes him out to be a weak LIAR that cannot FINISH what he started, that HE cannot complete the GOOD work HE began, that HE WILL leave us and forsake US and that SOMETHING can separate us from the LOVE of GOD.......
NO MATTER how it is sliced and diced.....the above is true!
WE ARE saved to the UTTERMOST<-----study that word and BE HONEST
New American Standard Bible
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
King James Bible
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
pantelés: all complete, entire
Original Word: παντελής, έςPart of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pantelés
Phonetic Spelling: (pan-tel-ace')
Short Definition: complete, forever, entirely
Definition: complete, entire, perfect, through all time.
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It would not inform us if it was not the will of God that keeps on saving till the end .If he has begun the good work in us to both will and perform his good pleasure it will last till the end. If not our confidence would then be in our own dead flesh.
Christ said his corrupted flesh profits for nothing. Where does that leave our flesh other than returning to the lifeless, spiritless dust it was formed of ? The day of the Lord is the last day of this present corrupted universe.
Are you saying he will not finish it?
Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Christ said his corrupted flesh profits for nothing. Where does that leave our flesh other than returning to the lifeless, spiritless dust it was formed of ? The day of the Lord is the last day of this present corrupted universe.
Are you saying he will not finish it?
Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Let's look at the Scripture you're quoting:
2 Peter 1:8-9 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Notice it says: if you do these things "make every effort and be diligent" you not be empty or unfruitful in your knowledge. This is talking about rewards not salvation. And we also know it's not saying they were never saved because Peter says, "forgotten they were cleansed from old sins". That means these people were cleansed and saved, not that they were never saved.
And finally Peter says this:
2 Peter 1:10-11 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Peter isn't saying, they are not saved. He is saying make sure you live like you're saved. And why? Because if you do these things you won't stumble. Why does it matter if we stumble? Because we come in through the fire (and everything burned up) or we can come with a "Richly" abundant entrance. I believe this is talking about the rewards of living a life according to the Spirit of God, but I don't believe salvation is a reward, but a free gift.
2 Peter 1:8-9 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Notice it says: if you do these things "make every effort and be diligent" you not be empty or unfruitful in your knowledge. This is talking about rewards not salvation. And we also know it's not saying they were never saved because Peter says, "forgotten they were cleansed from old sins". That means these people were cleansed and saved, not that they were never saved.
And finally Peter says this:
2 Peter 1:10-11 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Peter isn't saying, they are not saved. He is saying make sure you live like you're saved. And why? Because if you do these things you won't stumble. Why does it matter if we stumble? Because we come in through the fire (and everything burned up) or we can come with a "Richly" abundant entrance. I believe this is talking about the rewards of living a life according to the Spirit of God, but I don't believe salvation is a reward, but a free gift.
P
I agree with those things. But do you agree it includes so we will not literally stop believing in Christ for salvation and be lost? Some warnings speak directly to the matter of salvation, not just the matter of the goodness of God in this life.
I don't see that as a stumbling that people cause that puts a little one who believes in Christ in danger of hell fire. Unless you want to explain what you mean more.
I don't see that as a stumbling that people cause that puts a little one who believes in Christ in danger of hell fire. Unless you want to explain what you mean more.
P
I'm saying he finishes if for everyone who stays in it to the end.
In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, Paul said you are saved if (as you surely are) you hold fast the gospel I first preached to you (Corinthians). This obviously means you are not saved if you do not hold fast the gospel I first preached to you (Corinthians).
The point is, you have to be believing to the very end to be saved. Why warn them about that if it's a given that every believer always does without exception?
In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, Paul said you are saved if (as you surely are) you hold fast the gospel I first preached to you (Corinthians). This obviously means you are not saved if you do not hold fast the gospel I first preached to you (Corinthians).
The point is, you have to be believing to the very end to be saved. Why warn them about that if it's a given that every believer always does without exception?
P
Did you notice that this 'doing', this 'diligence' is what confirms one as being called and chosen (vs.10)? That's the point of contention. Works are indeed 'required' in a salvation experience because that is the obligatory mark in the flesh for the one who is in covenant with God.
This is not to be confused with an argument that the diligence to work somehow earns one's salvation. They confirm it. Why? Because that's what the faith that saves all by itself looks like in a person. That's why works have to accompany salvation. If you do not have this mark in the flesh, this circumcision of the putting off of the deeds of the flesh, you are showing yourself to not be in covenant with God. That makes works 'required' in salvation. That's what being in covenant with God through faith apart from your works looks like. That's not a 'works earn salvation' gospel. That's a 'works must confirm your salvation' gospel.
This is not to be confused with an argument that the diligence to work somehow earns one's salvation. They confirm it. Why? Because that's what the faith that saves all by itself looks like in a person. That's why works have to accompany salvation. If you do not have this mark in the flesh, this circumcision of the putting off of the deeds of the flesh, you are showing yourself to not be in covenant with God. That makes works 'required' in salvation. That's what being in covenant with God through faith apart from your works looks like. That's not a 'works earn salvation' gospel. That's a 'works must confirm your salvation' gospel.
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No, I don't believe that we could ever lose our faith to a point of losing salvation. We do guard our heart and examine ourself that no seeds of doubt or unbelief is forming in our thoughts. But, our faith grows as we see Him moving in our life. Over the course of our life, the roots of faith go down deep.
Did you know that the mustard bushes roots are known to go down to a depth of 23 feet? Can't stamp out that faith.
The enemy lies about God just as he did in the beginning. The Word is Spirit and life, and our new nature loves Him, and His words.
He has has given us everything we need in the gift of Holy Spirit, and He is always at work to cause growth in our life.
I have a heart for children who have been abused. And children tend to believe what adults say and do. It's a great responsibility before God.
Also I've seen that children easily believe bible stories.
Did you know that the mustard bushes roots are known to go down to a depth of 23 feet? Can't stamp out that faith.
The enemy lies about God just as he did in the beginning. The Word is Spirit and life, and our new nature loves Him, and His words.
He has has given us everything we need in the gift of Holy Spirit, and He is always at work to cause growth in our life.
I have a heart for children who have been abused. And children tend to believe what adults say and do. It's a great responsibility before God.
Also I've seen that children easily believe bible stories.
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P
Notice in 2 Timothy 2:12-13 that the outcome of denying Christ and being unfaithful are two different things. So we know that denying Christ is one thing, and being unfaithful is another. If we deny Christ he will deny us. If we are unfaithful he won't deny us. It is denying Christ in unbelief that will cause Him to deny you and you be lost. But the struggles and failures of our growing up into Christ, all the while clinging to the blood of Christ to cover those failures, does not result in Christ denying us--we are still saved. Only an outright denial and rejection of Christ can cause Christ to deny us and we lose our salvation.