You Say You Believe Paul
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Jesus told the disciples 17 times that He was going to die and yet they still didn't believe it. The carnal mind of man cannot interpret the scriptures accurately - including the words of Jesus.
If we read them through the Old Covenant mindset - there will always be a "veil" that shrouds our minds from seeing the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work on the cross.
Only by turning to the Lord - which means "seeing" what He has already done will the "veil" of the Old Covenant which includes all of the law of Moses ( including the 10 commandments ) be taken away.
Only the accurate knowledge of the work of Christ will remove the "veil" that covers our belief system.
2 Corinthians 3:14-16 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
What we call "conflict" between Jesus and Paul is simply due to our "interpretation" of Jesus' words especially when read through the "veil" of the Old Covenant mindset and if we don't take the context in mind then we will always have seemingly conflict between Paul and Jesus' words.
If we read them through the Old Covenant mindset - there will always be a "veil" that shrouds our minds from seeing the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work on the cross.
Only by turning to the Lord - which means "seeing" what He has already done will the "veil" of the Old Covenant which includes all of the law of Moses ( including the 10 commandments ) be taken away.
Only the accurate knowledge of the work of Christ will remove the "veil" that covers our belief system.
2 Corinthians 3:14-16 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
What we call "conflict" between Jesus and Paul is simply due to our "interpretation" of Jesus' words especially when read through the "veil" of the Old Covenant mindset and if we don't take the context in mind then we will always have seemingly conflict between Paul and Jesus' words.
It is my heart's desire that all come to Jesus christ. As for unbelieving Jews, for the time being, they are of the number not yet called, and I cannot pronounce on them. This would be reining without the King prestn.
I do know we are all free to love all Jews whether they believe or not untill all is revealed. We are taught tolove all, even our enemies. To love a person and pray for their salvation does not mean approving of ttheir sin, for this would make us partakers of their sin therefore guilty also.
Love is so important, and dI speak of the true and correct love that is God. It covers a multitude of sin. God is wonderful.
Of late I have been drawn to Christ's saying to believe He is the Son of god and we are saved, halleluyah, and amen. How much more grace may a person receive than this.
Many folks do not appreciate what believing Him is. It is not lip service, but there is nothing to worry about when we know we are saved by our blessed Jesus, and it is free, we naturally, our new nature, want to do whatever we can to say thank you.
Thanksgiving is the only sacrifice we may give to God since the only Sacrifice for sin, Jesus Christ.
Praise God, you are a blessing, and not in disguise. The Holy Spirit reveals this to all, amen.
I do know we are all free to love all Jews whether they believe or not untill all is revealed. We are taught tolove all, even our enemies. To love a person and pray for their salvation does not mean approving of ttheir sin, for this would make us partakers of their sin therefore guilty also.
Love is so important, and dI speak of the true and correct love that is God. It covers a multitude of sin. God is wonderful.
Of late I have been drawn to Christ's saying to believe He is the Son of god and we are saved, halleluyah, and amen. How much more grace may a person receive than this.
Many folks do not appreciate what believing Him is. It is not lip service, but there is nothing to worry about when we know we are saved by our blessed Jesus, and it is free, we naturally, our new nature, want to do whatever we can to say thank you.
Thanksgiving is the only sacrifice we may give to God since the only Sacrifice for sin, Jesus Christ.
Praise God, you are a blessing, and not in disguise. The Holy Spirit reveals this to all, amen.
Jesus is a higher authority than Paul, but gospels are not higher authority than letters.
Gospels were written by apostles, only they knew the context of His words and words that were not written down. And these apostles approved Paul to be a proper teacher and his letters to be Scriptures.
Therefore, there must be no division between various writings of the New Testament. All are equal.
Gospels were written by apostles, only they knew the context of His words and words that were not written down. And these apostles approved Paul to be a proper teacher and his letters to be Scriptures.
Therefore, there must be no division between various writings of the New Testament. All are equal.
Boy is this a true misconstruing of the way things are.
The Gospel was first given to Abraham 430 years prior to the law given to Moses.
The Gospel is steh same teaching Jesus preached toHis brethren .
It is the same teaching given to gentiles by the Twelve and Paul
The Apostles wrote down the account of Jesus and were inspired by the Holy Spirit just as were all prophets who preceded them
By your reasoning, the New testament shuld be excluded from the Bible because Jesus did not write it,.
Jesus gave all of the Word to those who wrote it down for us to read later in prayer andmeditation, asking for guidance by theHoy Spirit always.
The Gospel was first given to Abraham 430 years prior to the law given to Moses.
The Gospel is steh same teaching Jesus preached toHis brethren .
It is the same teaching given to gentiles by the Twelve and Paul
The Apostles wrote down the account of Jesus and were inspired by the Holy Spirit just as were all prophets who preceded them
By your reasoning, the New testament shuld be excluded from the Bible because Jesus did not write it,.
Jesus gave all of the Word to those who wrote it down for us to read later in prayer andmeditation, asking for guidance by theHoy Spirit always.
Apparently several of you have proven you do not believe Pau, for after reading my post supporting Paul with
examples from his own teaching, you are leveling charges that I am speaking against him
Sorry, but I may only conclued I believe Paul, and you who accuse do not believe him. Worse you are also speaking agins Jesus.
examples from his own teaching, you are leveling charges that I am speaking against him
Sorry, but I may only conclued I believe Paul, and you who accuse do not believe him. Worse you are also speaking agins Jesus.
Gosh, it points out that the first person to receive the Gospel was Abraham who was promised his desendants woud possess teh Gate of their enemies. Jesus Christ is that Gate.....we enter to be with those of God who possess that Gate.
Abraham is the first, to my knowledge, to prophesy Christ being the sacrifice for sin...
Reading the Bible in prayer,meditation and teh guidance of teh Holy Spirit will answer all your qustions, truly, God says so.
Abraham is the first, to my knowledge, to prophesy Christ being the sacrifice for sin...
Reading the Bible in prayer,meditation and teh guidance of teh Holy Spirit will answer all your qustions, truly, God says so.
Here is an excellent post from a CC member about this Jesus vs. Paul thing that we people make up in our heads.
Quote:
The following article is aimed more toward those who preach that Christians should be keeping Old Covenant laws to either gain or maintain salvation, but the same concept applies to those who try to somehow say that there is conflict between what Jesus taught and what Paul or the other Apostles taught, or that we should be 'following' the words of one over the other.
No - there is no conflict, one needs simply to rightly divide the words - who they were spoken to, were they spoken before or after the Work of Christ, and are you in Christ or in Adam?
Determining the answers to those questions as you read not only the NT, but the whole of Scripture, will help you to rightly discern what the Scriptures are saying =).
I hope you find this to be helpful in sorting out this issue!
Grace and peace,
-JGIG
Jesus’ Gospel? Paul’s Gospel?
Posted on September 26, 2014 by JGIG
Jesus’ Gospel? Paul’s Gospel? Are they different? Or are they complementary? Is Paul’s Gospel ‘his’, or is it God’s Gospel embraced by Paul? Are Paul’s writings (and the other apostolic writings in the New Covenant Scriptures) what Jesus alluded to in John 16?
I was asked this question in an email recently:
“Another question, some at hrm [Hebrew Roots Movement/Torah pursuant folks] say there is the gospel of Jesus vs the gospel of Paul. Basically they teach that Paul wrote his own gospel even though Jesus clearly stated after his death burial and resurrection there would be more to come(information).”
My response (edited and expanded for this venue):
That’s a great question! In John 16, Jesus says this:
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Jesus is clearly telling His disciples that there is more truth to come that they, on that side of the Cross, could not, would not understand.
The Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect High Priesthood all needed to be in place before the fullness of the Gospel of Grace could be explained.
With the implications to the Law and Israel’s relationship with it and with God, when you think about it, it kinda had to be Paul to receive that revelation of the Gospel of Grace.
Paul was a Pharisee of the highest reputation, knowing the Law inside and out. For him to embrace the Gospel of Grace, which he proclaimed to be ‘his’ Gospel, was huge.
To address that question real quick, Paul, by the end of his letter to the Romans states that it is ‘his’ Gospel, not in an ‘I thought it up and created it’ way, but in an ‘I now embrace this Gospel of Grace as my Good News, applied to my life – the New Covenant, superior to the Old Covenant for which I had such passion’ way.
Note that in Romans 1, Paul says this:
16 For I am not ashamed of >>> the <<< gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
At the beginning of the letter to the Romans it is ‘the’ Gospel, and the letter to the Romans is a treatise on our
>>> need <<< for the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, the
>>> supply <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, and the
>>> results <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike.
And Paul expertly weaves the proper use of the Law and the application and superiority of Grace throughout – at the end proclaiming, as a former Pharisee Law-keeper, that this is *his* Gospel – a Gospel that he embraces *himself*, after having gone through the issues of Law and Grace point by point throughout the letter (and also in his other letters).
Now read Paul’s closing comments in Romans 16:
25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages
26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations,
>>> according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith— <<<
27 to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.
So the Gospel that Paul preached was not a gospel apart from Christ’s, but Paul’s and the other apostolic New Covenant writings were the fulfillment of what Christ said in John 16.
Paul minces no words here when establishing the source and authority for what he was teaching to the Galatians:
11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel.
12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it,
>>> but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. <<<
13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14 And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16
>>> was pleased to reveal his Son to me, <<<
in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
One thing to note here, as well, is that Jesus said that the Spirit of Truth would point to and glorify Christ – not to point to and glorify the Law, but to Christ, which is what Paul and the other apostles do all throughout the New Covenant Scriptures.
God was no longer relating to mankind – nor was He desiring mankind to relate to Him – through the Law, but through the Work and Person of God in the flesh, Christ Jesus.
So Paul (and the others) were not writing their own ‘gospels’; they were carrying out the fulfillment of Jesus’ words in John 16 – they were receiving that further information that could be understood on the side of the Cross where they now lived and we do too – revealing what was actually accomplished at the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and with the High Priesthood of Christ – and writing it down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
The point of this post is to show that Paul does not contradict the Gospel of Christ, but by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, explains it.
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (from John 16)
Paul, in particular, expertly goes back to the Law and the Prophets and shows how the Old Covenant shadows give way to the New Covenant realities in Christ.
So the next time a Law ‘keeper’ tries to tell you that Paul’s Gospel is either ‘misunderstood’ (those who try to twist Paul’s words to support Torah observance for believers) or a ‘different’ gospel from Jesus’ Gospel (those who reject Paul’s writings outright), point them to John 16!
(I found the illustration at a pro-Islam think tank site, btw. Funny, they use the same arguments that HRMers tend to use!)
Grace and peace to you in our Lord, Jesus Christ!
-JGIG
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/147115-live-jesus-teachings-pauls-8.html#post2952424
Quote:
The following article is aimed more toward those who preach that Christians should be keeping Old Covenant laws to either gain or maintain salvation, but the same concept applies to those who try to somehow say that there is conflict between what Jesus taught and what Paul or the other Apostles taught, or that we should be 'following' the words of one over the other.
No - there is no conflict, one needs simply to rightly divide the words - who they were spoken to, were they spoken before or after the Work of Christ, and are you in Christ or in Adam?
Determining the answers to those questions as you read not only the NT, but the whole of Scripture, will help you to rightly discern what the Scriptures are saying =).
I hope you find this to be helpful in sorting out this issue!
Grace and peace,
-JGIG
Jesus’ Gospel? Paul’s Gospel?
Posted on September 26, 2014 by JGIG
Jesus’ Gospel? Paul’s Gospel? Are they different? Or are they complementary? Is Paul’s Gospel ‘his’, or is it God’s Gospel embraced by Paul? Are Paul’s writings (and the other apostolic writings in the New Covenant Scriptures) what Jesus alluded to in John 16?
“Another question, some at hrm [Hebrew Roots Movement/Torah pursuant folks] say there is the gospel of Jesus vs the gospel of Paul. Basically they teach that Paul wrote his own gospel even though Jesus clearly stated after his death burial and resurrection there would be more to come(information).”
My response (edited and expanded for this venue):
That’s a great question! In John 16, Jesus says this:
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Jesus is clearly telling His disciples that there is more truth to come that they, on that side of the Cross, could not, would not understand.
The Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect High Priesthood all needed to be in place before the fullness of the Gospel of Grace could be explained.
With the implications to the Law and Israel’s relationship with it and with God, when you think about it, it kinda had to be Paul to receive that revelation of the Gospel of Grace.
Paul was a Pharisee of the highest reputation, knowing the Law inside and out. For him to embrace the Gospel of Grace, which he proclaimed to be ‘his’ Gospel, was huge.
To address that question real quick, Paul, by the end of his letter to the Romans states that it is ‘his’ Gospel, not in an ‘I thought it up and created it’ way, but in an ‘I now embrace this Gospel of Grace as my Good News, applied to my life – the New Covenant, superior to the Old Covenant for which I had such passion’ way.
Note that in Romans 1, Paul says this:
16 For I am not ashamed of >>> the <<< gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
At the beginning of the letter to the Romans it is ‘the’ Gospel, and the letter to the Romans is a treatise on our
>>> need <<< for the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, the
>>> supply <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, and the
>>> results <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike.
And Paul expertly weaves the proper use of the Law and the application and superiority of Grace throughout – at the end proclaiming, as a former Pharisee Law-keeper, that this is *his* Gospel – a Gospel that he embraces *himself*, after having gone through the issues of Law and Grace point by point throughout the letter (and also in his other letters).
Now read Paul’s closing comments in Romans 16:
25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages
26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations,
>>> according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith— <<<
27 to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.
So the Gospel that Paul preached was not a gospel apart from Christ’s, but Paul’s and the other apostolic New Covenant writings were the fulfillment of what Christ said in John 16.
Paul minces no words here when establishing the source and authority for what he was teaching to the Galatians:
11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel.
12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it,
>>> but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. <<<
13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14 And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16
>>> was pleased to reveal his Son to me, <<<
in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
One thing to note here, as well, is that Jesus said that the Spirit of Truth would point to and glorify Christ – not to point to and glorify the Law, but to Christ, which is what Paul and the other apostles do all throughout the New Covenant Scriptures.
God was no longer relating to mankind – nor was He desiring mankind to relate to Him – through the Law, but through the Work and Person of God in the flesh, Christ Jesus.
So Paul (and the others) were not writing their own ‘gospels’; they were carrying out the fulfillment of Jesus’ words in John 16 – they were receiving that further information that could be understood on the side of the Cross where they now lived and we do too – revealing what was actually accomplished at the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and with the High Priesthood of Christ – and writing it down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
The point of this post is to show that Paul does not contradict the Gospel of Christ, but by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, explains it.
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (from John 16)
Paul, in particular, expertly goes back to the Law and the Prophets and shows how the Old Covenant shadows give way to the New Covenant realities in Christ.
So the next time a Law ‘keeper’ tries to tell you that Paul’s Gospel is either ‘misunderstood’ (those who try to twist Paul’s words to support Torah observance for believers) or a ‘different’ gospel from Jesus’ Gospel (those who reject Paul’s writings outright), point them to John 16!
(I found the illustration at a pro-Islam think tank site, btw. Funny, they use the same arguments that HRMers tend to use!)
Grace and peace to you in our Lord, Jesus Christ!
-JGIG
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/147115-live-jesus-teachings-pauls-8.html#post2952424
For the last time, the post supports Paul as supporting Jesus. Try reading it. This is not Paul vs. Jesus. Are you purposely being stupid?
Here is an excellent post from a CC member about this Jesus vs. Paul thing that we people make up in our heads.
Quote:
The following article is aimed more toward those who preach that Christians should be keeping Old Covenant laws to either gain or maintain salvation, but the same concept applies to those who try to somehow say that there is conflict between what Jesus taught and what Paul or the other Apostles taught, or that we should be 'following' the words of one over the other.
No - there is no conflict, one needs simply to rightly divide the words - who they were spoken to, were they spoken before or after the Work of Christ, and are you in Christ or in Adam?
Determining the answers to those questions as you read not only the NT, but the whole of Scripture, will help you to rightly discern what the Scriptures are saying =).
I hope you find this to be helpful in sorting out this issue!
Grace and peace,
-JGIG
Jesus’ Gospel? Paul’s Gospel?
Posted on September 26, 2014 by JGIG
Jesus’ Gospel? Paul’s Gospel? Are they different? Or are they complementary? Is Paul’s Gospel ‘his’, or is it God’s Gospel embraced by Paul? Are Paul’s writings (and the other apostolic writings in the New Covenant Scriptures) what Jesus alluded to in John 16?
I was asked this question in an email recently:
“Another question, some at hrm [Hebrew Roots Movement/Torah pursuant folks] say there is the gospel of Jesus vs the gospel of Paul. Basically they teach that Paul wrote his own gospel even though Jesus clearly stated after his death burial and resurrection there would be more to come(information).”
My response (edited and expanded for this venue):
That’s a great question! In John 16, Jesus says this:
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Jesus is clearly telling His disciples that there is more truth to come that they, on that side of the Cross, could not, would not understand.
The Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect High Priesthood all needed to be in place before the fullness of the Gospel of Grace could be explained.
With the implications to the Law and Israel’s relationship with it and with God, when you think about it, it kinda had to be Paul to receive that revelation of the Gospel of Grace.
Paul was a Pharisee of the highest reputation, knowing the Law inside and out. For him to embrace the Gospel of Grace, which he proclaimed to be ‘his’ Gospel, was huge.
To address that question real quick, Paul, by the end of his letter to the Romans states that it is ‘his’ Gospel, not in an ‘I thought it up and created it’ way, but in an ‘I now embrace this Gospel of Grace as my Good News, applied to my life – the New Covenant, superior to the Old Covenant for which I had such passion’ way.
Note that in Romans 1, Paul says this:
16 For I am not ashamed of >>> the <<< gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
At the beginning of the letter to the Romans it is ‘the’ Gospel, and the letter to the Romans is a treatise on our
>>> need <<< for the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, the
>>> supply <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, and the
>>> results <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike.
And Paul expertly weaves the proper use of the Law and the application and superiority of Grace throughout – at the end proclaiming, as a former Pharisee Law-keeper, that this is *his* Gospel – a Gospel that he embraces *himself*, after having gone through the issues of Law and Grace point by point throughout the letter (and also in his other letters).
Now read Paul’s closing comments in Romans 16:
25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages
26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations,
>>> according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith— <<<
27 to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.
So the Gospel that Paul preached was not a gospel apart from Christ’s, but Paul’s and the other apostolic New Covenant writings were the fulfillment of what Christ said in John 16.
Paul minces no words here when establishing the source and authority for what he was teaching to the Galatians:
11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel.
12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it,
>>> but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. <<<
13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14 And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16
>>> was pleased to reveal his Son to me, <<<
in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
One thing to note here, as well, is that Jesus said that the Spirit of Truth would point to and glorify Christ – not to point to and glorify the Law, but to Christ, which is what Paul and the other apostles do all throughout the New Covenant Scriptures.
God was no longer relating to mankind – nor was He desiring mankind to relate to Him – through the Law, but through the Work and Person of God in the flesh, Christ Jesus.
So Paul (and the others) were not writing their own ‘gospels’; they were carrying out the fulfillment of Jesus’ words in John 16 – they were receiving that further information that could be understood on the side of the Cross where they now lived and we do too– revealing what was actually accomplished at the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and with the High Priesthood of Christ – and writing it down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
The point of this post is to show that Paul does not contradict the Gospel of Christ, but by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, explains it.
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (from John 16)
Paul, in particular, expertly goes back to the Law and the Prophets and shows how the Old Covenant shadows give way to the New Covenant realities in Christ.
So the next time a Law ‘keeper’ tries to tell you that Paul’s Gospel is either ‘misunderstood’ (those who try to twist Paul’s words to support Torah observance for believers) or a ‘different’ gospel from Jesus’ Gospel (those who reject Paul’s writings outright), point them to John 16!
(I found the illustration at a pro-Islam think tank site, btw. Funny, they use the same arguments that HRMers tend to use!)
Grace and peace to you in our Lord, Jesus Christ!
-JGIG
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/147115-live-jesus-teachings-pauls-8.html#post2952424
Quote:
The following article is aimed more toward those who preach that Christians should be keeping Old Covenant laws to either gain or maintain salvation, but the same concept applies to those who try to somehow say that there is conflict between what Jesus taught and what Paul or the other Apostles taught, or that we should be 'following' the words of one over the other.
No - there is no conflict, one needs simply to rightly divide the words - who they were spoken to, were they spoken before or after the Work of Christ, and are you in Christ or in Adam?
Determining the answers to those questions as you read not only the NT, but the whole of Scripture, will help you to rightly discern what the Scriptures are saying =).
I hope you find this to be helpful in sorting out this issue!
Grace and peace,
-JGIG
Jesus’ Gospel? Paul’s Gospel?
Posted on September 26, 2014 by JGIG
Jesus’ Gospel? Paul’s Gospel? Are they different? Or are they complementary? Is Paul’s Gospel ‘his’, or is it God’s Gospel embraced by Paul? Are Paul’s writings (and the other apostolic writings in the New Covenant Scriptures) what Jesus alluded to in John 16?
“Another question, some at hrm [Hebrew Roots Movement/Torah pursuant folks] say there is the gospel of Jesus vs the gospel of Paul. Basically they teach that Paul wrote his own gospel even though Jesus clearly stated after his death burial and resurrection there would be more to come(information).”
My response (edited and expanded for this venue):
That’s a great question! In John 16, Jesus says this:
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Jesus is clearly telling His disciples that there is more truth to come that they, on that side of the Cross, could not, would not understand.
The Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect High Priesthood all needed to be in place before the fullness of the Gospel of Grace could be explained.
With the implications to the Law and Israel’s relationship with it and with God, when you think about it, it kinda had to be Paul to receive that revelation of the Gospel of Grace.
Paul was a Pharisee of the highest reputation, knowing the Law inside and out. For him to embrace the Gospel of Grace, which he proclaimed to be ‘his’ Gospel, was huge.
To address that question real quick, Paul, by the end of his letter to the Romans states that it is ‘his’ Gospel, not in an ‘I thought it up and created it’ way, but in an ‘I now embrace this Gospel of Grace as my Good News, applied to my life – the New Covenant, superior to the Old Covenant for which I had such passion’ way.
Note that in Romans 1, Paul says this:
16 For I am not ashamed of >>> the <<< gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
At the beginning of the letter to the Romans it is ‘the’ Gospel, and the letter to the Romans is a treatise on our
>>> need <<< for the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, the
>>> supply <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, and the
>>> results <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike.
And Paul expertly weaves the proper use of the Law and the application and superiority of Grace throughout – at the end proclaiming, as a former Pharisee Law-keeper, that this is *his* Gospel – a Gospel that he embraces *himself*, after having gone through the issues of Law and Grace point by point throughout the letter (and also in his other letters).
Now read Paul’s closing comments in Romans 16:
25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages
26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations,
>>> according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith— <<<
27 to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.
So the Gospel that Paul preached was not a gospel apart from Christ’s, but Paul’s and the other apostolic New Covenant writings were the fulfillment of what Christ said in John 16.
Paul minces no words here when establishing the source and authority for what he was teaching to the Galatians:
11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel.
12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it,
>>> but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. <<<
13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14 And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16
>>> was pleased to reveal his Son to me, <<<
in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
One thing to note here, as well, is that Jesus said that the Spirit of Truth would point to and glorify Christ – not to point to and glorify the Law, but to Christ, which is what Paul and the other apostles do all throughout the New Covenant Scriptures.
God was no longer relating to mankind – nor was He desiring mankind to relate to Him – through the Law, but through the Work and Person of God in the flesh, Christ Jesus.
So Paul (and the others) were not writing their own ‘gospels’; they were carrying out the fulfillment of Jesus’ words in John 16 – they were receiving that further information that could be understood on the side of the Cross where they now lived and we do too– revealing what was actually accomplished at the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and with the High Priesthood of Christ – and writing it down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
The point of this post is to show that Paul does not contradict the Gospel of Christ, but by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, explains it.
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (from John 16)
Paul, in particular, expertly goes back to the Law and the Prophets and shows how the Old Covenant shadows give way to the New Covenant realities in Christ.
So the next time a Law ‘keeper’ tries to tell you that Paul’s Gospel is either ‘misunderstood’ (those who try to twist Paul’s words to support Torah observance for believers) or a ‘different’ gospel from Jesus’ Gospel (those who reject Paul’s writings outright), point them to John 16!
(I found the illustration at a pro-Islam think tank site, btw. Funny, they use the same arguments that HRMers tend to use!)
Grace and peace to you in our Lord, Jesus Christ!
-JGIG
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/147115-live-jesus-teachings-pauls-8.html#post2952424
For those who have responded to my OP yet call it a Paul vs. Jesus thread.
It is only seen this way by any who have not read and understood my post supporting Paul who supports Jesus.
Some of you have twisted this into being Hebrew Roots (nothing wrong with them) but it is not, and you know it.
Some of you do not se itshows Paul is supporting Jesus. Are you all deaf, dumb and blind? It seems so.
Until you understand, anyone posting this is a Paul vs. Jesus thread will be ignored because you hav enot read or understood, one or the other, and you will not go back and read teh oP.
It is only seen this way by any who have not read and understood my post supporting Paul who supports Jesus.
Some of you have twisted this into being Hebrew Roots (nothing wrong with them) but it is not, and you know it.
Some of you do not se itshows Paul is supporting Jesus. Are you all deaf, dumb and blind? It seems so.
Until you understand, anyone posting this is a Paul vs. Jesus thread will be ignored because you hav enot read or understood, one or the other, and you will not go back and read teh oP.
I think where people get that "people that quote Paul" bit - to show what the real gospel of the grace of God in Christ is from the quote in the OP in brown above.
It appears what is being said is - "If what you quote from Paul "conflicts" with our interpretation of the "Teachings of Jesus" then they are mis-using Paul which is complete nonsense.
To those that try to tell people that they need to keep the law of Moses ( such as the carnal keeping of a Sabbath day over another one or a feast ) - this is their way of discounting what Paul says about the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ because it "contradicts" their interpretations of Jesus' words..
Paul explains the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's work. Reading the words of Jesus through an Old Covenant mindset will always find "conflict" with the words of Paul.
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