Losing Salvation ?!

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#441
#441
terry_newyork_usa said:
Could you answer my question: Do you always interpret a verse that says something "will" happen as meaning that it could never change if conditions changed?
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I interpret a verse in context.

If there was a way that could stop. Paul would have told us.

My condition will not change, it will always be the same, Apart from Christ. If you think otherwise, Well, I would restudy up with is required for you to be righteous on your own apart from Gods. I think you will soon realise you too are doomed apart from Christ.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#442
#442
terry_newyork_usa said:
So when God says something is going to happen, it's going to happen EVEN IF conditions change. Do I interpret you correctly?
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What condition would change?

Are you all of a sudden going to be perfect and no longer in the need of grace?

and why do you refuse to respond to what I have said?

Can you show me were I was wrong? I said quite a bit there.
 
T

terry_newyork_usa

Guest
#443
#443
eternally-gratefull said:
What condition would change?

Are you all of a sudden going to be perfect and no longer in the need of grace?

and why do you refuse to respond to what I have said?

Can you show me were I was wrong? I said quite a bit there.
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You make a classic error. You look at a verse and say "it has to be that way," but it DOESN'T have to be that way if the condition changes. So you insert an interpretation that is erroneous. For example.

John 5:24 - He that believes ... shall not come into condemnation.
John 3:36 - He that believes not ... shall not see life.

If you assert that John 5:24 is a promise that CANNOT change, then, to be logical and consistent, you must also say that John 3:36 CANNOT change either, and therefore unbelievers can never change that condition and become believers and see life.

The classic error is seeing a verse that promises something and assuming it HAS to be that way and it can't change if conditions change.
 
P

Persuaded

Guest
#444
#444
terry_newyork_usa said:
You make a classic error. You look at a verse and say "it has to be that way," but it DOESN'T have to be that way if the condition changes. So you insert an interpretation that is erroneous. For example.

John 5:24 - He that believes ... shall not come into condemnation.
John 3:36 - He that believes not ... shall not see life.

If you assert that John 5:24 is a promise that CANNOT change, then, to be logical and consistent, you must also say that John 3:36 CANNOT change either, and therefore unbelievers can never change that condition and become believers and see life.

The classic error is seeing a verse that promises something and assuming it HAS to be that way and it can't change if conditions change.
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Conditions change. People change. God's Word never changes. Eternal means eternal and is not dependent on conditions changing nor people changing but on His promise.
 
P

Persuaded

Guest
#445
#445
eternally-gratefull said:
I interpret a verse in context.

If there was a way that could stop. Paul would have told us.

My condition will not change, it will always be the same, Apart from Christ. If you think otherwise, Well, I would restudy up with is required for you to be righteous on your own apart from Gods. I think you will soon realise you too are doomed apart from Christ.
Click to expand...
You may choose to put you hope for eternal life in your hands if you choose.
I put my in the hands God.
 
T

terry_newyork_usa

Guest
#446
#446
Persuaded said:
Conditions change. People change. God's Word never changes. Eternal means eternal and is not dependent on conditions changing nor people changing but on His promise.
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So the unbeliever in John 3:36 can't change and become a believer. Brilliant!
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#447
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
#447
Some things cannot come from a change of mind after things have been put into being as an established truth.

Can someone by an "act of their will" or "changing their mind" un-born themselves from being a human being?

Can they one day say "I don't want to be a human anymore so I as an act of my will by changing my mind - I am un-borning myself" ( we would think there is something wrong with this person's mind and there is..:) )

Can some one by "an act of their will" through the "changing of their mind" stop being a son/daughter to their father?

Of course not - they will always be the child of their father once they are born whether they like it or not.

We can no more by "an act of our will" un-born ourselves from God which Peter says we are born again of incorruptible seed which lives and abides forever.

We cannot "un-child" ourselves from being God's child because of Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

( we can become sick in our minds as the person that wants to "un-born" themselves as a human but the real us - the inner man of the heart that is in Christ - that inner man has his will entwined with God's perfect will because of union with Christ )

This is one of the reasons we need to "renew our mind" to align up with the spiritual truths that are in our new spirit in Christ.

We believe from our heart not in our head ( where our brain is )

Following God's commandments to us will be a natural result of being in Christ as we grow up in Him.

We are looking at what "we do" when we say that we lose salvation for going to heaven instead of what "Jesus has already done". It is a works-based doctrine that actually denies the work and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be with you and in you forever. Now, is Jesus a liar? That's a question to ask ourselves.

Our Father will perfect that which concerns us for it is He that is at work in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. I'll trust His love in us to "guide us" through life. Phil. 2:13

There is also discipline of the Lord ( child-training in Greek - not "un-childing" them as children ) This proves that we are legitimate children of God.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
 
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Jackson123

Senior Member
#448
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
#448
Persuaded said:
Conditions change. People change. God's Word never changes. Eternal means eternal and is not dependent on conditions changing nor people changing but on His promise.
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yep God never change, He punish disobidient Adam and eve thoug they obidient for some time.

He punish disobidient Israel, though Israel was obidient for some time, He is not change, He Will punish disobidient Christian.

If branch not abide to the vine anymore, It Will be Cut of and burn/hell/losing his salvation
 
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Jackson123

Senior Member
#449
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
#449
Grace777x70 said:
Some things cannot come from a change of mind after things have been put into being as an established truth.

Can someone by an "act of their will" or "changing their mind" un-born themselves from being a human being?

Can they one day say "I don't want to be a human anymore so I as an act of my will by changing my mind - I am un-borning myself" ( we would think there is something wrong with this person's mind and there is..:) )

Can some one by "an act of their will" through the "changing of their mind" stop being a son/daughter to their father?

Of course not - they will always be the child of their father once they are born whether they like it or not.

We can no more by "an act of our will" un-born ourselves from God which Peter says we are born again of incorruptible seed which lives and abides forever.

We cannot "un-child" ourselves from being God's child because of Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

( we can become sick in our minds as the person that wants to "un-born" themselves as a human but the real us - the inner man of the heart that is in Christ - that inner man has his will entwined with God's perfect will because of union with Christ )

This is one of the reasons we need to "renew our mind" to align up with the spiritual truths that are in our new spirit in Christ.

We believe from our heart not in our head ( where our brain is )

Following God's commandments to us will be a natural result of being in Christ as we grow up in Him.

We are looking at what "we do" when we say that we lose salvation for going to heaven instead of what "Jesus has already done". It is a works-based doctrine that actually denies the work and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be with you and in you forever. Now, is Jesus a liar? That's a question to ask ourselves.

Our Father will perfect that which concerns us for it is He that is at work in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. I'll trust His love in us to "guide us" through life. Phil. 2:13

There is also discipline of the Lord ( child-training in Greek - not "un-childing" them as children ) This proves that we are legitimate children of God.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Click to expand...
But according to Jesus in Matt 13, persecution make Rocky soil type of Christian change.
 
RickyZ

RickyZ

Senior Member
#450
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
#450
eternally-gratefull said:
i do not think you understand

you gave a hypothetical, and then asked which one of the two we believed, you asked a close ended question, all I am doing is try to open the question up for discussion,

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You didn't try to open up the question for discussion, you accused me of judging people.

I can get that you don't understand what other people are saying, but do you really not understand what you are saying?
 
T

terry_newyork_usa

Guest
#451
#451
The opposite of being born again isn't to 'unborn' oneself. Hyper-grace teachers like yourself use this type of language in hopes that it sounds ridiculous to the hearer, thus strengthening their case. No, the opposite of being born is losing life, that is, death. Can someone born again change their mind and reject Christ and His reign over their lives, and incur to themselves death? You bet.

"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries." - Hebrews 10



Grace777x70 said:
Some things cannot come from a change of mind after things have been put into being as an established truth.

Can someone by an "act of their will" or "changing their mind" un-born themselves from being a human being?

Can they one day say "I don't want to be a human anymore so I as an act of my will by changing my mind - I am un-borning myself" ( we would think there is something wrong with this person's mind and there is..:) )

Can some one by "an act of their will" through the "changing of their mind" stop being a son/daughter to their father?

Of course not - they will always be the child of their father once they are born whether they like it or not.

We can no more by "an act of our will" un-born ourselves from God which Peter says we are born again of incorruptible seed which lives and abides forever.

We cannot "un-child" ourselves from being God's child because of Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

( we can become sick in our minds as the person that wants to "un-born" themselves as a human but the real us - the inner man of the heart that is in Christ - that inner man has his will entwined with God's perfect will because of union with Christ )

This is one of the reasons we need to "renew our mind" to align up with the spiritual truths that are in our new spirit in Christ.

We believe from our heart not in our head ( where our brain is )

Following God's commandments to us will be a natural result of being in Christ as we grow up in Him.

We are looking at what "we do" when we say that we lose salvation for going to heaven instead of what "Jesus has already done". It is a works-based doctrine that actually denies the work and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be with you and in you forever. Now, is Jesus a liar? That's a question to ask ourselves.

Our Father will perfect that which concerns us for it is He that is at work in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. I'll trust His love in us to "guide us" through life. Phil. 2:13

There is also discipline of the Lord ( child-training in Greek - not "un-childing" them as children ) This proves that we are legitimate children of God.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Click to expand...
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#452
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
#452
I will post this again about Hebrews 10:26 as there are always new viewers in these threads and the same things come up concerning Heb. 10 and the "willful sinning."

Hebrews 10:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 10:26 can be a stumbling block if we don't take the context in which this passage was written.

Some times well intentioned people take Hebrews 10:26-29 out of context with the book of Hebrews.

Anyone can take an isolated scripture out of it's context and say anything they want. Here is an example in the scripture below - Ex 32:33. Anyone who has ever sinned is blotted out of God's book.

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

This is truly stated in the OT but it is not the ultimate statement of truth. The work of Jesus's finished work on the cross trumps what is said in Ex. 32:33.

Obviously we need to view all scripture through the finished work of Christ. We don't take obscure verses and discount the abundance of clear scriptures on what our Lord has done for us.

Hebrews 10 is talking about Jewish people after hearing about Christ for the only sacrifice for sins and rejecting it to go back to the temple sacrifices for their sins.

Hebrews was written a few years before the temple system came crashing down in 70AD when it was trampled by the Roman army.

The "willful sinning" is after hearing the "knowledge" of the truth of Christ's sacrifice - those that go back to the temple sacrifices and do not receive Christ's work by faith - this is the wilful sinning being talked about - the rejection of Christ's sacrifice and blood for the forgiveness of all sins.

This is insulting the Spirit of grace. The Holy Spirit's work is to convict/convince/expose the world of their sin - which is unbelief in Christ's work. John 16:8-9

There is a vast difference between receiving the "knowledge" of the truth and "receiving the truth" which is Christ Himself.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#453
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
#453
Mankind is all "sanctified/set apart" for the gospel as far as God is concerned. It's up to us to believe it to receive the gospel of the grace of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.



Hebrews 10:29 is stating this fact that all man-kind has been set apart or sanctified for the gospel of Christ. Reject Christ sacrifice and there remains no more sacrifice for sins.

Remember the word "sanctified" means to be set apart for use - not sinning.

Here Paul is taking about being the husband who is an unbeliever as being sanctified because of the wife.

1 Corinthians 7:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

In the Old Testament we see that things were "sanctified or set apart" for a purpose or use.

Gold was sanctified or set apart for use in the temple as were the priests garments. The Sabbath day which speaks of Christ is sanctified as were other special days.
 
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FeedtheMachine

Guest
#454
#454
I cannot understand how a truly born again disciple of Jesus will ever get to a point where he starts denying Christ as Lord and Savior. That would make no sense to me.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#456
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
#456
FeedtheMachine said:
I cannot understand how a truly born again disciple of Jesus will ever get to a point where he starts denying Christ as Lord and Savior. That would make no sense to me.
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I agree but I also can see where in "their mind" they can because of various reasons seem to walk away from the Lord ( which is some people's mind's this means - not going to church ).

For example I have seen some people reject some things about what is taught in some churches - like - "God killed your child in order to teach you something."

The heart of nan will reject that belief as it is contrary to the life and very nature of God as Jesus showed Him to be when He was on this earth. We were not wired by God in our hearts to entertain such a belief as that nor to believe in a "being" that is like that.

Therefore in their "messed up minds" they can reject seemingly "the things of God" but in their heart - where true belief is manifested and where we are joined as one spirit with the Lord forever - they never reject Christ Himself - just what others say.

The Lord will always bring these people back to Himself as He reveals His true nature to them.

So, in essence I can see people saying things out of their "mixed up minds" but that does not really reflect the truth that is in their hearts. The proper renewing of the mind to the realities of Christ and in what He has already done is crucial to walking in His life being manifested in and through us while on this earth.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever. John 14:16 We can trust in Him and in all that He has already done for us that have believed the message of the gospel when we heard of "Him".

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#457
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
#457
I believe a "messed up mind" comes from having a distorted view of the gospel and from bad teaching such as IMO - this whole lose your salvation doctrine which to me is a complete denial of the work of Christ on the cross and resurrection.

I believe a lot of sincere believers have left the church ( not Jesus ) because they could not live this religious "sinless perfection in the flesh" Christian life that was being preached to them by some people.

They loved Jesus " in their heart" but they didn't want to be a hypocrite so they backed away from the organized church.

Then there is the group that struggled with a certain sin and were never taught about grace properly and so they left because they were defeated. Constantly feeling condemned and guilty and full of shame. The legalists keep preaching at them to change!

The only true transformation that is effective is from the true manifestation of the life of Jesus that is already in us - in our new creation and that only comes with the message of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

I believe there are thousands of Christians like this but I also believe the Lord is bringing them back to Him - only this time it will be based on the true knowledge of Him and His love and grace for them.

The Lord is bringing His beloved back to Him. Let's not have the judgmental works-based older brother who doesn't know the heart and true nature of the Father to meet them at the door of our churches instead of having the Father meet them.

I believe in preaching the love and grace of God in Christ so that believers will have the proper nutrients to grow up in Christ.

We need to build the firm foundation in Him first before we bring on the warning scriptures because we can speak of them in the wrong light and if we are not built on the foundation of Christ Himself and His finished work on the cross - it can cause us to become ship-wrecked.

Speaking the warning scriptures to those with that firm foundation in Christ is needed and they should be heeded and then they become a blessing to us and keep us centered on Christ and His life and not on the flesh with it's deceitfulness.

Walk by the flesh in this life and we will bring destruction of some sort in all our lives - from living a homosexual lifestyle to outbursts of anger, to malice, to envy, to the slandering of others in the body of Christ. They are all in the same lists together.

Let's preach and teach the love and grace of God so that we can grow up in Christ.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#458
#458
Persuaded said:
You may choose to put you hope for eternal life in your hands if you choose.
I put my in the hands God.
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I put mine in the hands of God, that's why it will never be lost.

Only if I took control of it myself would it risk being lost. I am not God.
 
T

terry_newyork_usa

Guest
#460
#460
So Colossians 1:21-23 is bogus, because it clearly says it's conditional, not a one time decision when you were 11 years old at an altar call.
"And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel."

I'll stick with the Word of God and what it says.


eternally-gratefull said:
I interpret a verse in context.

If there was a way that could stop. Paul would have told us.

My condition will not change, it will always be the same, Apart from Christ. If you think otherwise, Well, I would restudy up with is required for you to be righteous on your own apart from Gods. I think you will soon realise you too are doomed apart from Christ.
Click to expand...
 
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