Not By Works

[stonesoffire]

Ahh...I missed that post by EG! I thought I NEVER missed a post!
There is something I saw the other day too, I think it was a preacher I listened to, which I don't do often but this man just grabbed me and I listened to a lot of his videos. I was reminded of it when EG said He saved Peter even after that massive fail in faith on top of a huge leap of faith!

It's where the apostle is speaking to men who were having relations with temple prostitutes. He didn't call them unsaved, pull their hair, kick them out, or tell them they were now unsaved or never saved! He said: don't you realize who you are?? You're the temple of the Holy Spirit! (My paraphrase).

Oh, this one totally grabbed me. Love it...that last line! Just healed my heart. Was starting to feel condemned myself.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I bolded the statement that gave me goosebumps Punch, counter punch!! Love it.

Yeah, me too. Goosebumps through the whole post. I think it's sort of like when the baby jumped in Elizabeths womb at the sound of the mother of his Lords voice.

 

[TruthTalk]

But let's be careful here in saying this is not complete (though I get what you mean but wish to clarify). It is complete, but the believer has not yet personally experienced this in eternity.

Thank you, yes I am aware that I am positionally righteous (not guilty) before God; And I am seated with Christ in the heavenly places; "And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus" Eph2:6

The issue was not about my position in Christ; the issue was he said something I never said; it was a lie, and I needed to correct his false accusation.

"His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness." 2Peter1:3

 

[Meggido]

LOL. It is you who are being challenged. Jesus came to seek and save the lost, saying whosoever will. Are you a Calvinist?

Thank you I did say he came to seek and to save the lost....

I think my posts make it very clear I am no Calvie...

 

[preacher4truth]

EG, your posts more than speak for themselves, its out in the open for anyone having discernment to see..........you really just condemn yourself by your own words. I guess this is why you always number yourself among the wicked instead of the righteous...

This kind of slander needs put to an end, I'll tell you that.

 

[preacher4truth]

Thank you, yes I am aware that I am positionally righteous (not guilty) before God; And I am seated with Christ in the heavenly places; "And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus" Eph2:6

The issue was not about my position in Christ; the issue was he said something I never said; it was a lie, and I needed to correct his false accusation.

"His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness." 2Peter1:3

Lot's of lying goes on here.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

so if I read right you worked because you wanted to please God, not to maintain your salvation, right?

Well, like I said, there was more than one motivation in there, which He only showed me later.
I believe my main motivation was to truly be good ( a hungering and thirsting for righteousness inside).

But other motivations were all mixed up in there in a complete mishmash. I didn't want to give up my life. I wanted to salvage it and thought I could do it if I tried real hard. No man is going to take a car to be crushed unless he becomes convinced it has no value and can never be made to run properly! He will put it up on blocks in his driveway (much to the disgust of his neighbors) and keep trying to make it run until he gives it up.

And then, mixed in, was...wanting to be good so that men would see I was good and comment on how holy I was.

I was a mess. I don't think I could ever convey to you how bad I was when He saved me. And for many years after.

I think I was like the blind man who Jesus healed in two stages. He certainly didn't need two tries to get a miracle right, but the story speaks to me because I was like that man who had to peer intently and say, well...I think I see trees, but they can't be trees because trees don't move around like that - men do. So I'm seeing men. And that was the one man who was given sight who then was given even clearer sight because he stuck by Jesus instead of running off as the others did.

 

[PeterJens]

have no clue what your talking about, I am talking about the ones who say we can sinall we want, who says it? That was your accusation, prove it.

In the world of truth this is a straw man.
No one is saying anyone is saying sin all you want, because that would be too stupid.

No rather people are saying you can never know what it is to walk like Jesus.

Now it is not difficult to find most believers have a problem with this.

Where there is a problem is when people capitulate and believe they are stuck
in their sin, conquered and sealed. I know this problem when I find my faith dipping,
and the drudgery of peoples approach to life becomes too close and the Lords love goes
further away.

But the Lords love is eternal and His joy without boundaries, because we find that in
the love we share and dwell in, Amen.

It is always easy to take a truthful statement, make it extreme and then accuse the other
of lying, when that is not what they actually shared. And it does not matter, because we
stand with those of the Kingdom and His people, and those who are called listen to His
voice.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, like I said, there was more than one motivation in there, which He only showed me later.
I believe my main motivation was to truly be good ( a hungering and thirsting for righteousness inside).

But other motivations were all mixed up in there in a complete mishmash. I didn't want to give up my life. I wanted to salvage it and thought I could do it if I tried real hard. No man is going to take a car to be crushed unless he becomes convinced it has no value and can never be made to run properly! He will put it up on blocks in his driveway (much to the disgust of his neighbors) and keep trying to make it run until he gives it up.

And then, mixed in, was...wanting to be good so that men would see I was good and comment on how holy I was.

I was a mess. I don't think I could ever convey to you how bad I was when He saved me. And for many years after.

I think I was like the blind man who Jesus healed in two stages. He certainly didn't need two tries to get a miracle right, but the story speaks to me because I was like that man who had to peer intently and say, well...I think I see trees, but they can't be trees because trees don't move around like that - men do. So I'm seeing men. And that was the one man who was given sight who then was given even clearer sight because he stuck by Jesus instead of running off as the others did.

​I think most of us have dealt with this

 

[PeterJens]

Okay, I read the rest of your post EG.

I look at the verse about poor in spirit in a different way. You say we must become poor in spirit/spiritually bankrupt. I think we already ARE poor in spirit but just haven't realized it yet sometimes. That's how it went with me anyway. I had to keep trying to be good because I couldn't see or admit yet that I had nothing with which to accomplish being good. I just thought He had saved me and I owed it to Him to do as He said.. (There were some other motivations mixed up in that too, but the main one was a desire to actually BE good after what He'd done for me.)

This has always been an interesting phrase to me.
In Luke it appears Jesus is talking about the literal poor.
Another insight is in comparison with people who are always looking to be happy, party,
have a good time, even when everything is falling apart.

I think Jesus is saying we are always in a point of need of the Lord, His joy, His filling,
His support. We are not self sufficient or independent, but aware how much we rely on
others for help, so that we are willing to share and help those we meet, not because we are
better than them, but together we can travel as one.

 

[Seohce]

To keep any possible slander and malice down to a minimum - I will repeat what I believe about "good works" for at the very least the 20th time. I see that people are "still" mis-representing what is being said.

I have come to accept this will continue but perhaps this will help new viewers of the thread to grow in their dependence on Christ in them for life and living. He is our life! Col. 3:3.

Resting in Christ and works? What does it mean to enter into the rest of Christ? Does this mean we do nothing?

I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.

For it is God who is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He gives us both the desire and the capability. Phil. 2:13

What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.

Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.

Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations to our natural humanistic minds that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.

I won't speak for the others but as far as works go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works" of a believer.

Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.

Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15

The life of the Vine supplies the "sap" needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in His good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our spiritual warfare.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action.

Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

There is a vast difference between "us" doing things by the flesh and the Lord doing things through and in us. ( there is good looking flesh and bad looking flesh - but it is all still flesh )

We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30

Psalm 127:1 (NASB)

Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.

Notice that both groups were "building the house."

“What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.”

INTERESTING...
IT”S REALLY CONFUSING THAT WHILE THESE PEOPLE TEACHES ABOUT CHRIST LIVING IN US(john 14:23,gal2:20) ÀND WORKING IN AND THROUGH US( phil 2:13), THEY THEMSELVES REJECT THOSE SAME WORKS DONE IN AND THROUGH US AND SAY THAT THEY ARE JUST DEAD WORKS OR OF THE FLESH. A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE IS HOW THEY CONSIDER james 1:27 AS DEAD WORKS AND THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD ARE JUST WORKS AND COULD NOT SAVE US.

IF THESE WERE TRUE THEN, A BELIEVER WHO RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT TO DWELL IN HIM, IF HE OBEYS GOD’S COMMANDS, HE IS DOING IT BY HIS OWN EFFORT AND IT CANNOT SAVE HIM BECAUSE “faith alone saves.”

THEREFORE, THE BELIEVER WHO CAN ONLY DO OR OBEY THE THINGS OF GOD THRU THE GUIDANCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT CAN DO “GOOD WORKS” OR “WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS” BUT STILL NOT BE TRULY SAVED SINCE THESE WORKS ARE DEAD WORKS AND THOSE WORKS DO NOT SAVE.

ON THE OTHER HAND IF I AM A BELIEVER WHO RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT JUST LIKE THE ONE MENTIONED EARLIER, EVEN IF I SIN, I WILL NOT BE CONDEMNED BECAUSE I AM ETERNALLY SECURED OR “OSAS”.

AND WHAT IS THEIR CONCLUSION?
“YOU ARE SAVED ETERNALLY THRU FAITH ALONE” AND THIS IS NOT BY ANY SORT OF GOOD WORKS OR RIGHTEOUSNESS A BELIEVER HAS DONE.


ISN’T THIS A MOCKERY TO GOD THAT AFTER CLAIMING TO BE SAVED THRU FAITH AND IS NOW LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH WORKING IN AND THRU US, THAT THESE GOOD WORKS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS CANNOT SAVE US, BUT EVEN THOUGH IF WE SIN, WE ARE ETERNALLY SAVED THRU FAITH ALONE.

Galatians 6:7-8 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

ONLY THOSE WHO DON’T HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD WOULD DECLARE THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD AND WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARE NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Although he was a son, he learned OBEDIENCE from what he suffered and, once made PERFECT, he became the source of ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM.

James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.

Malachi 3:18 And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.

 

[preacher4truth]

In the world of truth this is a straw man.
No one is saying anyone is saying sin all you want, because that would be too stupid.

Uh-huh:

No rather people are saying you can never know what it is to walk like Jesus.

And with that you've surpassed the former "stupid sayings." Congrats!!!!

No one here is implying one can never know what it is to walk with Jesus. That's an outright lie. It is just more of the Pharisaical Luke 18:9-11 attitude on display.

 

[TruthTalk]

Lot's of lying goes on here.

Yes, "I once was blind but now I see" All of us need to be mindful not to get hooked into their lies;
the big bad wolf in sheep clothing I surmise.

 

[Meggido]

I'd like to address the idea that the other 11 disciples simply sat in the boat in fear while Peter got out.

The truth is that Peter is the ONLY disciple who was invited to come. Peter said, If you ask ME, I will be able to come out to you. And the Lord said, "Come."

Please notice that first we ask Him. And then we walk on His response in faith.

The lesson here is that we must trust His responses and not look at our circumstances like Peter did.

The key to faith though is being fully persuaded in our heart. And this comes from remembering who He is, what He has said and what He is saying in our life. And finally not letting the voice of the wind in our circumstances takes us away into doubting what He promises us.

When we graduate beyond our constant need for approval and validation from the master, he expects us to understand that we should be at one with him, so we also can walk on the storm as he did and deliver people out it....and that even means getting shipwrecked with others like Paul did....

Someone posted a very sure truth...beside the flesh show going on here[I am guilty myself of getting upset and being defensive] it seems things are lost in translation because of the different spiritual maturity levels on this board...

This will absolutely be taken the wrong way and the usual suspects[not you]will pounce on it and use it against me like they do with other things I say, but bears saying....and is a general statement not directed towards anyone...

Sooner or later you have to grow out of the comfy grace diapers and gird yourself up and walk in the authority, power, call, send and anointing that grace purchased for you...the only reason why grace is amazing is so that we become laborers in the harvest....Walking in remembrance of what grace did for you becomes instinctive as you spiritually mature and become one with him...you do not always have to check it out, remind yourself of it...you know, because it is in him we love, move and have our being....

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

​I think most of us have dealt with this

And so, some men still have that car up on blocks in the driveway (much to the disgust of their neighbors). It doesn't mean they are unsaved. It just means they are annoying to their neighbors during that time because they arrogantly refuse to see the car needs to be scrapped!

 

[stonesoffire]

When we graduate beyond our constant need for approval and validation from the master, he expects us to understand that we should be at one with him, so we also can walk on the storm as he did and deliver people out it....and that even means getting shipwrecked with others like Paul did....

Someone posted a very sure truth...beside the flesh show going on here[I am guilty myself of getting upset and being defensive] it seems things are lost in translation because of the different spiritual maturity levels on this board...

This will absolutely be taken the wrong way and the usual suspects[not you]will pounce on it and use it against me like they do with other things I say, but bears saying....and is a general statement not directed towards anyone...

Sooner or later you have to grow out of the comfy grace diapers and gird yourself up and walk in the authority, power, call, send and anointing that grace purchased for you...the only reason why grace is amazing is so that we become laborers in the harvest....Walking in remembrance of what grace did for you becomes instinctive as you spiritually mature and become one with him...you do not always have to check it out, remind yourself of it...you know, because it is in him we love, move and have our being....

I agree here Meggido, but this is Sonship in maturity. I can see why some things you are saying is getting blasted. Same as me saying I hear from the Lord and then write. Some think it's boasting, but it's not. I know they aren't my words. I'm not that smart.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And so, some men still have that car up on blocks in the driveway (much to the disgust of their neighbors). It doesn't mean they are unsaved. It just means they are annoying to their neighbors during that time because they arrogantly refuse to see the car needs to be scrapped!

It still does does not mean that those who think they have to work to maintain of keep saved have truly repented, they are still trusting in self. Not God.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I've talked enough about me. I want to hear about someone elses struggles and what they're currently working out or perplexed by or what they're struggling in trust with or what He's shown them! I don't always have as much time in here any more so I want to hear about you guys more than I want to blab about myself. Always turns into blabbing about myself though...

 

[TruthTalk]

Those of the flesh must make scripture fit the needs of the flesh, thus Judas always had a devil and never was saved in order to fit their twisted theology of OSAS.......Jesus gave power to devils to cast out devils???????????????????? .they make the bible say the opposite to sooth the flesh and its lusts therein. You can explain it 6 ways from Sunday and they will never get it because they are forever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth....they resist truth at all points....

This is a broad sweeping insult and fallacious remark - "You can explain it 6 ways from Sunday and they will never get it."Please do explain with bible verses.

Not sure if I understand your sympathy to Judas; he betrayed our Lord.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It still does does not mean that those who think they have to work to maintain of keep saved have truly repented, they are still trusting in self. Not God.

I was trusting in self to finish what was started in the Spirit and He still didn't abandon me or leave me there.