Not By Works

[Stunnedbygrace]

Epic attack this morning!
I was heading through moms bedroom to get the bags of dog poo on the deck before the trash man came. Her Doberman always jumps up and starts shrieking if I just come straight through, so I stand out in the hall and make some noise and say, Abby, I'm coming back, no bark, You want a cookie? Cookie Abby? And that wakes her up and she sits there waiting for her cookie.

So mom woke up too and began to whine that they were settled and why am I disturbing them?

I said, because the trash man is coming and you didn't get your dogs poop out and you will give me hell for not getting it out if I leave it. So I HAVE to come through here on trash days or I'll never hear the end of it!

After that, I began fuming and murdering and get this - while I was making my coffee and WHILE I had my bible in my hand!

I was murdering her that I can never please her or do anything right, I'm damned if I try to do as she wishes and I'm damned if I don't.

I couldn't stop it and my first thought was shame that I was not loving her and was sinking into such ugliness of heart. And I didn't know what to do because I was just so helpless to stop it.

So I just closed my eyes and said: Help me!

And it was like a voice whispered: not when you're acting like this He won't.

And I said, yes, yes, I'm bad, but He is good and He's IN ME, and He saves me and loves me and sheds that love abroad in my heart.

And then, it all disappeared so quickly that it cannot have been from me. The attack I mean - it wasn't from me. The response of my flesh was from me, but the attack was from the outside. And that little rot tried the same thing he always does - whispering to me that I need to be good before I run to Him for help or else He won't come to my aid.

Angry, but rejoicing too, that he didn't get away with his accusing and condemning of me and get me to try harder to be good rather than immediately calling for help.

You might have no idea how that ties into your post but to me, it does.

And when I came in here, I posted what I read (my paraphrase) when I opened my bible after He had calmed that storm.
Lord hasten to my help!
Let those be turned back because of their shame who say, Aha! Aha!
And let those who love your salvation say continually, LET GOD BE MAGNIFIED!

Now how on earth could that be where I opened my bible to unless He was helping me even more??
Satan said Aha! Aha! How dare you ask for help when you're acting so despicably?
And I said, let God be magnified!

And it all ties in to this very thread! How brilliant our God is! What a good teacher and strengthener!

 

[Stephen63]

The issue I have is the idea that we are not already saved.

Scripture writers testified to their audience, we believe better things for you. Things that accompany salvation. A portion of discipleship is the process of encouraging people of who they are in Christ now. If we believe in Christ we ARE saved. And this is a new creation reality. The old dies and the new man is here. We are reborn. Lead of the Spirit. The same power in Him in us. We are sealed with Him. Fully loved by Him. If people are waiting till the end of their lives to find out if they know God or not. There is a bigger issue here. God brought Himself into us. It's not simply about "getting life", but about having LIFE now. How will someone bear the fruit of the Spirit if they aren't confident they HAVE the Spirit?

Easy..... backsliders don't care if they have the Spirit or not.

Rebels, apostates..... they don't care.

 

[UnderGrace]

My point was the life of Charles Templeton is not how we determine truth.

For me it is a fruitless discussion to banter about,
well maybe he was not truly saved,
well maybe he had a lapse in faith but was a true believer,
well maybe he was saved but lost his salvation because he no longer believed,
well maybe he regained his faith at the end.

To me focusing on someones life as evidence of truth is a pitfall that has caused endless turmoil in the body of Christ.

I focus on Christ Jesus and his Word.

He himself denounced the reality of God, so the issue of judging the truth by his life is off the table. He said plainly that the God of the Bible can not be true because of all the suffering in the world.

 

[PeterJens]

2nd paragraph- do you keep all the standards that Jesus laid out in the Sermon on the Mount every hour of every day of every week......... if that answer is no ( it is, you don' , no one does.) then you should not be lecturing others on command keeping.

God and Christ are aware of this deception as well.

This is how a legalist talks. The objective is to find failure and bring in a projection of the
future that has not happened yet and predict it.

Thereby you literally predict slavery though your faith claim victory and freedom, you
personally do not walk in it.

gb9 repeating exactly the points I am making does not make you right, but shows your
lack of faith and belief.

Your point is people can fail to live the way Jesus teaches. Ofcourse, but the apostles
walked the way and lived to the end of their lives in this way.

What is so hard that you cannot live this way? If you have sin and failure, repent, work on
it and spend time with Christ and in fellowship and you too will find victory.

This has never been about command keeping ( a legalists type language ) but in letting love
grow and reign in your heart.

 

[Stephen63]

​

Originally Posted by Banks81

Hi,
What does "non-OSAS" mean?

The opposite of 'Once Saved Always Saved'.

Originally Posted by Banks81

I find it hard to imagine that people who believe, could suddenly one day not or rather stop believing?

Yes, most believers find that hard to believe, and so they project their own feelings about being able to lose faith onto others and say that you can not stop believing. I encounter this all the time. But the Bible very clearly warns against losing faith. Just because you or I can not imagine losing faith doesn't mean that others are the same way.

Originally Posted by Banks81

Perhaps they still believe but have strayed off their path with God and no longer make their relationship with Him the centre of their lives. Either way belief is belief...

And which makes it important to distinguish between our personal failures and distance from God within our overall belief and trust in his blood vs. making the flat out decision to no longer care about or trust in God's forgiveness. Charles Templton is a good example of the difference. He did not struggle with sin within his continuing belief in Christ. He flat out determined in his heart that the God of the Bible can not be true. That is what will cause a person to lose his salvation. The growing pains and failures within our faith in Christ do not.

Originally Posted by Banks81

...and God never takes things away from us...

Read Matthew 18:23-35


23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”



Your eyes may not see it at first because of what you have been taught, but Jesus makes it clear in the story that the man was forgiven (for real) but later had that forgiveness rescinded, and he said his Father will do the same thing to us, and that this is how it is in the kingdom. The point is, the man really was forgiven (vs.32), yet he lost that forgiveness. The failure was in his perception of what he really did receive. The Bible talks more about 'weak vs. strong faith', not so much about 'faith vs. no faith' as the church seems to only be able to view this matter of faith. Strong faith will endure to the end and be evidenced by what it does. Weak faith will more likely stumble and fall. But the point is, even weak faith solicits God's forgiveness.

Originally Posted by Banks81

#Cee, would you agree that there are a few people who have not yet received the gift of the spirit? I ask because I myself used to struggle with confidence that I have the Spirit. It took me a long time to realize I did have it and to feel confident with it... ?

That's where works come in. The Bible explains how the way we act confirms or denies the presence of the Holy Spirit in us in salvation. Those works don't earn salvation, they show the reality of it. Assurance of salvation comes from what we do. Note I said 'assurance'. Works don't secure our salvation, they assure us that we have it. Works confirm our faith, just as what Abraham and others did confirmed their faith in the promises.

Excellent post.

Had to repost it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My point was the life of Charles Templeton is not how we determine truth.

For me it is a fruitless discussion to banter about,
well maybe he was not truly saved,
well maybe he had a lapse in faith but was a true believer,
well maybe he was saved but lost his salvation because he no longer believed,
well maybe he regained his faith at the end.

To me focusing on someones life as evidence of truth is a pitfall that has caused endless turmoil in the body of Christ.

I focus on Christ Jesus and his Word.

I think God knows the answer, and we should leave it to him, and go out and make new disciples, and love our neighbor as god commanded us to do.

 

[UnderGrace]

Well I am not sure is the traditional belief at all.

However, it would seem that you think that it is the continuous action of belief that keeps us saved.

What you are not seeing is that the continuous action of belief is the EFFECT/RESULT (not yelling just amplifying ) of being born again

(Perfect tense completed with results)


I am sorry PHart but ultimately your view, takes the work of God out of the equation so to speak, and makes it all about the believer continuing in belief (self-effort) so that the believer is ultimately responsible for his/her own salvation.

I am also very sorry to say this is not the gospel and it is not very good news.

The exact same thing you started believing the day you were born again and which caused you to be born again. And just to be clear, it's not new believing. It's a continuation of the believing that started the moment you got saved.

The traditional belief among OSASer's in the church has been that the true believer can't and won't stop believing, and thus, he will be saved on the Day of Judgment, and that if you do stop believing that shows you were never 'really' saved to begin with. That's actually a very insecure salvation because you won't know if you endured to the end until the end. So you can't know if your believing is genuine until it has proven to be genuine by enduring to the very end.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

And when I came in here, I posted what I read (my paraphrase) when I opened my bible after He had calmed that storm.
Lord hasten to my help!
Let those be turned back because of their shame who say, Aha! Aha!
And let those who love your salvation say continually, LET GOD BE MAGNIFIED!

Now how on earth could that be where I opened my bible to unless He was helping me even more??
Satan said Aha! Aha! How dare you ask for help when you're acting so despicably?
And I said, let God be magnified!

And it all ties in to this very thread! How brilliant our God is! What a good teacher and strengthener!

hey stunned(bygrace)

you sure are not alone

just want to say that your conclusions are spot on. Our Savior is ALWAYS ready to save in every situation and anything that says the opposite is not of Him

hugs

 

[Stephen63]

it might be non OSAS, but it is not truth,

john said he wrote those things so we can know we have eternal life, and by this knowledge, be able to continue ur to believe,

you have it backwards, john said knowledge of a fact we have it is the basis for belief,

you claim continued believis required for the ability t keep it, which is NOT what john said.

John 3:36
​

New American Standard Bible
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

 

[preacher4truth]

My point was the life of Charles Templeton is not how we determine truth.

For me it is a fruitless discussion to banter about,
well maybe he was not truly saved,
well maybe he had a lapse in faith but was a true believer,
well maybe he was saved but lost his salvation because he no longer believed,
well maybe he regained his faith at the end.

To me focusing on someones life as evidence of truth is a pitfall that has caused endless turmoil in the body of Christ.

I focus on Christ Jesus and his Word.

If a person cannot properly convey their beliefs through a properly exegeted text, nor back their interpretation up with commentary from orthododox theologians, they will resort to other subjective and pragmatic evidences.

No, they really aren't evidences, you are correct. They are a foolishly used and unreliable source - it is reaching for validation when there is none.

None of those who preach loss of salvation have ever proven their teaching via properly exegeted Scripture, nor can they back up said teachings with any other known and orthodox authorities. When all that fails, just use an flippant illustration of an unsealed package of lasagna in the fridge, and compare that, sacrilegiously, with the sealing of the Spirit while allegedly taunting others belief in His ministry of sealing them eternally, until the day of redemption.

Wonder what it means when a person thinks the sealing is comparative to plastic packaging failures? It says a lot to me, and it isn't pretty. I think we should take the truths of Scripture more seriously, with gravity and solemnity, not with the flippancy and cynicism witnessed on this forum.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Hey...As soon as the Holy Spirit came into me i was changed...Ii danced, sang and cried, i prayed and rejoyiced in the Lord, i still do these things, i did none of them before i was saved, yes i prayed not knowing i needed to be saved, so happy God called me, so a BIG YES, a person changes straight away for we become a new creation in Christ, the old self has died, we have a new life...xox...

hey ~

people who do not believe the spiritual gifts are for today (well at least tongues as they seem to thrive on labels such as teacher but I digress), will never ever comprehend

and some will say baloney to my next statement but the veracity of it is gospel (and yes I know that will also sound foreign and perhaps blasphemous in some ears because they will interpret wrong. I speak pretty much at face value but not everyone thinks so)

so this is the statement

without fail, I can almost always know when someone is spirit filled or not. even if I disagree with what they are saying, there is still a 'connection' that the Spirit of God is witness to

I cannot dance or sing or praise and worship on top of the Bible alone, anymore than Peter could usher in 3000 souls into the kingdom of God on the day of Pentecost during his pre conversion and pre being filled with the Holy Spirit. the Holy Spirit gives LIFE and DEPTH and sinks the word right into where you live and those who deny what God wishes to give, are, sadly but quite often, hard of heart, accusatory and twist royally what is stated.

so let it reign down. I have a big Spirit of God umbrella

so, praise God, and yup you are witness yourself

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Well I am not sure is the traditional belief at all.

However, it would seem that you think that it is the continuous action of belief that keeps us saved.

What you are not seeing is that the continuous action of belief is the EFFECT/RESULT (not yelling just amplifying ) of being born again

(Perfect tense completed with results)


I am sorry PHart but ultimately your view, takes the work of God out of the equation so to speak, and makes it all about the believer continuing in belief (self-effort) so that the believer is ultimately responsible for his/her own salvation.

I am also very sorry to say this is not the gospel and it is not very good news.

One may plant, another may water, but it is GOD who causes the seed of faith to grow.

 

[1ofthem]

Hi 1ofthem,

I'm seeing it more & more, & it's mostly females doing it.

Asking questions, acting interested about learning more, and all the while they're looking for ways to accuse & attack you.

They set it up, & another member will jump in & start.

I think we have one guy doing it also.

Yeah, I noticed that with a few women from the moment I joined this site. They seem to be genuinely wanting to learn and just innocently asking questions and then either them or one of their gal pals will pounce on you. I've also seen how they try and pretend they are such good Christian ladies who are concerned about others arguing.... all the while they play both sides and sow discord among others then set back and enjoy the drama and for some reason they like to attack mostly men....

A lot of women on here are really good at manipulation and seem to enjoy it...They funny thing is they think their so sly that nobody see's what their doing.

I'm a woman so I guess they gonna pull my woman card now...Oh well, I'm just calling it like I see it...It is what it is, I guess.

But people really do need to be careful who they are taking up for and watch what others are doing because I've seen 'em pull many a people down into their little traps!

 

[7seasrekeyed]

He was correct. You? Not so much.

What we have below is an unscriptural false gospel of twisted Scriptures with no references, and twisted assumptions on the texts, taken out of context to support said false system:



Restore here is not to salvation.

You are incorrect and you are really twisting Scripture here. It's a false gospel that you are teaching and this is an unfortunate fact.

Name one theologian that has your take, that says restore here is unto salvation again, or, we could say saved again.

Provide this from one theologian that is well known and orthodox to substantiate your claim.

Now, I imagine your abused text is Galatians 6:1 (unnamed). Please don't use John Gill as a source, Stephen63 tried that and failed - Gill is Reformed and thus "osas." Just a head up for you.

The thing for everybody to understand here is that we must all be aware the Gospel of the church, adhering to the perseverance of the saints, or "osas" has always been part of the true Gospel, and has been held up by the Reformers. They have led the way in this blessed truth.



You're twisting them to your peril; 2 Peter 3:16. So be careful here, you're on the wrong track, I've shown you this above.



Please refrain, you're only adding things to Scripture that are not there.



If you don't believe that, then you're deceived. The Gospel is transforming to ALL who have believed; 2 Corinthians 3:18ff.



You don't "mean him personally" and then tell him he is "swallowing something with a nasty sharp bone in it." No, you meant him personally, that is apparent.

But I believe that is indicative of yourself, and your Scripture twisting dear, not of him or others who believe the Gospel.

Yes, please bow out and allow those who preach the Gospel to do so minus your error.

Thanks.

We don't want people believing the dangerous garbage and twisted Scripture you are conveying (which description you attempt to slather on others) and we certainly don't want you becoming angry over those who believe the truth and believe wholly in their present secured eternal salvation. That people have believed Christ to that extent certainly bothers and irritates others.

what offends you so much?

 

[Stephen63]

We need to stop back-biting others as we are only destroying ourselves.

You mean how you come up with all those phrases that say anyone who believes works must come from living faith is a works salvationist & is teaching antichrist doctrine?

You mean how you come up with all those phrases that say that being a works salvationist is as bad as being a blatent homosexual?

Maybe you ought to get out your 100 gallon jetvac & sweep around your own back door.

 

[Stephen63]

Nor will you receive any from me because it is undue. You can get your validation from the several who are disobedient to Christ.



Yes, fully aware, but contained in it was your referencing others who have rightly called you out for your repudiation of church. That includes me, so it wasn't only Magenta you were addressing. It was others as well.

You sought validation of others who share your attitude about church which is why you put it out there. I'm here to invalidate that.

Anyhow, congrats! You got pats on the back for your stance against Christ and his church of which you were seeking affirmation.



OK, so what you said was true. What I said was also. You weren't just addressing Magenta, you took a swing at those who have called you out, seeking to garner approval for your stance, and disagreements toward those whose stance is biblical.

Basically it was all carnal and divisive, not to mention your unbiblical walk.



CC isn't a church, nor are you in church or attending church by typing on a keyboard in a forum.

You will stand before Christ and give an account of this, though, you think you're justified and that you will not.

I take it from the many likes you got here for your stance against Christ's bride, rebellion to His decree of assembly that many here as well do not attend church either and/or heartily support those who publicly rebel against the assembly.

That is shameful.

No one should be arguing theology on a forum who doesn't place themselves under the authority of a local church, because frankly they are behavioral heretics and hypocrites.

I will gladly continue on this stance even in the face of those who say they love Jesus and hate his bride, no matter how unpopular this biblical stance becomes among professing believers.

Just another reputation destroyer trying to muzzle out what he didn't like posted.

 

[UnderGrace]

All I can say this is very true and sad. Their arguments are spurious and a denial of scripture.

I do believe that we stand on the word of God (properly exegeted) and find there an assurance of salvation.

Amen!!

If a person cannot properly convey their beliefs through a properly exegeted text, nor back their interpretation up with commentary from orthododox theologians, they will resort to other subjective and pragmatic evidences.

No, they really aren't evidences, you are correct. They are a foolishly used and unreliable source - it is reaching for validation when there is none.

None of those who preach loss of salvation have ever proven their teaching via properly exegeted Scripture, nor can they back up said teachings with any other known and orthodox authorities. When all that fails, just use an flippant illustration of an unsealed package of lasagna in the fridge, and compare that, sacrilegiously, with the sealing of the Spirit while allegedly taunting others belief in His ministry of sealing them eternally, until the day of redemption.

Wonder what it means when a person thinks the sealing is comparative to plastic packaging failures? It says a lot to me, and it isn't pretty. I think we should take the truths of Scripture more seriously, with gravity and solemnity, not with the flippancy and cynicism witnessed on this forum.

 

[Grace777x70]

To keep the malice and slander down to a minimum - I have never said that a works-based salvationists is as bad as being a blatent homosexual.

That is a complete lie and it is a great example of why not to interact with those that continue to speak deceitfully to "twist" what is said to make it "appear" to be something else. Rom. 16:17

I always have said that malice and the slandering of others in the body of Christ is no different than living the homosexual lifestyle as they are all in the same lists and are works of the flesh.

 

[PennEd]

Are you saying they're going to Hell?

It's something that "you" can get saved by simply accepting Christ & do absolutely nothing else, & "we" repent of our sins, accept Christ as Savior & Lord, & still go to Hell because we "try" & "strive" to keep the commands of Jesus?!?

Saw this post yesterday just after reading much of Galatians. Those that want to mix "works" and "strivings" should fear this passage. I know Paul is talking specifically about circumcision here, but the whole book deals with altering the simple Gospel message, that Jesus Christ died for our sin, and rose to life to prove those that are in Him will also have eternal life.

Galatians 5New King James Version (NKJV)

Christian Liberty

5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,[a]and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Love Fulfills the Law

7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!
13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

I go back and in forth in my mind if those that think they have to "try" or "work" IN ADDITION to Christ's Blood, to be saved really are saved. And of course whether I think they are or not is nothing. It is the Lord that matters.

I truly fear for them. No condescension intended. We love You Lord. Pour Your Spirit out on all our hearts, and let us always walk by Your Spirit, in love, to all. In Jesus Name.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Yeah, I noticed that with a few women from the moment I joined this site. They seem to be genuinely wanting to learn and just innocently asking questions and then either them or one of their gal pals will pounce on you. I've also seen how they try and pretend they are such good Christian ladies who are concerned about others arguing.... all the while they play both sides and sow discord among others then set back and enjoy the drama and for some reason they like to attack mostly men....

A lot of women on here are really good at manipulation and seem to enjoy it...They funny thing is they think their so sly that nobody see's what their doing.

I'm a woman so I guess they gonna pull my woman card now...Oh well, I'm just calling it like I see it...It is what it is, I guess.

But people really do need to be careful who they are taking up for and watch what others are doing because I've seen 'em pull many a people down into their little traps!

there are various forms of manipulation as I am pretty sure you know

women are adept at manipulation as we can even see from reading the Bible...they smile in your face and look straight into your eyes kind of putting off guard. they especially will compliment men because men are susceptible to that

I'm an oddball. I do not do that, most likely having been on the receiving end of a master manipulator

this does not mean I have arrived...it only means it is obvious to me what is going on but no point in pointing it out as reinforcements will show up and not necessarily those who can pinch themselves if you know what I mean

these are STRONGHOLDS that will become more fortified in the lives of those who have them as they appear to believe that we do NOTHING and Jesus does it all

yup. Jesus did it all to the point of sweating blood and we do zip, nada, nothing...we just arrive by osmosis

men, often exhibit straight out manipulation...as in shouting, hitting, or calling names (intimidation)...to FORCE their will, also quite apparent from this thread; in fact it is a wonderful example of what the Bible calls works of the flesh which deteriorates into....'witchcraft'

I would actually go so far as to state their are predators desiring to shut down the work of the Holy Spirit. God knows them and they are His concern.

Galatians 5:19-21King James Version (KJV)

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5

now this is extremely offensive to some, but others know exactly what I am talking about

please note I do not call names and I do not attack people but some of my posts are interpreted as attacks because people are offended.