Not By Works

[Meggido]

Original Poster:
"Better check your history here p4t...Early Christianity was in fact influenced heavily by Platoism...."


Hi Preacher, the only documentation I could find of the influence of Plato on Christianity were from the non-believing critics of Christianity; smarter people than I could likely find some thin connections between our Church Fathers and Plato but the purpose of these unmerited claims is to discredit Christianity. What do you think the Apostle Paul would say to the people on this forum/thread who would diminish Christ work on the Cross and make heretical claims that our faith is some how connected to Plato - foolish and harmful mistake; ye' men of

Sermon on Mars Hill
Acts 17:22-31​

"So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.
The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; [SUP]25 [/SUP]nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; [SUP]26 [/SUP]and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, [SUP]27 [/SUP]that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; [SUP]28 [/SUP]for in Him we live and move and [SUP][b][/SUP]exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.
Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, [SUP]31[/SUP]because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

You did not dig far enough...bu thanks for the effort...It is also a travesty you post the truth and missed it's entirety with eyes wide open...

 

[Meggido]

Wouldn't that be obvious since Plato died long before the aforementioned were ever born?

And his teaching, just like Jesus' teaching, survive to this day...

 

[NoNameMcgee]

the follow up to the last teaching

(for those who listened yesterday if/when you have time)


https://youtu.be/rrWryw6sFQk

 

[TruthTalk]

And why is that FAKE NEWS?

Plato died in in 348 or 347 BC.

This was an obvious joke, the Apostle Paul did not drink cappuccinos. Sorry if this offended you, I will tone down the humor.

"A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones." Prov17:22

 

[TruthTalk]

And why is that FAKE NEWS?

Plato died in in 348 or 347 BC.

Follow up post:

Original Poster:
"Better check your history here p4t...Early Christianity was in fact influenced heavily by Platoism...."


Hi Preacher, the only documentation I could find of the influence of Plato on Christianity were from the non-believing critics of Christianity; smarter people than I could likely find some thin connections between our Church Fathers and Plato but the purpose of these unmerited claims is to discredit Christianity. What do you think the Apostle Paul would say to the people on this forum/thread who would diminish Christ work on the Cross and make heretical claims that our faith is some how connected to Plato - foolish and harmful mistake.

 

[Meggido]

Originally Posted by preacher4truth

Oh, I'm waiting to check "my history here" while waiting for you to document it, historically. Then I can really "check" history.

Documentation. Go get it. And then apply this to those who were accused by name with further documentation.

All we have thus far are accusations. Unsubstantiated accusations attached to names.

If you cannot provide this in documented detail, as well as those of others, said accusations will then be considered slander and false. Since you claim these to be true, you should have ready proof.

You've gone on to support this, now provide literal proof of these accusations.

Notice you left off the most important part of my post....this proves you have a closed mind...just because you think something is untrue does not make it untrue...now to be the spiritual adult here, let me show my entire post to you versus the proof-text you did on my post, so people can judge for themselves....notice the bold parts please

Better check your history here p4t...Early Christianity was in fact influenced heavily by Platoism....Of Christianity, notable followers were in fact, St. Augustine, Aquinas, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and few others...

I think willy went a bit past the mandate here....but you can google christian platonists and find credible references and facts that the above church fathers were very heavily influenced by Platoism... I cannot find anything on Calvin, Spurgeon or others and that might be where willy went past the mandate...

Here are some links that have other links to prove the point....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopla...d_Christianity

Perhaps the best record is this one:

http://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/cp.htm<<<<his list links to the historical records.


I also suppose you would outright deny that when Paul preached at Mars Hill, he was not quoting two Greek Poets in Acts 17.28 which is taken from 2 poems/hymns written by 2 Greek men to Zeus...1 an astronomer and poet and the other a Greek Stoic...and were most likely...Aratus and Cleanthes

Christian Platonism is what birthed Gnostic doctrine and was rapidly invading the Early Church in the 1-4 centuries

Gnostics originated in Alexandria and mingled with the early Christian church in the 1st century....this is why John sent his 3 letters out to the churches because the Church as becoming heavily influenced by syncretism.....This is why he wrote 1 John 2.19 and why that verse has zero to do with salvation or eternal security and should no be used as a bully wielding billy club to judge salvation...by saying with arrogance....oh that person, they were never saved to begin with....John knew those who had invaded the church were not believers....he was warning other churches about Platonic and Gnostic influences that are the spirit of antichrist...


For the record, I am also available if you would like me to come to your next cookout and cut your steak, separate your veggies and taters and get your favorite sippee cup filled with Juice for you as well....


Now put up or shut up about this....because your closed mind to all thing Calvin is limiting your otherwise great wisdom on discerning false teachings...

 

[stonesoffire]

hi EG,

My understanding is that John writing was two fold.
Both pastoral and polemic.

Polemic being addressing the false teachings of the Gnostics and Cerinthianism.

So refuting the heresy and reiterating the truth is also part of the pastoral.
If believers were to fall for such heresy then this could affect church unity.
If believers are able to distinguish between heresy and truth then the unity as John talks about would be maintained.

I am sure John knew that a persons behaviour was as a result their beliefs

Get the foundations right then everything else should follow.

Someone needs to go to chat and tell them these things. Was listening before coming in. lol

 

[stonesoffire]

I am sure they had many false teachers in those days,

as I study JKohn, one of the things I see is theyt he is really concerned with letting people know how they can KNOW they are saved. And how they must hold on to the fact theat they are eternally secure.

As with any church, people had to wonder why these people who were a part of the church, appeared to be on fire for God. And walked for some time as a brother or sister in christ all of a sudden left. And because against the church and against christ himself.

To me, that is the question John is answering.

Not only for their day, but for our day, I have known people like this, and wondered myself. How can you go from one extreme to another.

Gnosticism may have been one great heresy John was fighting, but i think as with most all things against christ, what can be said about one heresy can also be said about others heresys which basically make the same claim.

ie, Gnostics deny christ

Yet so do Jews

So does Islam

So do pagans

so do atheists and agnostics.

Does the message fit?

if a person was a member of a church, and seemed like they walked with Gd and as our brother and sister. And all of a sudden, left to join one of these groups and denied that jesus was the christ, would it fit them as well?

They all deny jesus is christ

so it would fit them all.

Maybe they just sat to hear and then rejected what they heard, then left? There are always those who want to hear the "newest" thing.

I still don't understand Gnosticism but I haven't really searched it out either.

 

[dcontroversal]

That is the essence of the false doctrine of "saved by works". It comes in many flavors and colors but it's core belief remains unchanged and it is a direct violation of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection. It is always those that think our loving Father throws His beloved children into hell that come up with this doctrine.


All religions - including the religion of Christianity ( as there is a religion like this that tries to mimic the life of Christ ) - are really manifesting that they are eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which has been set lose in this earth by Adam's transgression.

They are basing their life on what they do or don't do. They are attempting to establish their own righteousness by what they do or don't do instead of the finished work of Christ.

Good works in order to maintain being saved are a prime example of this.

We see the "descriptions" in the words and actions of Jesus and in the epistles of what the true Christian life looks like when Christ's life and His fruit are being manifested.

The religion of Christianity then takes these "descriptions" and tries to "dictate" to the believers the life of Christ or the fruit of the Spirit into being.

In essence they are trying to mimic or duplicate the life and fruit of Christ and at the same time "demanding" that others do the same thing or else they are not saved.

The true Christian life is Christ Himself joined as one spirit with us manifesting His love, His grace, His life in and through us. It is His fruit - without Him we can do nothing.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will be with us forever. ( John 14:16 ) Jesus is NOT a liar.

All works-based - works-righteousness belief systems ( including the religion of Christianity ) have this as their core essence and it really nullifies the true grace of God from operating in our lives like it should.

This is the "why" behind when people say we must do "good works". That is what the fruit brings behind the work-for-salvation mindset and to maintain and create righteousness.

The reality is - as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror - we are transformed by the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ will manifest itself in the doing of good works as the fruit of being in union with Him.

We do good works because it is a fruit of being in union with Christ not "to be saved. " Christ alone is our Savior.

Preach and teach the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and Christians will have the proper nutrients to walk out what already is within them - which is Christ in us - the hope of glory.

We live by His life in us now - Christ Himself is that tree of life. Notice it is not the "knowledge of the tree of life" ( like it is with the other tree - the knowledge of good and evil ). We live by His life now.

Amen brother I agree.....

 

[stonesoffire]

Yes, I have noticed this about the church with this recent influx of H-grace teaching. That teaching excuses unrepentant, even willful sin and claims immunity by the blood of Christ while condemning everyone else who doesn't agree with them that grace is a licence to show up at the Judgment without any works. Even those in the church that aren't officially H-grace have traces of this 'sin doesn't matter' teaching in their doctrines. It's overtaking the church. I suspected it was a demonic spirit at work spreading this thinking, but now I'm convinced it's a spirit at work in the church--the spirit of anti-christ. And I believe this is the end-times work of the spirit of anti-christ preparing the way for the Man of Perdition. I also believe that the day is not far away when people like myself who speak out against it will be martyred. The rabid dog resistance I meet in the church about this subject is showing me that.

A question to consider. Does the Elijah spirit have to rise before the actual return of the Lord? I can see what you are saying to the world, but not the church. Perhaps you are an evangelist at heart?

When I say church, I mean those who are members of His body. We can't see unless we are seeing into the spiritual realm, who are actually His. Inside.

 

[TruthTalk]

The true grace of God makes us labor more then others when we are operating from the true grace of God and not from religious zeal. There is a vast difference between the 2 although outwardly they can "look the same".

God's grace in Christ =

1 Corinthians 15:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

We can build things by the flesh or by the grace of God in us which births His good works within us and it is these good works that He has prepared for us to walk in. Eph. 2:10

It is also these desires that He has birthed within us where we can ask whatsoever we desire when we pray and it shall come to pass.

Good Morning Grace777, the love of Jesus is a huge motivator, just want to add to what you have made clear not take away. Is there repentance, is there confession of sin, don't we partake of the "Great Commission" everyday, yes. But where is boasting and why cannot Christians see the difference; when I was a new believer in Jesus Christ our Church would not let you take part in any leadership rolls until you were a member for at least one year, the reason for this was pride.

Jeremiah9:23,24

This is what the Lord says:

23 “Let not the wise boast of their wisdom
or the strong boast of their strength
or the rich boast of their riches,

24 but let the one who boasts boast about this:
that they have the understanding to know me,
that I am the Lord, who exercises kindness,
justice and righteousness on earth,
for in these I delight,”


True Gospel

 

[stonesoffire]

Yes, I have noticed this about the church with this recent influx of H-grace teaching. That teaching excuses unrepentant, even willful sin and claims immunity by the blood of Christ while condemning everyone else who doesn't agree with them that grace is a licence to show up at the Judgment without any works. Even those in the church that aren't officially H-grace have traces of this 'sin doesn't matter' teaching in their doctrines. It's overtaking the church. I suspected it was a demonic spirit at work spreading this thinking, but now I'm convinced it's a spirit at work in the church--the spirit of anti-christ. And I believe this is the end-times work of the spirit of anti-christ preparing the way for the Man of Perdition. I also believe that the day is not far away when people like myself who speak out against it will be martyred. The rabid dog resistance I meet in the church about this subject is showing me that.

And you are totally wrong in this assessment of the body of Christ. The Lord knows who are His...He Himself places us in Him, and seals us..chooses us with His stamp of royalty and begins the process of Sonship.

You don't really understand the full salvation of the believer. And it's not of us...never will be...is all the work of Holy Spirit. He doesn't really need your help to move the process along. And it's not the same for all. Slow or fast...according to His will.

You really need to stop the judging and look to the world with your message of sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe they just sat to hear and then rejected what they heard, then left? There are always those who want to hear the "newest" thing.

I still don't understand Gnosticism but I haven't really searched it out either.

i think it goes much deeper than this, if someone comes in and sits for a few Services, people probably would not ask why they left and became a Denyer of christ, i think these were regular members who all of a sudden left. And when people saw them again, they were denying christ (one could easily say they lost their faith) otherwise, why would people be questioning or being afraid of it?

Gnostics believes they could sin all they want, because their bodies were dead, Thus they could sin all the want, and professed this openly, Their spirit however was alive, and could not sin, so they were ok, They also placed the gaining of knowledge above all other things. Hence the term Gnosis (knowledge)

what you see is workers trying to force all of Johansson letters to talk against this, in an attempt to deny what HJohn really said about people who were a practicing member of the church, who had fallen and becomes against christ. Or no longer BELIEVED in jesus as the messiah or christchild, come to take away their sin.

Gnostic were not the only false teachers in the NT church who got people to walk away and deny CHrist, Jews did this also. As well as other religions, And I am sure some people just tried this church thing out as a new club, and after being in it for awhile,. Decided it was not for them, so they too left.

The thing is, John does not say what group they were, He just tells us what they did, and what they became (antichrist) so to try to force Gnostics only in the passage is not only bad hermeneutics, but bad interpretation.

 

[Rosemaryx]

the follow up to the last teaching

(for those who listened yesterday if/when you have time)


https://youtu.be/rrWryw6sFQk

Just settling down now to watch it while I have my dinner...Not sure if I will be back so quick to comment lol after yesterday ...I have just got up to the bit about What is the Gospel, and not using what is already stated that it is the good news, my ears are open, I will pray for ears to hear...xox...

 

[Grace777x70]

Maybe they just sat to hear and then rejected what they heard, then left? There are always those who want to hear the "newest" thing.

I still don't understand Gnosticism but I haven't really searched it out either.

There are a few different views the gnostics had - one being as someone already mentioned - they didn't believe Jesus had come in the flesh. They also didn't believe they had any sins. 1 John chapter 1 talks to these false ideas

The natural humanistic , religiously taught mind of man cannot see the spiritual truths of the realities of the new creation in Christ.

It will constantly be trying to refute the new inner man created in righteousness and holiness and it will be complete foolishness to it and "appear" to be gnostic.

This is where they come up with having to "maintain" their salvation for going to be with the Lord.

One of the reasons gnostics were birthed is because of the truth the apostles were talking about in the new birth in Christ - the new man circumcised with the hand of God in separating the flesh from the inner man in Christ...aka the circumcision of Christ.

The natural mind of man took over and created their own "reality" - apart from Christ.

This isn't even remotely close to true believers in Christ. Everything to do with the new creation is because we are "in Christ".

Paul talked about the true believer being in Christ and Christ being in them in some form 140X times in his letters.

 

[stonesoffire]

some perceive that Jesus said> lou, lou, skip to me-lou, through the pearly gates because I did it all for you, and many will enter in. Rather than strive (agonize in the Greek), to enter in, for few be that find it...they seem to have everything completely backwards in the text,,,,why did Jesus say "agonize"? because crucifying the flesh is much suffering, but by doing so one ceases from sin, said Peter.....................be blessed in the narrow way

To enter the gates with the glory OF THE LORD upon oneself is not skip to my lou...

the jesting is not righteous. Ok to joke but not of this.

 

[stonesoffire]

I just looked at what syncretism means.

My conclusion would be that faith...substance in the spiritual realm which God is pleased with and moves His hand to us for receiving the end of faith...is greater than any other religious way...or even their symbols.

He outshines the devil in every way!

Just simplistic but that's me.

 

[dcontroversal]

I'm pretty sure you have agreed that true saving faith will have works attached. But then you judge me as a works salvationist if I say the same thing. Stop and ask yourself why you do that.

I've made it abundantly clear that I do not believe works earn salvation but rather works are the 'natural' outcome of the person who has justifying faith, just as you have said the same thing. If my plain words about what I believe about works not being able to earn salvation can't be seen by you, how could you possibly see what I'm trusting in in the hidden place of my heart? Think about it.

Why are you vehemently defending the person who claims to have faith but has no works to validate that faith as being real?

Because you teach you can lose it or must maintain it.....both equal a works based ideology.....no matter how it is twisted, sliced and diced.....

 

[stonesoffire]

It's kind of odd that Abraham came from Ur and had to have heard pagan beliefs. Yet that didn't stop the Lord from speaking to him and choosing to use him. Then gives him the privilege of being the father of faith.

 

[dcontroversal]

There are a few different views the gnostics had - one being as someone already mentioned - they didn't believe Jesus had come in the flesh. They also didn't believe they had any sins. 1 John chapter 1 talks to these false ideas

The natural humanistic , religiously taught mind of man cannot see the spiritual truths of the realities of the new creation in Christ.

It will constantly be trying to refute the new inner man created in righteousness and holiness and it will be complete foolishness to it and "appear" to be gnostic.

This is where they come up with having to "maintain" their salvation for going to be with the Lord.

One of the reasons gnostics were birthed is because of the truth the apostles were talking about in the new birth in Christ - the new man circumcised with the hand of God in separating the flesh from the inner man in Christ...aka the circumcision of Christ.

The natural mind of man took over and created their own "reality" - apart from Christ.

This isn't even remotely close to true believers in Christ. Everything to do with the new creation is because we are "in Christ".

Paul talked about the true believer being in Christ and Christ being in them in some form 140X times in his letters.

and the word "in" speaks volumes from the Greek..........amen for the truth....another word when properly understood that supports the aspect of eternal security.....!