Not By Works

PHart · Sep 17, 2017

Offense is in the eye of the beholder.

You folks should learn from mailmandan. We don't agree yet he is perhaps the most charitable opponent I've ever encountered. He's smart, thoughtful, and honest. I have good, edifying discussions with him. He's not a brute. That's the bottom line. Brutes are jerks. Jerks are not good people. Don't be one and you won't have any occasion to take offense from what I said.

PHart · Sep 17, 2017

PHart said:

This is key here, p4t.

Dogmatic, angry jerks are no fun. They epitomize the spirit of the Pharisee.

dcontroversal · Sep 17, 2017

preacher4truth said:

AMEN......to me what is sickening is to say God is weak and cannot keep one saved or that HE needs our help to keep ourselves saved....what a slap that must be to JESUS....NO JESUS....you cannot save me to the uttermost and keep my by your power....I must ASSIST you and KEEP myself saved because you are weak and cannot keep ALL of your promises you have made in your word......utter disgust!

UnderGrace · Sep 17, 2017

I am trying to follow your line of reasoning here, and I will admit am having some troubles.

I only want to speak on salvific faith

So if salvific faith is a gift what is the object of this gift of faith

We believe or have faith in/upon something?

PHart said:

But he does extend it to everyone. It's just that most choose to not believe what God's gift of 'knowing' (see Hebrews 11:1) has shown them to be true and so they reject the gift of faith and do not retain it in believing and are lost. The testimony of the Holy Spirit in the world is how faith (the ability to know the gospel you can't see is true) comes to all people so they can believe what the power of faith has shown them to be true and be saved. Some people hold fast the testimony of the Holy Spirit in believing, while most reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit and do not retain that testimony in themselves:

It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself (he retains it in believing); the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. (1 John 5:6,9-10 NASB)

This gives meaning to the Bible exhortations to retain and hold fast (that is, believe) the word of the gospel. Only people who hold fast onto the gospel message in believing will be saved on the Day of Judgment. They are saved now, that's not in dispute. But to remain saved and pass through the coming Judgment safely they must continue to hold fast in the believing they began on the first day:.

"23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful" (Hebrews 10:23 NASB)

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

"He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:22-23 NASB)

"Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." (Hebrews 3:6 NASB)

"14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (Hebrews 3:14 NASB)

"9Anyone who goes too far (thrusting the word of the gospel behind them) and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

"22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:22 NASB)

Some say you'll always believe because it's God's believing in you, not yours. No, it's God's faith in you, we do the trusting/believing in response to the testimony of faith that God has placed into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, if we so choose to believe and keep believing what God has shown us to be true by the supernatural gift of faith.

The free gift is the ability to believe, but the believing part is our responsibility. But even in that God provides loads of grace and encouragement to continue in our believing. But the bottom line as evidenced by the passages above is we are to continue to believe in order to continue to have the promise of deliverance and salvation on the Day of Wrath.

And you will find no passage, or even the hint, that the 'work' of believing is somehow you or I trying to work our way into the kingdom in a works gospel. What you will find are passages of scripture that clearly show that believing is in fact the very thing that you must do, and continue to do, in order to receive the kingdom, and which is in very stark contrast to working or earning our way into the kingdom through our works of righteousness.

PHart · Sep 17, 2017

dcontroversal said:

He needs you believing. He doesn't do your believing for you. He gives the faith to do your believing through, but he does not do your believing for you. Note the 1 John passage I cited a few post ago.

dcontroversal said:

His sure promises are for those who believe, not for those who don't believe or have stopped believing. We see from 1 John 5 that it is OUR responsibility to respond to his promises in faith in order to secure those sure promises which can not fail us.

What a slap in the face it is to Jesus to go back to unbelief after having received his forgiveness:

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THEFURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29 NASB)

(Remember, verse 10 shows us that the 'sanctification' being spoken about here is the sanctification of salvation. Context, context, dcon.)

UnderGrace · Sep 17, 2017

While you were responding to dcon, I am really wondering now how do you define "faith" and "belief"?

PHart said:

He needs you believing. He doesn't do your believing for you. He gives the faith to do your believing through, but he does not do your believing for you. Note the 1 John passage I cited a few post ago.

His sure promises are for those who believe, not for those who don't believe or have stopped believing. We see from 1 John 5 that it is OUR responsibility to respond to his promises in faith in order to secure those sure promises which can not fail us.

What a slap in the face it is to Jesus to go back to unbelief after having received his forgiveness:

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THEFURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29 NASB)

(Remember, verse 10 shows us that the 'sanctification' being spoken about here is the sanctification of salvation. Context, context, dcon.)

preacher4truth · Sep 17, 2017

PHart said:

Actually it's in the eye of Scripture and what you've done is sow discord, cause division, propagate hate and offer slanderous gossip. I called you on it, and you're whining about it and continuing to do the same.

And now name calling as well. Quite callow behavior on your part, I might add.

Now as to the charitable piece? But of course you'd enjoy the dialog much more if you could slander, gossip, sow discord, teach false doctrine and cause division without being called out for doing so. If called on it, to you, the person isn't being charitable. You know, "charitable" like you in your post meant to slander others. Quite hypocritical behavior...

Oh, and for the record, I'm not offended by your slander and divisiveness, it's your practice on this forum. Now, God and His Word may have something to say about that, but it is obvious to me you have no problem slandering others in the sight of God.
Now, if you have any more names to call me, some more discord to sow, something to say to gossip and cause division, you can get your last word in now.

preacher4truth · Sep 17, 2017

PHart said:

You slandered the persons, and, there are two sides to your story so I don't buy your story wholly given your divisive behavior here. A change of forum doesn't make a change in ones behavior: you're the same person here you were there. That said certainly you did the name calling, sowing discord, causing division there as you do here.

So...you're simply carrying the baton passed to you to sow discord, cause division, name call, and slander Calvinists. You're extending that carnal behavior, continuing its practice, but this seems to be who you are.

dcontroversal · Sep 17, 2017

PHart said:

AGAIN...you push dogma void of context....and it states clearly we are SANCTIFIED forever....For by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified.

And the context is NOT losing salvation.....the context is directed at THOSE who count the blood of JESUS a common ordinary BASE THING.....

AS long as you chunk context, verb tense and who it is actually addressing you will continue to miss the mark.....and your view makes a mockery of JESUS, his blood, his sacrifice, calls him a liar, makes him out to be weak and inept and is slap in the face to all who have faith.....a dogma straight from the pit itself.....!

dcontroversal · Sep 17, 2017

UnderGrace said:

His view of faith does not measure up to the bible's view of faith, the source and the promised completion of said faith...his thinly veiled working for dogma is as false and blatant as one who states clearly that they save themselves.....don't by it for one second.....

PHart · Sep 17, 2017

UnderGrace said:

And that is the key to understanding this issue--the difference between 'faith' and 'believing'.

Faith is the ability to know that something is true that you can not otherwise know is true, because you can't see it (Hebrews 11:1). Faith is a noun. It's a thing. It's the 'knowing' in knowing something is true. The Holy Spirit is what gives this knowing, this ability to know the gospel really is true. Man has no capacity whatsoever on his own to know the gospel is really true. That's why faith is a gift given to man.

Believing is what we then do in response to the revelation, the knowing, the faith, that the gospel really is true. Believing is placing your trust in what you now know to be true through God's gift of faith to know the gospel is true. Believing is the verb action--the trusting--that follows the noun, faith.

I know this is confusing because 'faith' and 'believing' kind of get interchanged with each other in how we talk. The best way to understand the difference is faith is the ability to know something is true. Believing is the trusting you then do in response to what you now know to be true that you couldn't know was true before.

It is the trusting part that solicits God's declaration of right standing with him, not the knowing part alone. Simply knowing the gospel is true is not enough. Trusting/believing in what you know to be true is what saves. Faith is simply the vehicle through which we can then be able to believe and be saved. Faith by itself can not save a flea. Only putting your trust, your believing, in what you have been shown is true saves.

PHart · Sep 17, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Yes, the sanctification that you receive when you believe in the gospel does not have to be redone. It lasts forever. That's why we are exhorted to hang onto it. It can't fail.

Rosemaryx · Sep 17, 2017

UnderGrace said:

Thank you UG...1 Peter 5:10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

...Also from Isaiah that comes to mind is when God says Do not fear, for I AM with you, I AM your God, I will hold you up with My Righteous right hand

...I must say how healing Scripture is, how it drowns out the voice of the evil one, there is POWER in the name of Jesus...Thank you for the Scripture you posted, I feel it...xox...

dcontroversal · Sep 17, 2017

FAITH
pistis: faith, faithfulnessOriginal Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness

Believe

pisteuó: to believe, entrust

Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

Do not buy into this lie that one must REMAIN to stay saved.....JESUS BEGINS, FINISHES and COMPLETES the good work of faith began in us....

To say other wise is to say that JESUS will not finish and cannot complete the work of faith he began in us....it is a lie from the pit, denies the power of GOD, makes JESUS out o be inept and unable to complete his mission....

dcontroversal · Sep 17, 2017

PHart said:

I do not have to hand on to anything I am in the Father's HAND, in the hand of Christ, sealed by his SPIRIT, saved to the uttermost and KEPT BY HS POWER.....

and you wonder why we all say you push a working for café blend dogma.....

What religious denomination do you belong to?

PHart · Sep 17, 2017

dcontroversal said:

And the context plainly says sanctified people (saved people--see vs. 10) have nothing to look forward to but the condemnation of the enemies of God. That's hardly still being saved. If they were still saved they would be rescued from the coming wrath:

"10and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:10 NASB)

So we see, if the author of Hebrews was talking about the punishment of a person who remains a son of God they would not be going to be suffering the punishment of the enemies of God because Jesus' blood rescues the sons from the wrath of God . So it's obvious they have lost the blood of Jesus to their account (which is what vs. 26 says anyway). The context plainly says the sanctified, saved person who tramples on the blood of Christ in a return to the world is going to suffer the wrath of God given to the enemies of God, not the sons of God. They do not remain a son of God for going back to the world in unbelief. They lose the protection of the blood of Christ in salvation. This most certainly is talking about salvation. Context, context, dcon...

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THEFURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29 NASB)

dcontroversal · Sep 17, 2017

PHart said:

And the context plainly says sanctified people (saved people--see vs. 10) have nothing to look forward to but the condemnation of the enemies of God. That's hardly still being saved. If they were still saved they would be rescued from the coming wrath:

"10and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:10 NASB)

So we see, if the author of Hebrews was talking about the punishment of a person who remains a son of God they would not be going to be suffering the punishment of the enemies of God because Jesus' blood rescues the sons from the wrath of God . So it's obvious they have lost the blood of Jesus to their account (which is what vs. 26 says anyway). The context plainly says the sanctified, saved person who tramples on the blood of Christ in a return to the world is going to suffer the wrath of God given to the enemies of God, not the sons of God. They do not remain a son of God for going back to the world in unbelief. They lose the protection of the blood of Christ in salvation. This most certainly is talking about salvation. Context, context, dcon...

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THEFURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29 NASB)

It is not talking about losing salvation.....end of story......and the whole book of Hebrews is directed at those who want to sell out and go back under an inferior way...WAKE up....your erroneous view that one can lose or forfeit salvation blinds you to many truths....God deals with his children through chastisement...not casting them away....you really should take a moment and pray for wisdom, open your eyes and start over with biblical salvation.....the salvation that is actually taught in the bible.

Rosemaryx · Sep 17, 2017

Hi all...Gosh I have had a few days of being bumpy, but not in my faith...A few weeks back I was shaky,thinking one minute I was saved, then do something wrong and I felt condemned, that`s untill the word of God was written on my heart

...It has just dawned on me through these pass 2 days that the evil one has been condemning me, bringing me back into depression, but I believe this is happening because he wants me to question my eternity with God but it`s not worked out that way because Jesus has told me that He will never leave me nor forsake me, I am adopted , I am sealed, I am in the Palm of my Fathers hand, I can not jump out of His hand because I am sealed...To be honest, I do not want to worry myself thinking I could lose my salvation because Jesus said Do not worry, Do not be afraid, He has bought us with His precious blood, why on earth should one go worrying about losing it unless they are insecure and have not truly come to the knowledge of our beautiful Saviour...I want to spend the rest of my life that God gives me to breath praising His Holy name, that`s where I am in my walk with our Lord, I believe Him when He says I am sealed, wow such comfort, so many beautiful Scriptures to be seen, don`t be insecure looking for those warnings, they are frightful, but I believe only for those who are not walking with our Lord, and another thing I have learned, God chastises us when we ignore Him, yes there are consequences to pay, but He still has us in the palm of His hand, He is God, He does not lie like us...xox...

PHart · Sep 17, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Believe what you want about holding on, but you're so clearly in defiance of these plainly worded passages that I can't believe you would be so dogmatic about your view:

"23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful" (Hebrews 10:23 NASB)

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

"He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:22-23 NASB)

"Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." (Hebrews 3:6 NASB)

"14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (Hebrews 3:14 NASB)

"9Anyone who goes too far (thrusting the word of the gospel behind them) and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

"22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:22 NASB)

dcontroversal said:

...through faith, your continued believing. You keep leaving the last part of Peter's quote off:

"an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:4-5 NASB)

You have the sure and unshakable promise of deliverance on the Day of Salvation through your continued believing.

dcontroversal said:

The wonder is how Christians can call their believing and trusting in Christ a 'working for' dogma. But that is the sad place at which the church has come to in these end times.

dcontroversal said:

I don't belong to a denomination. I read my Bible like a Berean and form my doctrine that way. I accept any denomination's belief, any doctrine, that lines up with the Bible. If part of something a particular church or movement says is true, I accept it and toss out whatever is not true. So I'm not denominational.

God taught me a long time ago that what counts is that you walk in the fruit of the Spirit. That's what this is ALL about (Galatians 5:6 NIV). Christianity isn't about gathering accurate doctrine for the sake of possessing accurate doctrine. Accurate doctrine is a means to an end--to be Christ-like. OSAS is a convenient doctrine to rationalize sin and not move on to maturity in Christ and be saved on the Day of Wrath. OSASer's think they are doing a service to God by pushing that belief system as the ultimate grace of God, but any teaching that does not lead people to grow up into Christ is no service to God. A license to sin is not the grace of God. It is entirely against and opposed to the grace of God.

UnderGrace · Sep 17, 2017

I will not buy this falsehood, scripture is clear, as well His spirit bears witness to my spirit I know I have received eternal life....emphasis on eternal being just that!!

Just would like Phart to clarify so that perhaps he can see that that how he is defining the words is not the scriptural definition

Although I think I had this conversation about 500 pages ago LOL

dcontroversal said:

Not By Works

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