Not By Works

[BillG]

What part of Saving Faith is not of yourself, it is a GIFT OF GOD, do you not understand?

Old English Translation:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Modern English Translation:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (GWT)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] It's not the result of anything you've done, so no one can brag about it.


IT IS NOT WITH WHAT LIES BETWEEN YOUR EARS THAT YOU GENUINELY BELIEVE; IT IS WITH WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS BIRTHED IN YOUR HEART.

Romans 10:10-13
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Psalms 51:10
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.

Philippians 4:4-7


4 Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!
5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.
6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

 

[PeterJens]

Let me clarify a few things for you. I am NOT a liar, nor am I a hater of anyone here. I agree with you on the point that we need to walk in God's grace and love and holiness. Secondly, I never said that you're arguing for or against works salvation.. It is just MY own personal belief that we are to strive to become perfect, BUT as humans who sin, that perfection will NOT happen in THIS lifetime. It is impossible to be a perfect mortal in an imperfect fallen world. If God wanted us to be perfect in this world, then He would have made us immortal and would have created an earth untouched by sin.

As far as doing good works, people are naturally inclined to do good things for others, whether they are Christians or not. Our good works will gain us treasures in heaven BUT they are unnecessary to be done for the sole purpose of gaining or keeping salvation.

I am not saying you personally are lying, but too often people have lied about
what I have said and meant without even acknowledging that this is what they
are doing.

The classic phrase is, he denies he is saying this, but this is what he is saying.
Oddly these same people accuse others of telling people what they believe and
complain about this, when this is blatently what they are doing.

It is a straw man, which they then ridicule, which is pointless.

Now I agree that from our perspective the term perfect seems impossible.
I think Jesus uses it differently. Perfect is walking Gods way, and if He
defines it as perfect, it is perfect.

 

[TruthTalk]

To me, the righteousness of God is an expression of His holiness. If God is pure, then He is against or opposed to any and all sin, and He demonstrates His opposition to sin in the manner that He treats us. His actions towards us are always in line with the holiness of His nature. Only God is righteous, WE are not. Apart from God, we can do nothing, and we are nothing.. God is always righteous when He deals with us.

Salvation is a gift freely given once we believe in and have faith in Jesus. It is a lifetime gift, one that cannot be revoked, taken back, lost or "indian given"..

To me, Jesus IS the law. Apart from him, we can do absolutely nothing without Him. But with Him, we can move mountains.

We need Jesus every moment of every moment; who are we without Jesus, lost and doomed.....

Originally Posted by pottersclay

Blue_ladybug is innocent, as we know in scripture " all people who like orange tabbies are innocent."

I love "Orange Tabbies" , God created the world and then, "Orange Tabbies" .....

 

[PeterJens]

There is no one pushing universalism. I have no idea why you are speaking of it.

Unfortunately yes they are. It comes up when people say they believe all sin in the world
is now resolved, for sinners and saints alike. That is a universalist doctrine.
The HG group hold this view, and have repeated it many times.

Equally the same group have continuously repeated they sin 24/7 and have refused to define
any point where they are truly clean.

This comes from a doctrine of orginal sin, inherited from Adam which means we are still sinners
even though washed clean, and will only be clean once we have a new body.
Some hold this is sexual desire, and sex is of itself sinful. Again many hold to this theology as
well.

No condemnation is because we walk in the Spirit. Read beyond verse 1 to verse 4 and you get
Pauls meaning, which most leave out, because quoting the verse this way reassures them, though
is wrong if you walk in the flesh.

Righteous consciousness is rubbish as a distinct idea. Walking in the spirit we are righteous, holy,
and know it. It is not something we have to put on. It only happens when ones conscience is saying
you have unresolved sin present that needs repenting of and dealing with, when these ideas become
spoken of. The heresy is not in confessing sin and getting right with God, but condemning the feelings
as from the enemy, and claiming we are ok in Christ. If you want to defeat believers, get them admiting
everything is alright while they are in sin, which is such a denial of spiritual reality it is tragic.

 

[PeterJens]

I kind of get what you're saying but I will have to digest it a little more.

The analogy Christ uses is having the bath already and just needing your feet cleaned. Maybe you can relate your thoughts in that vein. I'm not challenging you, so don't misunderstand. I think I'm on track with what you're saying.

I agree with you.
When Jesus talked about washing the disciples feet, He illustrates the issue of daily life.
We will often fail in many areas, some may be sin, and some may just be upset or oversight.

Resolving these is a daily task, worthy of sorting out.

 

[VCO]

Salvation is not free because it requires nothing at all. It is free in that it does not require works of righteousness to earn it. But believing is most certainly the requirement to receive the free gift of eternal life. If you do not satisfy that condition for the free gift you will most certainly lose what you had when you did believe.




No, it's quite clear that the warnings are addressed to real believers. You can't lose something you never had in the first place.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15 (ESV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


YOU MISS THE POINT, SALVATION IS NOT A REWARD, such as Crowns; SALVATION IS A UNDESERVED, UNEARNED FREE GIFT. IT SAYS SO.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.


Romans 5:8-10 (ESV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

 

[TruthTalk]

Well, I hope you fare well in attempting to convince him and others of the Gospel.

Imagine, he has finally embraced election, but now he is failing to see the completion of the golden chain of redemption that will be fulfilled unto glorification unto all the elect. Romans 8:28ff.

Isn't this so true, and Abraham was justified by his faith, and so are we. Love that phrase.

"so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 1Peter1:7

 

[blue_ladybug]

You get a rep for saying you love orange kitties...

We need Jesus every moment of every moment; who are we without Jesus, lost and doomed.....

Originally Posted by pottersclay

Blue_ladybug is innocent, as we know in scripture " all people who like orange tabbies are innocent."

I love "Orange Tabbies" , God created the world and then, "Orange Tabbies" .....

 

[blue_ladybug]

You gotta wait a few minutes though. I'm tryin' to get your quote into my signature..lol

You get a rep for saying you love orange kitties... View attachment 174469

 

[TruthTalk]

Isn't this so true, and Abraham was justified by his faith, and so are we. Love that phrase.

"so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 1Peter1:7

I want to apologize and correct my previous post. Abraham was justified by faith, faith is a gift of God.

Abraham Justified by Faith

"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? [SUP]2 [/SUP]If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Romans4:1-3

 

[stonesoffire]

Unfortunately yes they are. It comes up when people say they believe all sin in the world
is now resolved, for sinners and saints alike. That is a universalist doctrine.
The HG group hold this view, and have repeated it many times.

~　
Rom 5:16　 Nor can the free gift be compared to what came through the man who sinned. For the sentence that followed one man's offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift brought justification, even after many offenses.
　
Rom 5:17　 For if, through one man, death ruled because of that man's offense, how much more will those who receive such overflowing grace and the gift of righteousness rule in life because of one man, Jesus the Messiah!
　
Rom 5:18　 Consequently, just as one offense resulted in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in justification and life for everyone.
　
Rom 5:19　 For just as through one man's disobedience many people were made sinners, so also through one man's obedience many people will be made righteous.　

Believe and receive...the condition.

Equally the same group have continuously repeated they sin 24/7 and have refused to define
any point where they are truly clean.

Because natural man has a mindset of sinning and condemnation. Here is where the mind of Christ is effective.

This comes from a doctrine of orginal sin, inherited from Adam which means we are still sinners
even though washed clean, and will only be clean once we have a new body.
Some hold this is sexual desire, and sex is of itself sinful. Again many hold to this theology as
well.

~2Pe 1:3　 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the full knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence.　


2Pe 1:4　 Through these he has given us his precious and wonderful promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, seeing that you have escaped the corruption that is in the world caused by evil desires.　


Rom 5:17　 For if, through one man, death ruled because of that man's offense, how much more will those who receive such overflowing grace and the gift of righteousness rule in life because of one man, Jesus the Messiah!　

No condemnation is because we walk in the Spirit. Read beyond verse 1 to verse 4 and you get
Pauls meaning, which most leave out, because quoting the verse this way reassures them, though
is wrong if you walk in tNhe flesh.

~Life in the Spirit
Rom 8:1　 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in union with the Messiah Jesus.　


Rom 8:2　 For the Spirit's law of life in the Messiah Jesus has set me free from the Law of sin and death.
　
Rom 8:3　 For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did. By sending his own Son in the form of humanity, he condemned sin by being incarnate,　


Rom 8:4　 so that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not live according to human nature but according to the Spirit.

We can freely walk in the Spirit because we are no longer fleshly human natured. Spiritual men and women. We walk in what we are. Out of Spirit.

　

Righteous consciousness is rubbish as a distinct idea. Walking in the spirit we are righteous, holy,
and know it. It is not something we have to put on. It only happens when ones conscience is saying
you have unresolved sin present that needs repenting of and dealing with, when these ideas become
spoken of. The heresy is not in confessing sin and getting right with God, but condemning the feelings
as from the enemy, and claiming we are ok in Christ. If you want to defeat believers, get them admiting
everything is alright while they are in sin, which is such a denial of spiritual reality it is tragic.

If our mind is on sin...we will sin. If our mind is on above? Seated in the heavenly realm with Jesus in His Victory? We will live out of the heavenlies...above and not beneath, the head and not the tail.

Looking unto who?

~Jesus, Founder and Perfecter of Our Faith
Heb 12:1　 Therefore, having so vast a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, and throwing off everything that hinders us and especially the sin that so easily entangles us, let us keep running with endurance the race set before us,
　
Heb 12:2　 fixing our attention on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of the faith, who, in view of the joy set before him, endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.　

Throw off everything and look above!

And don't call rubbish what will save.

 

[PeterJens]

Very very sad to read this Ben

Why are you sad? Truly how should this affect someones salvation.
I think this shows how distorted and out of balance you are.

Ben is testifying to the balance of scripture. What he is saying is simply true, yet
you regard it as a defeat and a loss. That is sad, because it summarises the emotional
implications of such a view and how it effects groups and creates division where there
should be none.

 

[PeterJens]

~　
Rom 5:16　 Nor can the free gift be compared to what came through the man who sinned. For the sentence that followed one man's offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift brought justification, even after many offenses.
.......
And don't call rubbish what will save.

Sorry, righteousness consciousness does not save, Jesus through the cross does.

Not sure what else you are trying to say.

The natural man does not exist. The carnal man, the man of the lusts of this world,
does. But we are still human and walking in the Spirit, Holy, pure and clean.

We could not be temples of the living God unless this was true.
But maybe you are not a temple of God.

 

[dcontroversal]

You who talk about verb tense, note that 'saved' and 'hold fast' are in the PRESENT tense:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are (presently) saved, if you (presently) hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)


​

Did you not know this? Check it out for yourself, you who like to play the verb tense card (without examples) to defend your argument: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/1/t_conc_1077002

The person who is presently holding fast the word is presently saved. Do you say that is not true? What Paul said makes it so that you HAVE to be presently believing to be presently saved, or else what he said is not true.




A former believer is NOT secure in Christ. The former believer who goes back to his unbelief does not have the sacrifice of Christ remaining on his behalf. He loses it. That's why he then becomes subject to the wrath of God that the blood of Jesus once rescued him from. Read it. These are the plain words of scripture:

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THEFURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES." (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB)
​

Are you afraid of these words because you are afraid you will stop believing and go back to your sins because of trials and troubles and the desires for this life? Don't be afraid, just keep trusting/believing in Christ to keep you able to believe in his blood, and his sacrifice will REMAIN for you and you will be rescued from the coming wrath. You only have to be afraid if you stop believing and trusting in God's power because His power works "through faith" (1 Peter 1:5).





Yes....kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:5). Is it sinking in yet?




Yes, we know this is your belief. But yet again, you post no substance to prove your point. Simply restating your argument without supporting scripture is not useful.

Try again this time using the inspired Greek aorist verb tense and not an English translation.......and like I said...if you think you help JESUS keep yourself....good luck in the plenteous in number......no matter how you lice and dice your view negates the power of Christ to KEEP YOU and places it into your hands....a works based false gospel....

 

[dcontroversal]

What part of Saving Faith is not of yourself, it is a GIFT OF GOD, do you not understand?

Old English Translation:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Modern English Translation:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (GWT)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] It's not the result of anything you've done, so no one can brag about it.


IT IS NOT WITH WHAT LIES BETWEEN YOUR EARS THAT YOU GENUINELY BELIEVE; IT IS WITH WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS BIRTHED IN YOUR HEART.

All of it or so it seems.....We are kept by the power of GOD is clear.....saved to the uttermost is clear...I will LOSE NOTHING is clear....SEALED unto the day of redemption is clear....in the Father's hand is clear....in the Son's hand is clear...NOTHING shall separate us from the love of Christ is clear........inspired Aorist verb tense is clear.....eternal life is clear....everlasting life is clear.....and yet he has to help JESUS do all of it.....his Jesus is weak and inept.....

 

[dcontroversal]

John 3:16, partially paraphrased:

"That all who BELIEVE in Me shall be saved".

Notice that verse does NOT say, those who KEEP BELIEVING in me shall be saved.


Just saying..

AMEN and the inspired GREEK verb tense of John 3:16 emphatically sets forth a present continuing result from a past completed action......I.E> a one time action of belief with a present continuing result of salvation and eternal life......ONCE FOR ALL.....of course the workers for must help their version of JESUS because they do not believe the real JESUS and his promises......

 

[dcontroversal]

Jesus did the work, He did the teaching, He did the convincing. But I chose to trust in him.

He proved faithfull, and he always is faithful, so once I have faith in him, I will never lose it, HE NEVER GIVES ME A REASON TOO, unlike human parents, human friends and human spouses who are not very trustworthy who gives us all kinds of reasons, LOSE FAITH IN HIM.

Your trying to humanize God, saying he is not triustworthy (by your very words claiming one can lose faith)

and as we see, your also just trying to fight calvanism. Until you make this a "word of God" issue, and not a "Fight Calanistic viewpoint" issue at all costs, I fear you will never understand.

Remember what Jesus said about the ditch and the working for self justified Pharisees.....they did not need Jesus either......

 

[dcontroversal]

It is crazy, I stand before God, all my sin is forgiven, He looks at my works, and says depart from me, for I knew you at one time, but you lost faith in me, so I left you go, You should have kept trusting me. But you did not, so depart!

"But God you promised you would never let go"

God reply, I did, But you pulled yourself away from me, I tried to hold on tight, but you overpowered me. I could not hold on anymore.

I know....the power of his god must be comparable to a half used AAA battery....MINE KEEPS ME BY HIS POWER HE began, will finish and COMPLETE the work of faith he began in me......to say he starts faith and then we can forfeit it is to call JESUS a liar.....and clearly denies the bolded....

 

[UnderGrace]

I think this shows how distorted and out of balance you are.

Well thank you, I never knew that concern and compassion for a brother's struggles makes one distorted and out of balance

No worries not offended

Why are you sad? Truly how should this affect someones salvation.
I think this shows how distorted and out of balance you are.

Ben is testifying to the balance of scripture. What he is saying is simply true, yet
you regard it as a defeat and a loss. That is sad, because it summarises the emotional
implications of such a view and how it effects groups and creates division where there
should be none.

 

[loveme1]

Remember what Jesus said about the ditch and the working for self justified Pharisees.....they did not need Jesus either......

Name the person here who does not need Jesus?