Not By Works

loveme1 · Sep 20, 2017

VCO said:

There is a New Testament my dear and you should know what Romans 3:20 means.

Because here is Scripture to affirm not contradict...

James 2
8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Now if I had proposed circumcision to be saved you could of reminded me of Romans 3:20.... but now you have shown ignorance of the Truth preferring to throw a verse that you obviously can not apply correctly. To live by Faith.. do you know that we will be judged by the law of liberty? And the bar is raised.. because we are not to even respect a person more than another.. we are to love GOD and each other.

PHart · Sep 20, 2017

TruthTalk said:

I wasn't saying Galatians 5:6 shows that works keep us saved. Galatians 5:6 shows us that the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that will then be seen in it's obedience to the command to love (a.k.a works).

Justification by faith, apart from works, comes first. Obedience then follows justification because the faith that justifies is the faith that will then work. But so many in the church seem convinced that dead faith (faith without works) is also the faith that justifies even though it can not be validated as being justifying faith by what it does . Works are required in salvation because that's what justifying faith does (see the Galatians 5:6 verse I posted), NOT BECAUSE WORKS HAVE POWER TO MAKE ONE RIGHTEOUS. But over and over and over people keep hearing that as 'works justify/save'.

This is getting back to what Jens was saying, I think. We didn't just receive a legal declaration of righteousness when we received Christ's righteousness. We were also quite literally given the righteousness of God via the Holy Spirit when we believed. That means we now begin to have righteous deeds because we have the righteousness of God in us via the Holy Spirit. But so many Christians instead accept the defeated, lifeless, fruitless life they've had all along and consider the suggestion that you could actually live a righteous life impossible, EVEN BLASPHEMOUS. It's like they think Jesus was just speaking theoretically when he spoke of the fourth type of soil--a nice idea, but forget about ever getting there folks. Not in this life.

TruthTalk said:

No, what's happening is you're still misunderstanding my posts. Doing works of righteousness did not justify us before God when we first got saved, nor will they keep us justified. Works are the footsteps that justifying faith leaves behind. If a person's faith does not leave footprints like Abraham's faith did--the footsteps of obedience--then that person does not have the faith of Abraham, the faith that justifies. Speaking generally, of course.

PHart · Sep 20, 2017

VCO said:

Most Christians it seems instantly react to the fact that we uphold the law by our faith (Romans 3:31) as that meaning we are justified (made righteous) by what we do. They seem to only be able to understand the requirement for works in salvation as those works earning that salvation, not knowing that works are required because that's what the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works does--it works. That's because justified people have the Holy Spirit of righteousness inside of them now leading them into works of righteousness. People who don't work (generally speaking) are simply showing they do not have the Holy Spirit inside of them in a justification by faith apart from works (Romans 4:6).

This lack of knowledge about the justified person having not only a legal declaration of righteousness, but also the Spirit of righteousness within them moving them to works of righteousness is profound and widespread in the church. It has given rise to false doctrines that now make the dead faith that James talks about able to save, too, even though he plainly says it can not. It's gotten so bad in the church that now many Christians believe that even the person who goes back to unbelief is still saved! But we can't discuss that doctrine in this forum.

PHart · Sep 20, 2017

preacher4truth said:

I really did show it's there. Hebrews 10 itself defines it's own use of 'sanctified' as the sanctification of salvation. Sanctified, saved people who willingly go back to their old lives in unbelief will be destroyed, not saved on the Day of Wrath.

Don't get swept up in a particular doctrine just because it's popular even among the leadership. If everyone in the church had continued to do that in Luther's day we would not even be having this discussion. A few men saw a verse of scripture that the church leadership at large could not see and the Reformation was the result. So don't rely on popularity and majority of 'authoritative' opinion in these kinds of things to determine truth.

For example, look at what the church at large has done with tithing. Why is it that the officially accepted teaching about it seems oblivious to the fact that it is plainly written in the law (where tithing comes from) that you consume your own tithe? For those who believe we should tithe, are we to blindly follow the majority in this matter? No, we are to be Bereans and search these matters out for ourselves without the glasses of popular theologians teachings on our eyes.

TruthTalk · Sep 20, 2017

PHart said:

I wasn't saying Galatians 5:6 shows that works keep us saved. Galatians 5:6 shows us that the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that will then be seen in it's obedience to the command to love (a.k.a works).

Justification by faith, apart from works, comes first. Obedience then follows justification because the faith that justifies is the faith that will then work. But so many in the church seem convinced that dead faith (faith without works) is also the faith that justifies even though it can not be validated as being justifying faith by what it does . Works are required in salvation because that's what justifying faith does (see the Galatians 5:6 verse I posted), NOT BECAUSE WORKS HAVE POWER TO MAKE ONE RIGHTEOUS. But over and over and over people keep hearing that as 'works justify/save'.

This is getting back to what Jens was saying, I think. We didn't just receive a legal declaration of righteousness when we received Christ's righteousness. We were also quite literally given the righteousness of God via the Holy Spirit when we believed. That means we now begin to have righteous deeds because we have the righteousness of God in us via the Holy Spirit. But so many Christians instead accept the defeated, lifeless, fruitless life they've had all along and consider the suggestion that you could actually live a righteous life impossible, EVEN BLASPHEMOUS. It's like they think Jesus was just speaking theoretically when he spoke of the fourth type of soil--a nice idea, but forget about ever getting there folks. Not in this life.

No, what's happening is you're still misunderstanding my posts. Doing works of righteousness did not justify us before God when we first got saved, nor will they keep us justified. Works are the footsteps that justifying faith leaves behind. If a person's faith does not leave footprints like Abraham's faith did--the footsteps of obedience--then that person does not have the faith of Abraham, the faith that justifies. Speaking generally, of course.

Okay and Good Morning, Quote: "No, what's happening is you're still misunderstanding my posts." Thank you for being reasonable about this, like I said your a good guy I just want to know where you stand on the issue; "can someone lose there salvation." So Let it stand at that it was a misunderstanding......

PeterJens · Sep 20, 2017

Being honest, losing faith is a hard thing to quantify.
How do you define a divorce? It is disagreements and splits in attitude, affection, direction,
empathy, openness, truth, hurtful things said and done etc.

So Jesus talks about those who aspire, who start but never finish, who catch the flame,
but smother it before it takes a real grip.

God does bring us into the Kingdom if love takes hold in our hearts and starts to work.
Those who say they are saved without this happening are just deluded and not part
of the process.

It is like a gardener who plants a tree that withers and dies saying it is still underground
about to pop up when the truth is, it has died. Love is not difficult to spot, but excuses
for why people live with sin and compromise abound, which is why the Lord will say,
"I never knew you, you evil doers."

There is always a sense of strangeness in Christ, He is very other. How many people in your
life do you really know? Yet you claim to know the complete heart of Christ !
That is very bold. I might agree if you can speak the words He spoke and did the things He
did.

PeterJens · Sep 20, 2017

dcontroversal said:

The inept view of God is those who refuse to acknowledge God has brought believers
into the Holy of Holies and asks us to walk with Him.

No, these believers bring in their dirty laundary, their persistent sinful behaviour, deny
Gods words, commands and love, and claim they are the authority and source of wisdom
by which people should live, in sin and failure, as if this is the promise of the cross.

Make no mistake I know my soul, my heart, my sin, my failure, my frailty, my need, my desires,
and I know the burn up in love and praise when I see my Lord and what He has done.

Rich or poor, in sickness or in health, He is the Messiah, the Lord of All, King of All, lover of
men and saviour who leads His people out of darkness into His light. Amen.

Life is full of frustration, limitations, binding difficulty, which we can bring to the foot of the
cross, and realise God had to come and die to set us free, there was no other way.

Do you understand? The Lord of all knew there was no other way to bring us through.
It is not inept, this is Gods wisdom and Gods work, because love is paramount, not power,
privilege, an easy life, intelligence, status, rank, family, but Him and the desire to see love
worked out among people.

PeterJens · Sep 20, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

There is a real truth here. If words build a picture but to see it you must not destroy it as
it forms, ofcourse with bias and disbelief the picture never becomes clear.

It is why the bible is a spiritual book. One can feel the words, but not see how they hang
together because they speak of things unknown.

As you become the very things spoken of, the words fit because they chart out the very thing
one has become in Christ.

So here is the dilemma. Not seeing something does not mean it is not their, but rather one does
not have the capacity to perceive it.

A long time ago I began to realise the bible is a lifetimes work, and only near the end will the picture
shine, because so much is discrete, pointing at nuances, brush strokes, light emphasis here, and
a bold line there. You are talking the book of the creator, so you would expect nothing else.

And those who capture His heart, are those to whom He will show it. What a King and friend we
have in Him.

And His enemies would destroy Him if they could, because they do not see the interplay and
the whole, just opportunity to exploit and dominate. Such is the way of sin and selfishness.

PeterJens · Sep 20, 2017

PHart said:

Unfortunately much of the audience is not interested in truth just their preaching of their
understanding. Growth in Christ and walking more deeply with Him do not interest them
because they have arrived and everything is settled till they die.

All that is needed is to prune the church and they are so well equipped to do this, they
intend to make sure the right people are encouraged and the wrong people thrown out.

If they could, those so marked, their number has already come up.
lol. In their fatalistic world of God controlled salvation, it is a wonder their man based
building and pruning is not seen as heresy, because it is by its nature founded purely on
their labelling, and their absolute ability to judge correctly. Wonder who claimed to deal
with christians like this in church history????

PeterJens · Sep 20, 2017

How do you know you are loved?

People say nice things about you.

How do you know you are hated?

The smallest possible thing that could be wrong is turned into the biggest issue
imaginable and you are beaten with it like it is the worst crime on the planet.

It does not take long to realise who is who. And the question is why?
Because the words one shares makes them feel uncomfortable, it provokes response
and change.

One contributor gets so irrate, if they read the words, they go totally angry and agressive.

And what is so hard to take. We are Holy, pure, loved, righteous people in the Holy Spirit
through the cross of Christ.

Now only those who do not see or feel this will object. So there you have it.
Saints or sinners, redeemed and faithful, or in darkness and feeling condemned.

If the Holy Spirit does not condemn you, why should you feel you have issues?
If you are being condemned by the Lord, repent and get it sorted. Only then will
you find rest. This is the eternal nature of the reality of sin and resolution.

If you have never learnt this, do you know Jesus and do you want to know Him?
The joy of the freedom of forgiveness, and redemption is like having a child born
to you, you are on cloud nine and life will never be the same again, Hallelujah.

I do not know your state dear reader, nor am I standing in judgement over you.
You are doing this to yourself as guided by God. So listen to Him. Work it through,
and you will find peace.

We cannot change these Kingdom realities, just submit to them, and walk in the Kingdom
of Jesus Christ as we are called, Amen. I am merely a sinner turned saint, a person in
need fulfilled, a healed remade lost individual, brought close by the cross of Christ. Amen

VCO · Sep 20, 2017

loveme1 said:

You almost had that first statement right. But the little word "that" makes it works righteousness false doctrine, however when replace the "that" with the words "who will", then you have absolute TRUTH.

His work and Promises are to those who will Love and obey Him..

Romans 5:6-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For while we were still helpless, at the appointed moment, Christ died for the ungodly.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For rarely will someone die for a just person—though for a good person perhaps someone might even dare to die.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, ⌊then how⌋ much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life!
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ. We have now received this reconciliation through Him.

SEE, no way can we claim to have any part of our SALVATION. WE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD, THE MOMENT JESUS CHRIST DIED. How is that possibly? God foreknows those who will genuinely choose to believe in the Messiah, Jesus Christ, so far in advance, that it says HE wrote our names in the Book of Life, before HE formed the World. Isn't it shocking then, that many still want to claim they have a part in getting saved and keeping it?

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Romans 3:21-30 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] But now, apart from the law, God’s righteousness has been revealed—attested by the Law and the Prophets
[SUP]22 [/SUP] —that is, God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe {NOT OUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS IS IMPUTED TO US}, since there is no distinction.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] ⌊God presented Him⌋ to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By one of works? No, on the contrary, by a law of faith.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Or is God for Jews only? Is He not also for Gentiles? Yes, for Gentiles too,
[SUP]30 [/SUP] since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

VCO · Sep 20, 2017

loveme1 said:

"Ye do well", does equate to I helped to get myself SAVED, or helped KEEP MY SAVED. In fact Keeping the Royal Law has NOTHING to do with SALVATION. It does have to do with Heavenly Rewards such as Crowns (Laurel Wreath Crowns given to the winning athlete); HOWEVER, you win ONLY IF YOUR MOTIVE is purely out of SINCERE LOVE FOR OTHERS. If you did them to try to manipulate HIM into giving you a prize, YOU LOSE, and it is wood, hay, and stubble that will be burned up.

NOW let's LOOK at verse 10 that you conveniently over-looked:

James 2:10 (NCV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] A person who follows all of God’s law but fails to obey even one command is guilty of breaking all the commands in that law.

LET'S PUT THAT TO THE TEST, TO SEE HOW GUILTY YOU REALLY ARE?

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

Okey, now examine yourself. The Posted Speed Limit is an Ordinance of Man.

NOW if that is your car that just tripped that electronic speed sign, you are as GUILTY of breaking all of GOD's Laws as the worst mass murderer is on Death Row. Even if it was only 1 MPH over the Posted Speed Limit.

THINK ABOUT IT.

loveme1 · Sep 20, 2017

VCO said:

You almost had that first statement right. But the little word "that" makes it works righteousness false doctrine, however when replace the "that" with the words "who will", then you have absolute TRUTH.

His work and Promises are to those who will Love and obey Him..

Romans 5:6-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For while we were still helpless, at the appointed moment, Christ died for the ungodly.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For rarely will someone die for a just person—though for a good person perhaps someone might even dare to die.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, ⌊then how⌋ much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life!
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ. We have now received this reconciliation through Him.

SEE, no way can we claim to have any part of our SALVATION. WE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD, THE MOMENT JESUS CHRIST DIED. How is that possibly? God foreknows those who will genuinely choose to believe in the Messiah, Jesus Christ, so far in advance, that it says HE wrote our names in the Book of Life, before HE formed the World. Isn't it shocking then, that many still want to claim they have a part in getting saved and keeping it?

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Romans 3:21-30 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] But now, apart from the law, God’s righteousness has been revealed—attested by the Law and the Prophets
[SUP]22 [/SUP] —that is, God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe {NOT OUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS IS IMPUTED TO US}, since there is no distinction.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] ⌊God presented Him⌋ to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By one of works? No, on the contrary, by a law of faith.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Or is God for Jews only? Is He not also for Gentiles? Yes, for Gentiles too,
[SUP]30 [/SUP] since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

The Law of Faith... do you know what this is? The works of the law from Romans is in reference to the Law of Moses.

I won't back and forth with Scrioture because it all affirms the issue is interpretation and we share what we have received and should not be hateful.

Hebrews 5

7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

loveme1 · Sep 20, 2017

VCO said:

"Ye do well", does equate to I helped to get myself SAVED, or helped KEEP MY SAVED. In fact Keeping the Royal Law has NOTHING to do with SALVATION. It does have to do with Heavenly Rewards such as Crowns (Laurel Wreath Crowns given to the winning athlete); HOWEVER, you win ONLY IF YOUR MOTIVE is purely out of SINCERE LOVE FOR OTHERS. If you did them to try to manipulate HIM into giving you a prize, YOU LOSE, and it is wood, hay, and stubble that will be burned up.

NOW let's LOOK at verse 10 that you conveniently over-looked:

James 2:10 (NCV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] A person who follows all of God’s law but fails to obey even one command is guilty of breaking all the commands in that law.

LET'S PUT THAT TO THE TEST, TO SEE HOW GUILTY YOU REALLY ARE?

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

Okey, now examine yourself. The Posted Speed Limit is an Ordinance of Man.

NOW if that is your car that just tripped that electronic speed sign, you are as GUILTY of breaking all of GOD's Laws as the worst mass murderer is on Death Row. Even if it was only 1 MPH over the Posted Speed Limit.

THINK ABOUT IT.

I have shared with you the New Testament.

Now before I was speeding through all those... heading for destruction.. but by GOD's Grace I'm now in Christs car being driven on a different road.. by the power of GOD ... what am I to do as a passenger? Listen to the driver who wants to get me Home safely. I love the driver who saved me and I love my Heavenly Father who sent His Trusted Good driver to collect me and awaits my arrival.

PeterJens · Sep 20, 2017

VCO said:

This is a statement that is absurd. Following this logic, if they deny God we have to deny
God.

The verse says this

Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.
2 Peter 2:13-14

Peter is showing that the authority of man is important to respect because it is given
by God, but not everything they set is right or commendable.

Speed limits are one area which most struggle with, the power of vehicals and the
restrictions for safety. Unfortunately speed is just one of the issues.
If you extend sin into this kind of area, it becomes very legalistic.

The problem with the heart of many is they are looking for problems not looking to
honour love and the King.

loveme1 · Sep 20, 2017

PeterJens said:

Thanks Peter I did not grasp that from the post.. very absurd.. and legalistic.. I thought it was an analogy... as in one sin make you guilty of all..

and speeding.. well I'm often told by passengers I drive too slow.. one even said they could walk quicker.. and that is because I abide by the speed limit but every so often it does creep over and I'm quick to slow right back down.. hehe

dcontroversal · Sep 20, 2017

PeterJens said:

One of these days you might have something of value to add to the conversation.....highly unlikely though seeing how the cross is not enough for you, faith and assurance in Jesus is an idol and the imputed righteousness of Christ is a neat little trick that does not work...until you get these three right.......you are like an arrow with 1 to 3 vanes missing......off target and missing the mark.........I am sorry...nothing you say to me will carry any water Peter until you acknowledge the truth concerning the bolded.....

dcontroversal · Sep 20, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

Amen.....eternal does not mean temporary....unless you believe you can negate the promises of Christ, serve a god that fails, is weak, inept and has no ability to keep his word.......

blue_ladybug · Sep 20, 2017

I wish chocolate and coffee were eternal.. lol

eternally-gratefull · Sep 20, 2017

dcontroversal said:

It is nuts, i can not get what people think,

I either HAVE ETERNAL life, or I DO NOT

there is no in between.

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