ROMANS 1

[followjesus]

Well gentlemen, I see the fundamental problem as one of a suppressed conscience. When the human conscience fails to hold then neither will core values. The world no longer recognizes a revealed universal standard of morality.

amen that is very astute observation. i remeber madylyn murray ohair and the rise of the american athiests as ot pertains to my nation the U.s.... I remeber some of Her speeches watching them a few years after Her disappearance, when She Moved and succesfuly got prayer and Biblical teaching out of schools i really see a decline Now today we have school shootings on a pretty regular basis, we have legalized and Justified Gay marriage to the point that if you disagree with it you are a bigot in the crowds eyes. Marriage now seems to be until "im unhappy do we part" rather than a sacred Lifetime commitment. wherever Gods word is less taught, Morality declines and the conscious reaps the harvest.

 

[followjesus]

You are correct notmyown, it is written specifically to the apostate Jews, as is all of the first part of Romans really.

or at least, they are the focus

thats not at all true, its written to christians whether jew or Gentile. the very substance of the first to chapters speciffically addresses the gentiles from the introduction forward, whats written to One is written to all there is no difference in Jew or gentile its really one of the main points of those chapters.

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared to bethe Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ."

Pauls message was never written to apostate Jews, His message was that both Jew and Gentile are the same to God.

v 14 "Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. "

v 16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

2:5-11 "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God.


People need to get away from deciding whats addressed specifically to this or that group its all to the One church. whether jew or gentile there is no difference from the Moment Jesus began preaching its all meant for all men, regardless of color, dreed , social status, gender, Jew or gentile. its all specifically written to Believers.

 

[J7]

@followJesus

No, it really was written to the Jews primarily, that is to say, as I already said, as the primary focus. Of course it has great importance to the Nations as well, but when it was written, it was primarily to the Jews; 'to the Jew first'

 

[graceNpeace]

@followJesus

No, it really was written to the Jews primarily, that is to say, as I already said, as the primary focus. Of course it has great importance to the Nations as well, but when it was written, it was primarily to the Jews; 'to the Jew first'

You are pulling a text well out of context here; the phrase 'to the Jew first' from Rom 1:16 has nothing to do with the readers of this Epistle (even if some of them were Jews as was almost certainly the case) but refers to the fact the Jew benefitted first from the Gospel, followed by the Greek.
This is a backward glance summarising an evident history not a reference to the readers to whom this Epistle was sent.

 

[J7]

How can you suppose I am pulling it out of context when you haven't identified the original context?

You are pulling a text well out of context here; the phrase 'to the Jew first' from Rom 1:16 has nothing to do with the readers of this Epistle (even if some of them were Jews as was almost certainly the case) but refers to the fact the Jew benefitted first from the Gospel, followed by the Greek.
This is a backward glance summarising an evident history not a reference to the readers to whom this Epistle was sent.

 

[graceNpeace]

How can you suppose I am pulling it out of context when you haven't identified the original context?

Well, you used that phrase to try and justify the position that Romans was written primarily to a Jewish audience - did you not?
The phrase comes from Rom 1:16 and it has nothing to say about the audience for whom the Epistle was intended.
The Epistle was written to believers in Rome (obviously including Jewish believers) but it cannot be said that the epistle was written primary for Jews.

 

[J7]

The phrase is also used in Romans 2

 

[graceNpeace]

The phrase is also used in Romans 2

Indeed, but it still doesn't mean what you are asserting.

 

[hornetguy]

And let's not forger the wild west.

You mean, Detroit?

The "wild west" was NOTHING compared to Detroit.

The biggest problem with the settling of the west was the lack of "lawkeepers".... this led people to settle problems themselves, instead of letting the relatively few "bad" characters run rough-shod over everyone.

Look at the crime statistics for just one weekend in Detroit in today's world.... makes the wild west look pretty tame.

 

[preacher4truth]

@followJesus

No, it really was written to the Jews primarily, that is to say, as I already said, as the primary focus. Of course it has great importance to the Nations as well, but when it was written, it was primarily to the Jews; 'to the Jew first'

You're pulling out a phrase of Scripture to support you, not to support the context. That's not practicing 2 Timothy 2:15 brother.

The phrase "to the Jew first" is not intended as proof, nor is it proof of your theory, especially in light of the fact Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles. Therefore Paul is not addressing his audience and saying, in essence, and as you are implying; "I am writing this epistle primarily to you Jews."

The Gospel was first preached to the Jews, who rejected it, hence the phrase "to the Jew first." It is also to the Gentiles, who were receiving it. Therefore we have Romans 1:16 "to everyone who believes." The Gospel is for everyone, the epistle was then primarily for everyone, not primarily to one group, the Jews. That era had ended.

 

[hornetguy]

written by Horace, in 20 BC

Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'. We, their sons, are more
worthless than they; so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more
corrupt.
​

Seems to be a repetitive pattern here...

 

[NayborBear]

I think increasingly in the last 75 to 50 years, the country has been steadily moving from freedom of religion to freedom from religion. I think that is very much what Romans 1 is about.

Tis even more then freedom from "religion!" As time (apostasy) goes on? Becoming increasingly clearer, that every "religion" that separates itself from the God of Israel? Has become the "cutting edge", and banner for our enemies! Christianity, is much stronger, then it have been seduced into believing!

 

[J7]

The point Paul is making is that the judgement of Jerusalem and Judea will impact those who follow Judaism.
So the letter is written about the Jews and for the Jews, a last call to repent really.

Of course it is also written for all the Church; the judgement was also intended for the Church and World to witness. Paul is explaining the whole process.

You are pulling a text well out of context here; the phrase 'to the Jew first' from Rom 1:16 has nothing to do with the readers of this Epistle (even if some of them were Jews as was almost certainly the case) but refers to the fact the Jew benefitted first from the Gospel, followed by the Greek.
This is a backward glance summarising an evident history not a reference to the readers to whom this Epistle was sent.

 

[graceNpeace]

No. The point Paul is making is that the judgement of Jerusalem and Judea will impact those who follow Judaism.
So the letter is written about the Jews and for the Jews, a last call to repent really.

Of course it is also written for all the Church; the judgement was also intended for the Church and World to witness. So Paul is explaining the whole process.

I will not continue to argue with you - you are welcome to your opinions - true or not...

 

[J7]

You raise a good point. It is probably confusing to say the primary audience was the Jews.

The audience is everyone: but Paul has a very urgent message for the Jews, as judgement comes to the Jew first, so the Jews are the primary audience, but not necessarily the most important audience.

 

[preacher4truth]

You raise a good point. It is probably confusing to say the primary audience was the Jews.

It's untrue which is why it is confusing. Romans 1:16 isn't conveying a primary audience.

The audience is everyone: but Paul has a very urgent message for the Jews, as judgement comes to the Jew first, so the Jews are the primary audience, but not necessarily the most important audience.

The primary audience is not the Jews and the Scripture you use to support it was not written for that purpose, this point is clear brother.

Now you're saying "...judgment comes to the Jew first" and that somehow this makes them the primary audience.

No, brother, you're reaching in attempt to make your theory correct. You've misspoken, and we all do it and you're therefore incorrect on this issue. Nothing in the text supports this, you are attempting to force your ideas into the text that are not there. You're not practicing 2 Timothy 2:15 brother.

 

[J7]

Ok, I hear you. But I beg to differ.

The whole point of Romans is contained in Chapter 1 verse 8.
When you understand this verse, then you can see Paul's overall intent.

The key thing to remember is that Romans was written circa AD58, and the judgement of apostate Judea would begin in AD67.

Paul was a very complex writer though, so it is dangerous to pin him down to one thing. Romans hits many targets, but be absolutely clear about this, Paul's first and absolutely main, indeed sole target in one sense, is apostate Jewry.

It's untrue which is why it is confusing. Romans 1:16 isn't conveying a primary audience.



The primary audience is not the Jews and the Scripture you use to support it was not written for that purpose, this point is clear brother.

Now you're saying "...judgment comes to the Jew first" and that somehow this makes them the primary audience.

No, brother, you're reaching in attempt to make your theory correct. You've misspoken, and we all do it and you're therefore incorrect on this issue. Nothing in the text supports this, you are attempting to force your ideas into the text that are not there. You're not practicing 2 Timothy 2:15 brother.

 

[preacher4truth]

Ok, I hear you. But I beg to differ.

I know, you're still refusing context for your point.

The whole point of Romans is contained in Chapter 1 verse 8.
When you understand this verse, then you can see Paul's overall intent.

I'd put forward that Romans 1:16 is more in that position than 1:8. Brother, there is no need to imply that I don't understand a verse, that is quite an underhanded remark. I have been quite forward about your mistake: Romans 1:16 is not saying what you are making it to say. This has been clearly shown you.

The key thing to remember is that Romans was written circa AD58, and the judgement of apostate Judea would begin in AD67.

Actually they were already under judgment.

Paul was a very complex writer though, so it is dangerous to pin him down to one thing.

Seriously? That is descriptive of exactly what you've been doing all along! Thus some have sought to correct you on your insistence that the epistle is primarily for the Jews when Paul said none of this whatsoever, nor has it ever been implied.

Romans hits many targets, but be absolutely clear about this, Paul's first and absolutely main, indeed sole target in one sense, is apostate Jewry.

See? There you go, by your own rule, and breaking it, "pinning Paul down to one thing."

Brother, with all due respect, none of Rom,ans 1:16 proves your point, and it isn't there. Not going another round with you on this as even your own rules show yourself to be the one breaking them.

You can get your last word in, there is no need to convince a man with proper Scripture context as when doing so would only serve to convince him against his own will.

 

[oldhermit]

What I have noticed is that most people who read or teach verses 18-32, generally tend to focus on this list of recorded sins, with particular emphasis on the sin of homosexuality. I am not criticizing this approach to these verses. It is important that the types of behaviors be addressed and confronted so, focusing our attention on these sins does absolutely nothing to address the heart of the issue. All this does is treat the symptoms and leaves the disease untouched and intact. All of the sins cataloged in this segment, including the sin of homosexuality are not the problem, they are merely a symptom of a much deeper problem. What we must do is attack the disease at its nucleus by generalizing to some of the fundamental principles that create these types of behaviors that led to the four stages of terminal social decline.

What we see here is an incline to the lowest element. In these verses we can generalize first to the fact that the suppression of the human conscience is fundamentally necessary for the reversal of a revealed standard of morality. If you want to separate morality from the minds of people, you must first sear the conscience against all moral standards, and this begins with an assault on revealed truths. This reduction of human existence to its lowest element suppresses even the most obvious knowledge of what is right and wrong and it does this through the suppression of the human conscience. The social conscience has become so badly deteriorated that many are no longer even able to distinguish the difference between male and female. This is one of the most basic and obvious truths of the natural world. Truth does not get much more basic than this.

 

[Depleted]

The Book of Romans is not a book to use for pithy Chinese fortune cookies' sayings. It is a treatise about God. First, it tells the condition of Man compared to the Lord. It goes into great detail how Man kept coming up with ways to make peace with God without actually following God. On Man's part, it goes through great details -- for the Jews and Gentiles -- how we failed. We always failed. We always fail. We will always fail. That is the history of Man left alone.

Then it tells what God has done about it. What God is doing about it. What God will do about it, and frankly God is enternal, while we're finite, so God has always alwaysed.

Then it tells what we should do about it when we commit to following God.

It is the treatise for the Christian faith, and everything about God. Let's try not to shove our personal treatises in it, because frankly, the first long section, (Romans 1-7) tells how that always fails.